Real Science Friday: Stretching Out the Heavens

Jefferson

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RSF: Stretching Out the Heavens

This is the show from Friday, December 23rd 2011.

SUMMARY:



* Anti-evolutionary Eels, Next-generation Band-Aids, Egyptian Blue, Dawkins Color Vision Challenge, Threes, and Black Holes in a Young Universe: Real Science Friday co-hosts Fred Williams and Bob Enyart discuss more great news stories from the winter 2012 edition of Creation magazine. And the guys reply to a listener who asks why would a star die and collapse if the universe is only thousands of years old.

* Eels Haven't Changed in an Allegedly 200 Million Years: A species of eel discovered in the South Pacific shows stasis, the primary expectation of the creationist, rather than evolutionary change, the expectation of the atheist and of theistic evolutionists.
[UPDATE: In the posts below Barbarian claims this is a misleading representation of the original finding. So I thank "some other dude" for pulling these excerpts from the original research, which he posted below:

some other dude said:
...Phylogenetic analysis and divergence time estimation based on whole mitogenome sequences from various actinopterygians, including representatives of all eel families, demonstrate that this fish represents one of the most basal, independent lineages of the true eels, with a long evolutionary history comparable to that of the entire Anguilliformes (approx. 200 Myr). Such a long, independent evolutionary history dating back to the early Mesozoic and a retention of primitive morphological features (e.g. the presence of a premaxilla, metapterygoid, free symplectic, gill rakers, pseudobranch and distinct caudal fin rays) warrant recognition of this species as a ‘living fossil’ of the true eels, herein described...

Thus,we consider that Protoanguilla represents an ancient anguilliform lineage that dates back to the early Mesozoic (around 200Ma)...

In any case, historically, the Protoanguilla lineage, estimated to have diverged ca 200Ma, must have been much more widely distributed...

* New Band-Aids Designed Without Glue By Copying the Gecko Toe: It's about time human engineers got around to reverse engineering the adhesiveness of the gecko's feet in order to manufacture a better Band-Aid. The Band-Aid was invented in 1920, making it eleven years older than the Big Bang which was invented in 1931. See the series of enlargements in the gecko feet image to get an idea of how God used form rather than glue to enable geckos to walk on walls.



* Post-Show Note: Real Science Friday is looking for a sketch artist!
Help us create the RSF Dawkins Color Vision Challenge! Similar to our PZ Myers Trochlea Challenge (for which PZ honestly answered, "I don't know"), Bob and Fred are constructing a similar challenge but this time for Richard Dawkins, and regarding a different aspect of the alleged evolution of vision. The guys are hoping to get an artist to volunteer to sketch their challenge, and also, they're eager to get comments and constructive criticism emailed to them on the challenge itself.

* Egyptian Blue and the Three Primary Colors: The ancient Egyptian chemists were brilliant materials engineers, and their effort to create a true blue pigment was stunning in its sophistication. Interestingly, there are three primary colors in pigments just as there are three primary colors in light waves.

* Threes Everywhere: The number three reflected in the Trinity and throughout Scripture turns the Christian's attention toward the creation to see space existing in three dimensions, height, width, and length, as does time in past, present and future. The electromagnetic force operates in positive, negative, and neutral, and in light waves, red, green, and blue blend into the hues of the rainbow whereas and in pigment the three primary colors are red, yellow, and blue. We human beings on this third planet from the Sun experience matter primarily in three states, solid, liquid, and gas. The strongest shape for building is the triangle. Writers often give three examples and artists group in threes as in interior design, sculpting, and even movie directors, as they have the word trilogy (1, 2, 3) but no word for any other number of films. Photographers use the rule of thirds and genetic scientists discovered that the language of DNA uses only three-letter words. And so we humans are body, soul, and spirit (1 Thes. 5:23), made in the image of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.



Today’s Resource: Have you browsed through our Science Department in our online store? Check out especially Walt Brown’s In the Beginning and Bob’s interviews with this great scientist in Walt Brown Week! You’ll also love Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez’ Privileged Planet (clip), and Illustra Media’s Unlocking the Mystery of Life (clip)! You can consider our BEL Science Pack; Bob Enyart’s Age of the Earth Debate; Bob's creation/evolution debate that hits on Junk DNA with famous evolutionist Dr. Eugenie Scott (see description below); and the superb kids' radio program Jonathan Park: The Adventure Begins!
 
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Jukia

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Ah, more scientific strawmen from Pastor Bob--the eel story, However his claim that creationists support stasis is simply a mistake (or heaven forbid a misrepresentation to attempt to make a point). 6-day Creationists require enormous, very fast, change to get from Noah's kinds to today's kinds, else Noah took every cat kind on the ark for example (lions, tigers, puma, cheetah, domestic cats etc). But as you may suspect, I am not at all surprised at Pastor Bob's lack of scientific knowledge or intellectual honesty.

I am a bit surprised that he is now delving into numerology---3's.
 

Stripe

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However his claim that creationists support stasis is simply a mistake (or heaven forbid a misrepresentation to attempt to make a point). 6-day Creationists require enormous, very fast, change to get from Noah's kinds to today's kinds, else Noah took every cat kind on the ark for example (lions, tigers, puma, cheetah, domestic cats etc).

Trust Jukia to not understand what he is trying to mock.

Creationists expect stasis where evolutionists expect change is generally accurate. The fact that rapid diversification happens and likely did happen a lot more after the flood does not change this. Especially when evolutionists need fish to have evolved into people. :chuckle:
 

Jukia

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Trust Jukia to not understand what he is trying to mock.

