Real Science Friday: Stretching Out the Heavens

The Barbarian

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So in essence, they are saying that some traits haven’t changed in 200 million years, but some have?

Well, actually we can't say, as it applies to this eel, because we don't actually have a fossil of the basal group yet. We hypothesize that it retains many primitive traits common to the first eels.

Understand that homologies persist for a very long time, so those characters that are discussed in the paper are those that are inferred to have been features of the earliest eels. On the other hand, analogous characters are quite flexible, and so the eel might appear to be very different than ancient members of its group. Or it might not; the fact that this relict population was found in an environment that has remained constant for hundreds of millions of years, suggests that it might be much closer to those ur-eels than it would otherwise be, due to stabilizing selection.

Picture a bat, a mole, an ape, and a horse. Each has highly modified limbs that appear to be quite different. They are homologous, because they can be anatomically and genetically shown to be derived from the same structures of a common ancestor.

On the other hand, look at a shark and a dolphin. They are superficially quite similar, but their structures are shown to be genetically and anatomically quite different and not from a common ancestor. They are analogous.

The thing that trips people up, is that analogies are more obvious than the deeper homologies.

Does that help?

That doesn’t seem to be saying much, hypothetically speaking.

Right. It's really important to taxonomists, and occasionally has an application in medicine or in agronomy or animal husbandry. Otherwise, not so much for the average person. But the big whoop about this was that the new eel has the predicted homologies for the basal group of eels. Picture the party going on in the break rooms of ichthyology departments worldwide.

You and I, not so much.
 

The Barbarian

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I always feel dirty after responding to a barbie post. Much like I do after responding to a Town post.

I used to feel that way about dealing with yours. Then I let it go, forgave you for everything you had done, and now, it doesn't bother me at all.

You should try it. It takes the resentment away.

And your posts would be so much better if you didn't let your worst qualities dictate your responses for you.
 

some other dude

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I used to feel that way about dealing with yours. Then I let it go, forgave you for everything you had done, and now, it doesn't bother me at all.

You should try it. It takes the resentment away.

And your posts would be so much better if you didn't let your worst qualities dictate your responses for you.

You misunderstand. Whether deliberately or not is the point.

I never know when dealing with you which to choose:

Is barbie a befuddled old fool who really doesn't understand what's being discussed?

or

Is barbie deliberately dishonest as most people here believe?


In other words, am I dealing with somebody who should be treated as mentally incompetent? If so, my responses are harsher than I would choose if I knew that to be the truth and I regret that aspect of them.

or

Is barbie a deceitful manipulative piece of trash, as most people here believe, seeking attention - any attention - by being deliberately dishonest? If so, I do not regret my responses to him, but come away from any encounter feeling soiled, as if I had wrestled with a pig in the mud.


Doddering old fool or most dishonest poster on the site?

Which is it barbie?
 

King cobra

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Well, actually we can't say, as it applies to this eel, because we don't actually have a fossil of the basal group yet. We hypothesize that it retains many primitive traits common to the first eels.

Understand that homologies persist for a very long time, so those characters that are discussed in the paper are those that are inferred to have been features of the earliest eels. On the other hand, analogous characters are quite flexible, and so the eel might appear to be very different than ancient members of its group. Or it might not; the fact that this relict population was found in an environment that has remained constant for hundreds of millions of years, suggests that it might be much closer to those ur-eels than it would otherwise be, due to stabilizing selection.

Picture a bat, a mole, an ape, and a horse. Each has highly modified limbs that appear to be quite different. They are homologous, because they can be anatomically and genetically shown to be derived from the same structures of a common ancestor.

On the other hand, look at a shark and a dolphin. They are superficially quite similar, but their structures are shown to be genetically and anatomically quite different and not from a common ancestor. They are analogous.

The thing that trips people up, is that analogies are more obvious than the deeper homologies.

Does that help?
Regarding Jefferson's statement in the OP, it appears sod got it right in Post #50. As such, I must ask:
Have you confronted Physorg.com (article to which Bob refers) about their highlighted statement: “A new (Shouldn’t they have said, “newly discovered?”) species of eel found in the gloom of an undersea (Shouldn’t they have said within the sea since under it is the continental shelf? Or maybe they should have said, “under-part of the-sea.” But wait, Palau is surrounded by an ocean, not a sea!) cave is a "living fossil" astonishingly similar (Astonishingly close to unchanged.) to the first eels (So an eel evolved into...an eel) that swam some 200 million years ago...”?
Afterall:
“In fact, there's no way to tell, because we don't have any fossils of the basal group.” - Barbarian

Right. It's really important to taxonomists, and occasionally has an application in medicine or in agronomy or animal husbandry. Otherwise, not so much for the average person. But the big whoop about this was that the new eel has the predicted homologies for the basal group of eels. Picture the party going on in the break rooms of ichthyology departments worldwide.

