Rosenritter
New member
Are you that unwilling to ever get along that you would make such a statement?
Robert's Gospel According to the Apostle Paul
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Are you that unwilling to ever get along that you would make such a statement?
You, nor anyone else has no idea whatsoever how many people died in the flood.
End of an age, not world
(Matt24:3) As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
The end of the age was the end of the Old Covenant.
It happened in 70AD
They asked Him when the end of the age would be, not the end of the world.
The end of the age (old covenant) had no bearing on the rest of the Gentile world, it only pertained to the Jews.
Word: aiwn
Pronounce: ahee-ohn'
Strongs Number: G165
Orig: from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550. G104
Um, thats because the Romans started killing the Jews outside of Jerusalem in Judaea, when they entered Judaea, while on their way to the city.
Rosenritter
New member
We do know that men were "multiplied" (Gen 6:1) and that the scale was planetary.
The Old Covenant was terminated when the temple veil was rent, when they murdered the other party to the covenant. Covenants last "until death do us part." Zechariah 11:11 says "it was broken in that day" in the context of "so they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver." If the Old Covenant is "an age" then that age ended at the cross.
The destruction of Jerusalem was the not end of an age. It broke the back of Jewish pride and culture and fulfilled other signs, but it was not the end of an age, unless you thought Jerusalem was the entire world. I mean age. "The age of Jerusalem?" Then why the description of Christ's return and his holy angels?
Whatever. No age ended in 70 AD.
I thought you said that the only thing that counted was within city limits? Yet now you are conceding that tribulation can apply outside the bounds of a city. So why should the tribulation of Europe not be counted as tribulation that likewise caused grief, but for many people, on greater scale, and for longer time?
It was the end of an age, the old covenant.
Ok, let's talk about it.
The Jews. They were the only people at the time under the old covenant.
Correct. The tares (wicked) are burned up first.
Correct. The unbelieving Jews who killed Christ Jesus were no more.
Nope.
The seven angels of the seven trumpets and bowls of Revelation.
The unbelieving Jews.
No, the Christians are the wheat.
No, that would be the Christian church.
No, it all aligns perfectly with scripture.
The prophecy was for that city.
Correct. It was the Old Covenant that ended in 70AD
Yes He did.
It doesn't say the dead meet Him in the air.
Rosenritter
New member
Where were these angels? I don't think anyone heard any angels or any trumpets.
The ROMAN church went out to shine brightly as the sun? The Dark Ages are your idea of shining brightly?
What sign do you have to show the covenant ended then? The temple had been destroyed in times prior, and that didn't end the covenant. What is the base minimum you need to have a covenant?
Does your scripture have 1 Thessalonians?
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Don't be ignorant.... the dead will rise to meet Christ in the air when he returns. It's not the type of thing that doesn't get noticed.
Doesn't matter. You nor anyone else knows how many people died in the flood.
The 7 feasts were part of the OC. Christ Jesus fulfilled the first 4 during His Incarnation. The 3 fall feasts were not fulfilled until 70AD.
The writer of Hebrews makes it clear there was an overlap of the covenants, and tells us that the OC was still in place (though obsolete) when Hebrews was written, but would soon disappear.
(Heb 8:13) By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
See Hebrews 8:13.
Don't why Heb 8:13 is so hard for you to understand.
Yes it was.
It was the end of the temple, the High Priest, the Levitical Priesthood, etc.
The oracles of God were entrusted to the Jews.
Rom 3:2 is no longer true.
The mystery was completed in 70AD.
(Rev 10:7) But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."
The 7th trumpet sounded in 70AD. The mystery of God was accomplished. There is no longer Jew & Gentile. The Gentiles have become fellow heirs in the promise.
"Whereas the war which the Jews made with the Romans, hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations;" Josephus, Preface, Wars of the Jews.
Christ Jesus fulfilled the Law and Prophets.
The Law and Prophets were fulfilled in 70AD.
In addition to the fulfillment of the feasts I mentioned earlier, there was many prophecies in the OT that were not fulfilled until the complete destruction of the temple.
