Questions for Arians

Lon

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Not looking to debate, just reasonable intelligent, well-thought-out answers.

Here is the first:

Unitarian/Arian "Christ is not God" question:

Read these verses carefully.

1 John 5:12 John 14:18-19 Ephesians 3:17-19 Colossians 1:27 Revelation 3:20

How is it possible for a mere man or created being to indwell you as only God does?
 

Vail Lifted

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Not looking to debate, just reasonable intelligent, well-thought-out answers.

Here is the first:

Unitarian/Arian "Christ is not God" question:

Read these verses carefully.

1 John 5:12 John 14:18-19 Ephesians 3:17-19 Colossians 1:27 Revelation 3:20

How is it possible for a mere man or created being to indwell you as only God does?

Jesus is no mere man. He is God's Anointed one.

The spirit of Christ was in the prophets when they spoke of him. The prophets were sent of God and therefore were under inspiration of God. And just as Jesus said of himself, the words I speak are not my own but my Father's, He does the works. God spoke by the prophets concerning Christ and also spoke by Christ. And thereby the spirit which is the Father's spirit was in both the prophets and Christ when they spoke. The same can be said about those who were gifted to do things they naturally could not. For example, the men who did the work on the tabernacle were gifted by God to enable them for the work. And so it was with the disciples of Christ who were gifted for the promulgation of the truth. Those gifts did not belong to them by nature.

I do not believe the miraculous gifts of the spirit are available today as they were for all believers during the first century. Before the Romans destroyed the temple and Jerusalem. Paul says that the gift which abide are faith, hope and love. All others have ceased.

The spirit which dwells in Christ is the same spirit of the Father who gave it to Jesus. And when Jesus ascended to the Father he received of the Father the gifts of the spirit which was sent down at Pentecost for the declaring of the truth to all languages.

If one speaks of Christ in truth then that one is speaking the words of the Father as given to us by inspiration of His Holy Spirit through the Scriptures of truth. The Spirit of truth. The same truth that is Christ. therefore the truth as it is in Christ will be spoken by that one.
 

Vail Lifted

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Trinitarians misunderstand Jesus' words and the works he does. Instead of recognizing the Father in the son they make the son to be another person who is also the one true God. They go too far. They are like the ones who left off following Jesus when he said they must eat his flesh and drink his blood or they have no life in him. They misunderstood his words and left him. They didn't go far enough to understand his true meaning. That the words he spoke were spirit and truth. His words and doctrine were to be understood spiritually and not literally.

Where the RCC goes to far in its misunderstanding the Jews didn't go far enough in theirs.

The RCC has also invented another false doctrine they call "transubstantiation" which ought to be a red flag that they completely misunderstand Jesus's words.
 

Lon

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Trinitarians misunderstand Jesus' words and the works he does. Instead of recognizing the Father in the son they make the son to be another person who is also the one true God. They go too far. They are like the ones who left off following Jesus when he said they must eat his flesh and drink his blood or they have no life in him. They misunderstood his words and left him. They didn't go far enough to understand his true meaning. That the words he spoke were spirit and truth. His words and doctrine were to be understood spiritually and not literally.

Where the RCC goes to far in its misunderstanding the Jews didn't go far enough in theirs.

The RCC has also invented another false doctrine they call "transubstantiation" which ought to be a red flag that they completely misunderstand Jesus's words.

We don't. Rather, we read scripture and do not go beyond it. John 20:28 and John 1:1 are well beyond any Unitarian's ability to deny deity. No Arian will ever be able to adequately deal with these verses and it leaves them cutting them out/ignoring them in their bibles or trying to rewrite them.

I do not believe you adequately addressed the OP question, nor really touched it. It asked a specific question.
 

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Trinitarians go so far beyond scripture that anyone who reads it can easily tell that the language of the trinies is nowhere to be found in scripture nor does it belong there
 

meshak

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Not looking to debate, just reasonable intelligent, well-thought-out answers.