Are you gonna crash the party at the Smithsonian after their ichthyologist David Johnson (article to which you referred) stated that, “Eels known from fossils go back to the Cretaceous, P. palau takes that back 100 million years earlier.” (Shouldn’t he have said ‘hypothetically’)?
Afterall: ”Well, actually we can't say, as it applies to this eel, because we don't actually have a fossil of the basal group yet.” - Barbarian

That might help.

You and I, not so much.
That's fine. I'm not much of a partier anyway. :e4e:
 

The Barbarian

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Regarding Jefferson's statement in the OP, it appears sod got it right in Post #50. As such, I must ask:
Have you confronted Physorg.com (article to which Bob refers) about their highlighted statement: “A new (Shouldn’t they have said, “newly discovered?”) species of eel found in the gloom of an undersea (Shouldn’t they have said within the sea since under it is the continental shelf?

Common usage is "undersea" rather than "withinsea." Words mean things, and it's good to use them as they are commonly understood. Palau is perhaps three thousand kilometers from the nearest continental shelf. Island arcs (which are formed by convergent oceanic crust) have shelves, but they are not continental in any sense of the word.

You play the game well, but I have had to wade through too many stupid papers in various journals and have lots and lots of practice at it.

Or maybe they should have said, “under-part of the-sea.” But wait, Palau is surrounded by an ocean, not a sea!)

Technically, it's on the south end of the Phillipine Sea.

cave is a "living fossil" astonishingly similar (Astonishingly close to unchanged.) to the first eels (So an eel evolved into...an eel) that swam some 200 million years ago...”?

But no one knows how close it is, because we don't have any examples from then. Best we can say is it likely has the same homologies as the earliest eels. (Which was previously predicted) But for the reasons I mentioned, it's very unlikely to be unchanged.

“In fact, there's no way to tell, because we don't have any fossils of the basal group.” - Barbarian

Quote:
Right. It's really important to taxonomists, and occasionally has an application in medicine or in agronomy or animal husbandry. Otherwise, not so much for the average person. But the big whoop about this was that the new eel has the predicted homologies for the basal group of eels. Picture the party going on in the break rooms of ichthyology departments worldwide.

Are you gonna crash the party at the Smithsonian after their ichthyologist David Johnson (article to which you referred) stated that, “Eels known from fossils go back to the Cretaceous, P. palau takes that back 100 million years earlier.” (Shouldn’t he have said ‘hypothetically’)?

No. As I mentioned, the eel has characteristics that were predicted for the earliest eels. But so do horseshoe crabs for chelicerates, and coelacanths for the early members of their group. And both of those are much evolved from the ancient ones. The 100 million years is an inference based on the suite of characters. The key is, this eel is confirmation of an earlier prediction about the nature of those ur-eels.

Afterall: ”Well, actually we can't say, as it applies to this eel, because we don't actually have a fossil of the basal group yet.” - Barbarian

That might help.

;)

That's fine. I'm not much of a partier anyway.

Neither are icthyologists, if my experience is any measure.
 

The Barbarian

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(Whenever Sod runs out of argument, he has a white flag with "Evil Barbarian" on it, which he waves to tell us he's done)

In other words, am I dealing with somebody who should be treated as mentally incompetent? If so, my responses are harsher than I would choose if I knew that to be the truth and I regret that aspect of them.

Why not print "Evil Barbarian" on one side of your flag, and "mentally incompetent" on the opposite side? Then you could just adjust which side you wanted to show us each time?

Doddering old fool or most dishonest poster on the site?
Which is it barbie?

We'll won't know until you wave the white flag again. Your choice.
 

King cobra

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Common usage is "undersea" rather than "withinsea." Words mean things, and it's good to use them as they are commonly understood.

And all doesn't always mean all. After all, "all" of Denver will be watching the Bronco game this Sunday, right? Much like "Haven't Changed" might be used in a teaser headline. I think Bob and Fred dealt well with the subject in the actual show.
 

The Barbarian

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Maybe so. In popular talk, it doesn't matter so much, does it? But as you see, the meanings are much sharper in science, and the lack of precision is a much bigger error.

And Bob is far from the worst example of this kind of thing. I'm just pointing out that the statement, if taken literally as a scientific statement, would give one a completely erroneous idea of the actual discovery.

As theology, it doesn't matter much, I suppose.

Much like "Haven't Changed" might be used in a teaser headline.

Exactly. And it gets muddled a little worse with each retelling. I had a cartoon once, that showed the scientists, conclusion, the way the university pubicity office put it, the way a local newspaper had it, the way an internet blog put it, and the way the scientist's grandmother read it on the blog.

