Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

[Lon]

Lon... think again. For God to be outside of time, the experiences would have to be the same for God outside of that which you designated that time is created. They are not.

Perhaps you aren't understanding what I'm trying to get you to distinguish? Let's apply this specifically to a clock and I think you'll agree, then let's take that "understanding" back to God's immutability.
Sound good?

A clock intrinsically doesn't change insomuch as it remains working (no problem with this kind of necessity with God). It is the same exact clock I bought 10 years ago and nothing at all has intrinsically changed.

The clock, however extrinsically changes. This isn't talking so much about what the clock is that is changing, but what it does. It displays in durative increments what is needed for its relation to me.

So in a nutshell and somewhat simplistic, God doesn't change but what He does makes or is seen as change. Or, who God is doesn't change, what He does, exibits change or at least perceived change (the clock doesn't ever jump to 24:01).

 

[ghost]

If I make a clay mug, the materials were already there, the mug is new, but "yes," because whatever exists comes from an eternal God. Be careful here, you are setting up to destroy Enyart's 'new song' question, inadvertently, perhaps? Keep with the intrinsic/extrinsic idea and I think you'll do okay. Applying 'change' across board will cut the OV as well as any other view just as severely. Call one edge of that double-edge intrinsic, and the other extrinsic and we'll have a meaningful discussion.

You are so wrong and so blinded by your "extrinsic/intrinsic" argument. Stop with that argument, because it is unrelated to the discussion.

Since God is eternally 3 persons then there has never been a "time" that "3" does not exist. Since the Father has loved the Son and the Spirit and the son has loved the Father and the spirit and the Spirit has loved the Father and the Son eternally, then communication is eternal, and uncreated. This is also true of time. Succession is eternal, having no beginning and no end, as it is uncreated, just as god is uncreated.

 

[Lon]

sky, it's clear you believe God has an eternal plan and I might even agree with that statement.

But here is the real question for you....

Was there a time before God created the eternal plan?

Knight, take this to the end so we aren't dealing with side-issues. The ultimate question is this: Was there a time God ever didn't exist?
Your answer "No" here is near identical to the question you just asked.
Then realize you said "No time."

 

[Lon]

You are so wrong and so blinded by your "extrinsic/intrinsic" argument. Stop with that argument, because it is unrelated to the discussion.

Since God is eternally 3 persons then there has never been a "time" that "3" does not exist. Since the Father has loved the Son and the Spirit and the son has loved the Father and the spirit and the Spirit has loved the Father and the Son eternally, then communication is eternal, and uncreated. This is also true of time. Succession is eternal, having no beginning and no end, as it is uncreated, just as god is uncreated.

This is true of a 'ray' but not of a 'line." God cannot (impossible) have a singular duration for an eternal non-beginning to be true. It isn't possible.

 

[sky.]

sky, it's clear you believe God has an eternal plan and I might even agree with that statement.

But here is the real question for you....

Was there a time before God created the eternal plan?

Does the Bible tell us what that time consisted of?

 

[ghost]

Perhaps you aren't understanding what I'm trying to get you to distinguish?

I doubt it, but I'll read another post.

Let's apply this specifically to a clock and I think you'll agree, then let's take that "understanding" back to God's immutability.
Sound good?

I think it is better to come to our conclusions void of any created thing, but go ahead.

A clock intrinsically doesn't change insomuch as it remains working (no problem with this kind of necessity with God). It is the same exact clock I bought 10 years ago and nothing at all has intrinsically changed.

Okay.

The clock, however extrinsically changes. This isn't talking so much about what the clock is that is changing, but what it does. It displays in durative increments what is needed for its relation to me.

So?

So in a nutshell and somewhat simplistic, God doesn't change but what He does makes or is seen as change. Or, who God is doesn't change, what He does, exibits change or at least perceived change (the clock doesn't ever jump to 24:01).

Okay

Can we get back to my point now? How about you address what you quoted that brought about these unrelated points?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Does the Bible tell us what that time consisted of?

Huh?

Could you just please answer my question? It helps when we directly respond to each others questions. :up:

 

[zippy2006]

You are so wrong and so blinded by your "extrinsic/intrinsic" argument. Stop with that argument, because it is unrelated to the discussion.

Since God is eternally 3 persons then there has never been a "time" that "3" does not exist. Since the Father has loved the Son and the Spirit and the son has loved the Father and the spirit and the Spirit has loved the Father and the Son eternally, then communication is eternal, and uncreated. This is also true of time. Succession is eternal, having no beginning and no end, as it is uncreated, just as god is uncreated.

To 'show' that some things are not created before asserting that time is not created does not constitute an argument.

Why do we believe that the idea which "3" represents has always existed? It is for a very different reason that you believe time has always existed. The idea of '3' cannot be manipulated, either in reality or in theory. But time can be manipulated in reality, and is always manipulated in plays, movies, etc. And before you say it, even succession itself can be theoretically manipulated (hit "pause" on your DVD player). Not so with the number 3.