Here is the first:

Unitarian/Arian "Christ is not God" question:

Read these verses carefully.

1 John 5:12 John 14:18-19 Ephesians 3:17-19 Colossians 1:27 Revelation 3:20

How is it possible for a mere man or created being to indwell you as only God does?

You don't seem to know that Jesus was given the power to do everything what His Father wants Him do to.

Do you need the reference about it?
 

Vail Lifted

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You don't seem to know that Jesus was given the power to do everything what His Father wants Him do to.

Do you need the reference about it?

The idea that Jesus has two natures is implied. You won't find it expressed anywhere in Scripture.

If one has the nature of the God, and is the God, then that one does not need anyone to give him anything.
 

Lon

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Trinitarians go so far beyond scripture that anyone who reads it can easily tell that the language of the trinies is nowhere to be found in scripture nor does it belong there

I asked a question. Either answer the question or see your way to another thread that actually interests you. This one is asking for a direct answer to specific questions and HONEST dialogue about those answers. Not interested? See to other threads for your contentious nature. This is not that thread.
 

Lon

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You don't seem to know that Jesus was given the power to do everything what His Father wants Him do to.

Do you need the reference about it?

Whether I 'seem' to know or not isn't important (it was a purposefully condescending comment on your part). Rather, to the second point, yes, I need to see those references and scriptures. The question again:
How is it possible for a mere man or created being to indwell you as only God does?
How can a man indwell you or I? How can He indwell both you and I at the same time? The question is harder than it looks and I believe will require you to study in order to be able to answer it. I'm fairly sure you nor "Vail" actually read those scriptures carefully. Please do so in honesty and integrity or also avoid this thread. They are important to the discussion. I've NO desire just to banter with ill-mannered ill-humored Unit-arians. If you want to participate, do so with honesty and integrity using the scriptures. -Lon
 

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The question again:
How can a man indwell you or I? How can He indwell both you and I at the same time? The question is harder than it looks and I believe will require you to study in order to be able to answer it.


Why do you avoid answering it? Is it too hard for you to understand? You imply you've studied it and therefore have an answer but you refuse to give your answer. Who do you think you're fooling?

I'm fairly sure you nor "Vail" actually read those scriptures carefully. Please do so in honesty and integrity or also avoid this thread. They are important to the discussion. I've NO desire just to banter with ill-mannered ill-humored Unit-arians. If you want to participate, do so with honesty and integrity using the scriptures. -Lon

"Vail" is used as a noun in the KJV, my favorite version of Scripture. It's the version I read everyday. I reference many other versions in my studies but I've grown accustomed to the KJV. It's an excellent version!

You only show your ignorance by suggesting that a person who would misspell a word, that is commonly and easily misspelled, as having a lack of intelligence.

A wise person can easily see that you have avoided answering the questions and have retreated to only insults.
 

Vail Lifted

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The question again:
How can a man indwell you or I? How can He indwell both you and I at the same time? The question is harder than it looks and I believe will require you to study in order to be able to answer it.

The question is a very easy one for someone whose mind has not been baffled with false ideas.

Not only is God a spirit but God also has a spirit. His spirit can indwell many people at once. In fact, the Scripture says that if God were to withdrawal His spirit all life would immediately cease to exist.

The spirit that was given to Jesus without measure is called the Holy Spirit and He/it descended upon Jesus in the form of a dove. The spirit of the Father, called the Holy Spirit, is personified by Jesus and is called the Comforter.

When the Comforter was sent to the disciples by Jesus after receiving Him from the Father the disciples (many) were enabled to do unnatural things. The Comforter is able to indwell many at once.

The same Holy Spirit that indwelt the disciples is the same Holy Spirit that indwelt the man Jesus without measure. The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the man Jesus Christ was given to his disciples and is therefore referred to as a measure of the gift of Christ given to each of the disciples.