It remains true; if you want the truth, go to the primary literature. Otherwise, it's at your risk.
 

some other dude

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And all doesn't always mean all. After all, "all" of Denver will be watching the Bronco game this Sunday, right? Much like "Haven't Changed" might be used in a teaser headline. I think Bob and Fred dealt well with the subject in the actual show.


If had had been a reviewer of the submitted article I would have challenged the author's use of "a retention of primitive morphological features". Without a fossil record it's impossible to determine whether the features were retained or were re-expressed.
 

some other dude

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(Whenever Sod runs out of argument, he has a white flag with "Evil Barbarian" on it, which he waves to tell us he's done)



Why not print "Evil Barbarian" on one side of your flag, and "mentally incompetent" on the opposite side? Then you could just adjust which side you wanted to show us each time?



We'll won't know until you wave the white flag again. Your choice.

Instead of playing games, why don't you just tell us? :idunno:
 

The Barbarian

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If had had been a reviewer of the submitted article I would have challenged the author's use of "a retention of primitive morphological features". Without a fossil record it's impossible to determine whether the features were retained or were re-expressed.

You might want to read Sean Carroll's Endless Forms, Most Beautiful to see how genetics and evolutionary development can explain the difference between a retained character, and something convergent, but not homologous.
 

The Barbarian

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Instead of playing games, why don't you just tell us?

I don't mean to make fun of you, Sod. I truly wish you well. But this is being played out on a landscape in your mind, so only you can answer that.

I think that you vacillate back and forth about it. At least your posts have been inconsistent in that regard. So I think for the moment you should hold on to that two-sided white flag.
 

The Barbarian

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Seriously barbie - are you mentally competent?

I hope so. My project on learning Chinese has been a struggle. And a few weeks ago, I had to look up the quadratic equation; it's been years since I used it.

But I seem to be able to do exposure calculations in my head for manual camera settings as well as ever, so I think I'm all right.

My timing on jokes seems as good as ever...

Haven't yet had the "why did I come into this room" thing. Not looking forward to that.

I have to tell you, you looked a lot better with your comment on retention of shared features than you do when you're waving the white flag. Just saying. BTW, here's what was actually said about that in the abstract:

Many of these uniquely characterize the Recent members of the 19 families comprising the elopomorph order Anguilliformes, the true eels. Others are found among anguilliforms only in the Cretaceous fossils, and still others are primitive with respect to both Recent and fossil eels. Thus, morphological evidence explicitly places it as the most basal lineage (i.e. the sister group of extant anguilliforms). Phylogenetic analysis and divergence time estimation based on whole mitogenome sequences from various actinopterygians,
including representatives of all eel families, demonstrate that this fish represents one of the most basal, independent lineages of the true eels, with a long evolutionary history comparable to that of the entire Anguilliformes (approx. 200 Myr). Such a long, independent evolutionary history dating back to the early Mesozoic and a retention of primitive morphological features (e.g. the presence of a premaxilla,
metapterygoid, free symplectic, gill rakers, pseudobranch and distinct caudal fin rays) warrant recognition of this species as a ‘living fossil’ of the true eels, herein described as Protoanguilla palau genus et species nov. in the new family Protoanguillidae.
 

some other dude

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Well, one reason I ask is that you keep repeating this "white flag" thing. Obsession with trivial items is a common feature of early onset of Alzheimers, you know.

Does it have some special meaning for you?
 

The Barbarian

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Well, one reason I ask is that you keep repeating this "white flag" thing.

I just noticed that whenever you don't have anything to add to the topic, you pull out the white flag.

Obsession with trivial items is a common feature of early onset of Alzheimers, you know.

You don't seem that old. But I suppose it's possible. It would explain your tendency to drop the conversation when it gets a bit tricky and go back to your obsession with the evil Barbarian. Is blindly walking into straight lines part of the early eitiology of Alzheimer's? :think:
 

some other dude

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I just noticed that whenever you don't have anything to add to the topic, you pull out the white flag.

I don't understand what you're saying. Do you think that you see a white flag? Are you seeing other things that aren't there?


You don't seem that old. But I suppose it's possible. It would explain your tendency to drop the conversation when it gets a bit tricky and go back to your obsession with the evil Barbarian.

See now, here's another example. You don't seem to be able to follow a conversation without getting confused.
 

The Barbarian

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Hmmm... don't see editing one's writing as a symptom in dementia of any kind. Good thing, that. Anyway, why don't you look up Carroll's book and read about how genetics can help us understand basal groups and how phylogenies should be drawn. One thing that seems to delay onset of dementia is learning new things.

Can't be bad for you. Just think about it. Endless Forms, Most Beautiful Sean Carroll. Worth a try.

You don't seem to be able to follow a conversation without getting confused.

Love and Logic are difficult things, um? :plain:

Maybe so.
 
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