When the Babylonians destroyed the first temple, it wasn't the completion of the Law and Prophets. God was still having prophets write down prophecies after the first temple was destroyed, and the promised Messiah hadn't been sent yet.
Since you brought up 1 Thessalonians.
(1 Thess 3:13 KJV) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
(1 Thess 4:15 KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(1 Thess 5:23 KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(2 Thess 2:1 KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Are all three of the bolded "coming of the Lord" the same event?
LOL...you've been running and hiding from Luke 19:44 for many years now.
You still have no answer for it.
Rosenritter
New member
Yes we do. All of the generations of the earth from Adam, fulfilling the commandment to "be fruitful and multiply" when they continued to have children until they were five hundred years old, over a sixteen hundred year period ... minus eight.
"Although it is difficult to obtain an actual value of world population at the time of the flood, 5 to17 billion people would appear to be reasonable populations, with an average of around 10 billion. The best ages for childbirth would be 80.8 to 92 years with 6 to 7 children per family. This would be 20 to 18 generations produced from Adam to the Flood in 1656. The Book of Genesis indicates (Chapter 5) that each family had at least 5 children. Adam and Eve had a total of 7 (including Abel). However, Noah apparently had only 3 children. (It is possible that he could have had sons and daughters that aren't recorded and who weren't on the ark.)"
Courtesy of http://www.ldolphin.org/pickett.html
So let's take the low estimate of five billion and subtract eight
That makes 5,000,000,000 - 8 = 4,999,999,992 people killed by the Great Flood as a conservative estimate.
You're not making rational sense. The Old Covenant was part and parcel together as a package. You cannot separate one item from others: if you are guilty of breaking the law in part, you are guilty of breaking the law in whole (see James 2:10). Whether any or all elements of that Old Covenant were foreshadowing of things to come is irrelevant.
The principle of a covenant is that it is an agreement made between two parties. It is either intact in whole or broken in whole. Under what conditions can a covenant be broken?
Hebrews 8:13 KJV
(13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Something does not "decay and wax old" while it is still in effect. It "decays and waxes old" when it has already been cut off. The living does not decay, but that which is dead is subject to decay. You are contradicted by your own proof-text: that old covenant was already terminated, and the only thing remaining to "decay and wax old and vanish away" were the dead remnants that were reminders of its former existence, such as the temple, its rites, and those that practiced them. A living covenant is not said to be in decay.
And even with your wording, a covenant that is in effect is not "obsolete" by the very virtue of still being in effect.
Christ returns with the last trumpet with his saints, Paul said that on his return the dead saints rise to meet him in the air. You already said that the dead did not rise to meet Christ in the air in 70 A.D. Your own words contradict your premise that "all New Testament prophecy was already fulfilled."
How many times do you need to contradict yourself before you are willing to consider that you might have made a miscalculation along the way? Paul says that type of error (of saying the resurrection is past or not to come) is a dangerous error, a canker, that would overthrow the faith.
2 Timothy 2:16-18 KJV
(16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
(17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
(18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
The resurrection of the dead is one of the prophesies of both Old Testament and New. So is it past already? You said it didn't happen. But you also said that no more prophecy was to be fulfilled, so in effect you're really saying that it will never occur at all.
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Nope.
No one knows. The fact that you are trying to prove your theory correct, when it's impossible to do so, says a lot about you.
17 billion people, and only 1 righteous guy.....ok.
Rosenritter
New member
So they didn't multiply across the face of the earth, and that the records of the amounts of children they gave birth too were abnormal and not representative of the general population, and that the lifespans recorded were either freak happenings or just plain lies?
But, your last comment... you do not believe that there was only one man righteous and pure in his generations? Because that's the biblical story.
Genesis 6:13 KJV
(13) And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
2 Peter 2:5 KJV
(5) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
That's the prior context for discerning what scripture means when it speaks of the end of the world and no flesh being saved alive. Claiming that "the end of the world" and "greater tribulation there never has been and never will" of which unless God intervenes "no flesh shall be saved alive" is the destruction of a single city is rather preposterous.