So, the way in which a man can indwell many people at once is by the man having the Spirit of the Father and who can give of that Spirit to whomever believes in him. The Scripture calls it the measure of the gift of Christ. The gift was received by Jesus from the Father and Jesus passed it along to his disciples.
 

Vail Lifted

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It is also helpful to know that the Spirit of the man Jesus Christ was in the prophets when they spoke of Jesus.

The Spirit of Christ is none other than the Holy Spirit of the Father!

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:21

That's how the Spirit of the man Jesus Christ can indwell many other men. The same Spirit of the Father is the Spirit of Christ.
 

JudgeRightly

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The question is a very easy one for someone whose mind has not been baffled with false ideas.

Not only is God a spirit but God also has a spirit. His spirit can indwell many people at once. In fact, the Scripture says that if God were to withdrawal His spirit all life would immediately cease to exist.

The spirit that was given to Jesus without measure is called the Holy Spirit and He/it descended upon Jesus in the form of a dove. The spirit of the Father, called the Holy Spirit, is personified by Jesus and is called the Comforter.

When the Comforter was sent to the disciples by Jesus after receiving Him from the Father the disciples (many) were enabled to do unnatural things. The Comforter is able to indwell many at once.

The same Holy Spirit that indwelt the disciples is the same Holy Spirit that indwelt the man Jesus without measure. The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the man Jesus Christ was given to his disciples and is therefore referred to as a measure of the gift of Christ given to each of the disciples.

So, the way in which a man can indwell many people at once is by the man having the Spirit of the Father and who can give of that Spirit to whomever believes in him. The Scripture calls it the measure of the gift of Christ. The gift was received by Jesus from the Father and Jesus passed it along to his disciples.

Vail, Lon isn't asking about God.

Read the question again, slower:


How can a man indwell you or I? How can He indwell both you and I at the same time?



You're answering the question, "how does the Spirit indwell", not "a man."
 

ffreeloader

Well-known member
Not looking to debate, just reasonable intelligent, well-thought-out answers.

Here is the first:

Unitarian/Arian "Christ is not God" question:

Read these verses carefully.

1 John 5:12 John 14:18-19 Ephesians 3:17-19 Colossians 1:27 Revelation 3:20

How is it possible for a mere man or created being to indwell you as only God does?

I think your question is a little bit inadequate. Created beings can dwell in humans. You seem, in your eagerness to refute non-trinitarians, to forget some very relevant scriptures and stories from the life of Jesus.

Matthew 8:28 ¶And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
[SIZE=+0]29[/SIZE] And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
[SIZE=+0]30[/SIZE] And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
[SIZE=+0]31[/SIZE] So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
[SIZE=+0]32[/SIZE] And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
[SIZE=+0]33[/SIZE] And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils.
[SIZE=+0]34[/SIZE] And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.

Matthew 17:14 ¶And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certainman, kneeling down to him, and saying,
[SIZE=+0]15[/SIZE] Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
[SIZE=+0]16[/SIZE] And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
[SIZE=+0]17[/SIZE] Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
[SIZE=+0]18[/SIZE] And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
 

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A man can t literally dwell in another man
The spirit of a man can figuratively dwell in another if they have the same spirit of the man.
For example, if a man has a spirit of love then another can have that same spirit.
 

Vail Lifted

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Vail, Lon isn't asking about God.

Read the question again, slower:


How can a man indwell you or I? How can He indwell both you and I at the same time?



You're answering the question, "how does the Spirit indwell", not "a man."

I understood the question. I figured there was enough sense to know that a man can not literally live inside another man. That's why I was speaking of spirit because it is only in that way that the man Jesus Christ can live in another man.

I answered the question directly in post #15
 

Lon

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Why do you avoid answering it? Is it too hard for you to understand? You imply you've studied it and therefore have an answer but you refuse to give your answer. Who do you think you're fooling?