 

[Lon]

I doubt it, but I'll read another post. I think it is better to come to our conclusions void of any created thing, but go ahead.

Okay.

So?

Okay

Can we get back to my point now? How about you address what you quoted that brought about these unrelated points?

Lon... think again. For God to be outside of time, the experiences would have to be the same for God outside of that which you designated that time is created. They are not.

I did, but you aren't getting it. The clock is both relational to change and unchanging depending on what we are talking about. This is again, my repeated paradigm: God is 'relational to' yet 'unconstrained (a part and yet apart) by' time. You are falling into a trap. With my diagram, they can be laid on top of each other and are both true of God (#2 is actually a part of #1 already).

1. <--------------------------------------------->
2 <-------------|-------------|---------------->

 

[ghost]

Why do we believe that the idea which "3" represents has always existed?

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 3 Persons One God. Math is uncreated. It exists because God exists. The 3 interact/move/communicate which shows that movement is uncreated. Movement exists because God exists. Time exists because movement exists. Time, movement, communication, are uncreated and exist because God exists.

 

[ghost]

I did, but you aren't getting it. The clock is both relational to change and unchanging depending on what we are talking about. This is again, my repeated paradigm: God is 'relational to' yet 'unconstrained (a part and yet apart) by' time. You are falling into a trap. With my diagram, they can be laid on top of each other and are both true of God (#2 is actually a part of #1 already).

If they are laid on top of each other, you still have a "time" when God's eternal reality is both with and without His creation. Impossible.

 

[zippy2006]

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 3 Persons One God. Math is uncreated. It exists because God exists. The 3 interact/move/communicate which shows that movement is uncreated. Movement exists because God exists. Time exists because movement exists. Time, movement, communication, are uncreated and exist because God exists.

Now that's an argument. :up:

Perfect communication or love does not require movement. When the Holy Spirit truly indwells a person, they are always in communication with Him, even in perfect stillness with no movement. How much more true is this with the Blessed Trinity?

 

[ghost]

Now that's an argument. :up:

Perfect communication or love does not require movement. When the Holy Spirit truly indwells a person, they are always in communication with Him, even in perfect stillness with no movement. How much more true is this with the Blessed Trinity?

If God knows all things eternally, then communication, succession, time, math, love, judgment, etc., have eternally been in the mind of God. All things eternally experienced by God. It's impossible for it to be otherwise. ALL things would have no beginning or ending in God's reality. It would be impossible for God to remember our sins no more, for all sins would be eternal.

 

[Lon]

Do you think that God's Son was humble and obedient prior to the Incarnation?

If so, then Phil 2:7-8 simply refers to the fact that the Son of God demonstrated His inherent humility and obedience by incarnating and going to the cross. Humility and obedience weren't new attributes that were created within the Son of God during his Incarnation; He simply demonstrated His eternal obedience to the Father in His humanity during His Incarnation and suffering at the crucifixion.



I think your point concurs with my reply to Chat above. Do you agree?

Yes, and he will too, they just aren't grasping there is a discrepancy between unidirectional progression (time as 'we' know it) and God's eternal non-beginning. If you say "God always existed" you are literally say "God has two time directions" (at least).

 

[ghost]

If you say "God always existed" you are literally say "God has two time directions" (at least).

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men."

How would you like to say God existed Lon?

 

[zippy2006]

If God knows all things eternally, then communication, succession, time, math, love, judgment, etc., have eternally been in the mind of God. All things eternally experienced by God.

:thumb: Don't forget sin, which is why the cross is so big.

It's impossible for it to be otherwise. ALL things would have no beginning or ending in God's reality. It would be impossible for God to remember our sins no more, for all sins would be eternal.

Like I said to Knight, just because God created temporality does not mean He is not able to enter into it or understand it (He did and does, for He created it). But our sins are acts impinging on eternity, as well as our repentance. :noid:

 

[sky.]

sky, it's clear you believe God has an eternal plan and I might even agree with that statement.

But here is the real question for you....

Was there a time before God created the eternal plan?

Does the Bible tell us what that time consisted of?

Huh?

Could you just please answer my question? It helps when we directly respond to each others questions. :up:

Your OP says that "God is in time". What is the ultimate time God has revealed to us? His starting point is "eternal" before time began as the Bible says. Did He have a starting point before that? only God knows. He is all knowing. To question His all knowing from eternity past is to question if He is God.

 

[chatmaggot]

...before time began as the Bible says...

"Before time began" is IMPOSSIBLE! Why can't you see that?

 

[chatmaggot]

This verse came to mind:

Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

I am not sure what you are implying. Are you implying that because God grieved that is an indication that He is not perfect? I guess I am confused.

 

[sky.]

"Before time began" is IMPOSSIBLE! Why can't you see that?

This is what open theism is teaching.