Creationists expect stasis where evolutionists expect change is generally accurate. The fact that rapid diversification happens and likely did happen a lot more after the flood does not change this. Especially when evolutionists need fish to have evolved into people. :chuckle:


Just to be clear, what is your position on the diversification of all existing felines? Did it happen post flood?
 

Lighthouse

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Was that addressed to me?
No, you moron. Maybe if you actually read the OP, or listened to the episode, you'd know something; but you'd rather just drop in and post your rhetoric without any knowledge of the issue at all.
 

Jukia

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No, you moron. Maybe if you actually read the OP, or listened to the episode, you'd know something; but you'd rather just drop in and post your rhetoric without any knowledge of the issue at all.

Actually I thought perhaps you were suggesting that the major feline difference was coat color.

I was addressing Pastor Bob's strawman of stasis. But then if you had any knowledge of science you might have picked up on that. Try taking some classes at your local community college. Usually pretty easy to get in and taught at a level even you might comprehend.
 

Lighthouse

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Actually I thought perhaps you were suggesting that the major feline difference was coat color.

I was addressing Pastor Bob's strawman of stasis. But then if you had any knowledge of science you might have picked up on that. Try taking some classes at your local community college. Usually pretty easy to get in and taught at a level even you might comprehend.
And I wasn't talking about stasis. How stupid are you?

Let me let you in on something, when I am addressing someone on TOL I make it clear by quoting them with the quote feature or at least calling them by name at the beginning of my response to them.
 

Jukia

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And I wasn't talking about stasis. How stupid are you?

Let me let you in on something, when I am addressing someone on TOL I make it clear by quoting them with the quote feature or at least calling them by name at the beginning of my response to them.
Lighthouse:
OK, just to be clear, I am talking with you. Your ignorance and underlying lack of intellectual curiosity and associated lack of intellectual integrity is astounding but understandable given your theology.


Let me know if you wish to discuss Pastor Bob's misrepresentation regarding statsis. Otherwise, have a safe New Year.
 

Lighthouse

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Let me know if you wish to discuss Pastor Bob's misrepresentation regarding statsis. Otherwise, have a safe New Year.
Seeing as how I never indicated I wanted to discuss such a thing with you, or anything at all in this thread, what do you think I'm going to do?
 

The Barbarian

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Eels Haven't Changed in an Allegedly 200 Million Years: A species of eel discovered in the South Pacific shows stasis, the primary expectation of the creationist, rather than evolutionary change, the expectation of the atheist and of theistic evolutionists.

Stasis, as many TOLers know, is an expectation of evolutionary theory, where a population is well-fitted and the environment is effectively unchanging. But 200 million years would be a record for stasis.

Can Jefferson show us the data for this episode of eel stasis?

Edit: Found the original literature on this. Turns out this eel is not found in the fossil record, but is in some ways more primitive than known fossil eels. Hence, it is a "living fossil" in the sense of belonging to a very primitive group. In the same sense, the coelacanth and horseshoe crabs, while primitive, are markedly different from the ancient fossilized examples.

Nothing in the paper says that these eels have not changed in 200 million years.

The electromagnetic force operates in positive, negative, and neutral, and in light waves, red, green, and blue blend into the hues of the rainbow whereas and in pigment the three primary colors are red, yellow, and blue.

Magenta, yellow, and cyan. And it's only that way because human eyes have evolved their own particular discrimination of lightwaves. The perception for other animals (and some humans) is different.
 
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Jukia

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Stasis, as many TOLers know, is an expectation of evolutionary theory, where a population is well-fitted and the environment is effectively unchanging. But 200 million years would be a record for stasis.

Can Jefferson show us the data for this episode of eel stasis?

Pastor Bob and Fred said it. Need more data?
 

Stripe

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Barbarian again finds it necessary to patronise:
Stasis, as many TOLers know, is an expectation of evolutionary theory, where a population is well-fitted and the environment is effectively unchanging. But 200 million years would be a record for stasis.
Everything is an expectation of evolution. After it is shown to be reality. :chuckle:

Can Jefferson show us the data for this episode of eel stasis?
You could get the magazine they were reading or you could call in. :thumb:
 

The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
Stasis, as many TOLers know, is an expectation of evolutionary theory, where a population is well-fitted and the environment is effectively unchanging. But 200 million years would be a record for stasis.

Everything is an expectation of evolution.

Nope. Many things are not, such as the creationist demand that a dog evolve into a horse. But this particular thing was a part of Darwin's original theory. In fact, it's not stasis that is absent from Darwin's theory, but the possibility that it might be accounted for by more than stabilizing selection (Darwin's explanation).

How do we explain stasis? stabilizing selection, developmental constraints, absence of selection? Eldredge and Gould claim that stasis is data, i.e., the absence of change is interesting. If stasis is due to stabilizing selection, then there is perfectly good evolution going on: selection against individuals at the tails of the distributions within populations. If stasis is due to developmental constraints then there is an interesting "battle" going on between the environment and the homeostasis of the organism. The issue of punctuated equilibrium has contributed a lot to the science of paleontology since it has focused new attention on 1) changes at speciation in the fossil record (see pp. 567-570), and 2) the notion that stasis is interesting and important and needs explanation.

http://biomed.brown.edu/Courses/BIO48/37.Tempo&Mode.2.HTML

After it is shown to be reality.

Stabilizing selection was directly observable to Darwin. The developmental constraints were impossible to consider in his time, so it's not surprising that he got the one that was observable, and later scientists found the latter.

Barbarian asks:
Can Jefferson show us the data for this episode of eel stasis?

You could get the magazine they were reading or you could call in.

No need. I found the original paper. Nothing about 200 million years with no change. Indeed, this species is unknown in the fossil record. The warning remains obvious; read the original paper, if you want to get it right.
 
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