Please leave or I'll have you removed. You can do so by your own feet or be dragged out. You are trolling this thread and causing it to be lowbrow and siderailed. It is as simple as this: ANSWER THE QUESTION. If you cannot or don't have the inclination, this thread is not for you. Last chance, address questions in an intelligent and academic integrity or leave. It is as simple as that. I'm not interested in your accusations or banter. Thank you for your compliance, one way or the other. :e4e:

I understood the question. I figured there was enough sense to know that a man can not literally live inside another man. That's why I was speaking of spirit because it is only in that way that the man Jesus Christ can live in another man.

I answered the question directly in post #15
There, let's talk about THIS (not the other drivel, leave it and I'll welcome your dialogue). Question: Can "I" indwell you when I die? I'll be spirit, right?
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings Lon,
Not looking to debate, just reasonable intelligent, well-thought-out answers.
Here is the first: Unitarian/Arian "Christ is not God" question:
Read these verses carefully. 1 John 5:12 John 14:18-19 Ephesians 3:17-19 Colossians 1:27 Revelation 3:20
How is it possible for a mere man or created being to indwell you as only God does?
Firstly I am not an Arian, but believe that there is one God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Firstly Jesus is not a mere man, He is the Son of God by birth, as God the Father is His father, and Mary is His mother Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35. He is also the Son of God because He fully reflected the moral character of God, and He is the Son of God because He has been resurrected and glorified John 1:14, Romans 1:1-4.

Looking at your Ephesians 3:17-19 reference, but adding a bit more context:
Ephesians 3:14-19 (KJV): 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
The concept is fairly clear, that God firstly filled Jesus with His Spirit, His character, His love, and Jesus is now able to fill us with the same. The source of all of this is from God the Father, but He has passed on this ability to Jesus, the Son of God.
Ephesians 4:13 (KJV): Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Lon

Well-known member
I think your question is a little bit inadequate. Created beings can dwell in humans. You seem, in your eagerness to refute non-trinitarians, to forget some very relevant scriptures and stories from the life of Jesus.



You say I'm inadequate. Stop that nonsense. Lowbrow 'you aren't smart' is a guy/gal stuck in a middle school hallway. It is frankly, beneath me. It should be below you as well. Instead of 'attacking' the question, answer it and deal honestly with it.

Instead, YOU think more deeply than ▲these▲ inane soundbytes: Demons. Further, could a demon indwell TWO people at the same time? How about millions (as is the case with the Lord Jesus Christ)?

YOU think more deeply about the scriptures. You will not be able to dismiss my questions with a wave. That is the work of a simpleton, not a scholar. 2 Timothy 2:15
 

Lon

Well-known member
Greetings Lon, Firstly I am not an Arian, but believe that there is one God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Firstly Jesus is not a mere man, He is the Son of God by birth, as God the Father is His father, and Mary is His mother Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35. He is also the Son of God because He fully reflected the moral character of God, and He is the Son of God because He has been resurrected and glorified John 1:14, Romans 1:1-4.

Looking at your Ephesians 3:17-19 reference, but adding a bit more context:
Ephesians 3:14-19 (KJV): 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
The concept is fairly clear, that God firstly filled Jesus with His Spirit, His character, His love, and Jesus is now able to fill us with the same. The source of all of this is from God the Father, but He has passed on this ability to Jesus, the Son of God.
Ephesians 4:13 (KJV): Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Kind regards
Trevor
Thank you for treating the subject matter seriously and in a thoughtful, studied manner.

Functionally, then, you are correct, you are not an Arian/Unitarian. You are not a Trinitarian but are likely Triune in much of your expressions. Though your theology is different, your answer is close to the same as mine: "God indwells men." As a vessel, it'd be redundant to have Christ AND God, thus God indwells us. John 14:23
Point: There is equatedness in John 14, John 10:14

I simply want Arians/Unitarians to 'see' what the rest of us see and know from the scriptures what is given as true from the scriptures. -Lon
 
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