Obviously they multiplied.
Can you show us where in Genesis 5 it says how many children each man had?
All I see is that they had "other sons and daughters".
I find it odd that with a population of 17 billion people, only one would be righteous.
I'm not disputing that Noah was the only righteous man, I just find it odd that of 17 billion he would be the only righteous.
If we use today's growth rate, and apply it from Adam to Noah, the earth's population would be a little over 5,000 when the rains came.
Right Divider
Body part
Why would we use today's growth rate when people were living to be ~10 times older then?
Rosenritter
New member
Then you are off to a good start. Sons is plural. Daughters is plural. That makes a minimal of four, except if it was merely four it would be as easy to say "two sons and two daughters" thus more than four children is strongly implied. In the case of Adam and Eve this is clearly proved:
Cain, who killed Abel, and
Abel, who was killed by Seth, and
Seth, who was born after Abel was killed,
+ at least two daughters.
In the other instances (using Seth as an example) It gives the name of his primary heir (Enos) and then it says that afterwards he begat sons and daughters.
Primary Heir (such as Enos)
+ sons (plural, at least 2)
+ daughters (plural, at least 2)
That's five at the barest minimum, likewise more because otherwise you might as well name the sons and daughters.
And if you believe the Biblical account, people had children between ages 65 to 500 years of age. And that's not even the last child, that's the age which they gave birth to their heir (it doesn't necessarily say they were the first born.)Not necessarily the first and usually not the last. That's a lot of time to have sons and daughters, and it isn't as if they had a shortage of lands to expand which would constrain their numbers.
Farming families today often have many children upwards of five, like eight or nine. Why would five children per family be an unbelievable figure for the world before the Flood? Why would you chaff at population numbers calculated on a conservative numbers like five to eight children per family?
Five to eight children per family when they live upwards of nine hundred years??? How is that a wild figure?
Do you believe that people are born righteous and somehow lose their way? Or that we are born into corruption and our heart is evil from our youth, and that to find righteousness we must pursue the Lord and haply seek him? I'm not sure that objection of yours properly belongs on this thread topic, but perhaps more in the concept of "original sin."
If the earth population was only 5000, why would God use a worldwide flood to destroy the earth? Did you marry folks at age 30 or age 300? Did they have "sons and daughters" during that time or did they follow China's one-child one-family rule? Productively, can you show your work and your stated assumptions to show why you come up with such a different figure?
1) Adam
2) Seth
3) Enosh
4) Kenan
5) Mahalalel
6) Jared
7) Enoch
8) Methuselah
9) Lamech
10) Noah
Geometric progression is every female having 4 children (2 boys & 2 girls). This is an exponential increase in which the population doubles each generation.
So, if each female had 2 boys and 2 girls, then the population would be 512 people when Noah was born.
If each female had 3 boys and 3 girls, then the population would be 39,366 when Noah was born.
If each female had 4 boys and 4 girls, then the population would be 524,288 when Noah was born.
The youngest male to have a child in Genesis 5 is 65 years old. Some of the men were over 100 when they had their first child.
A greater generational interval significantly slows the growth of population.
EXAMPLE:
6 children per couple:
" With a 20 year generation interval, the total number of people at the end of 60 years is 80 (2 + 6 + 18 + 54). With a 30 year generation interval, the total number of people at the end of 60 years is 26 (2 + 6 + 18). Increasing the generation interval from 20 to 30 years reduces the population growth from 80 to 26 during a 60 year period, a percent decrease of 67.5%. A longer generation interval significantly slows the growth of a population." SOURCE
If a couple has 6 children and both die before they turn 30, it is no different than them having 6 children and both dying at age 800, when it comes to determining growth rate.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Matt 24:1-2KJV And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Luke 21:5-6KJV And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Jesus' prophecy concerning complete removal technically concerned the temple.
1Ki 9:7KJV Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Luke 21:5-6KJV And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Jesus' prophecy concerning complete removal technically concerned the temple.
NOW as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind. Josephus
1Ki 9:7KJV Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
musterion
Well-known member
You're welcome.