Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

[Right Divider]

He left the apostles, and it shattered them.

What makes you think that?

Is God a liar when He told Israel this?

Heb 13:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(13:5) [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. ​

When Christ departed, they (the 11, soon to be twelve again) went about their business replacing Judas Iscariot. I don't see them "shattered" in any way.

They had not anticipated it.

Anticipated what?

Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place for them.

John 14:2-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(14:2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (14:3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.​

Why would they be "shattered" knowing that they Lord was taking care of them?

But then Pentecost came, and the Holy Spirit descended.

Please quote the scripture where the Holy Spirit "descended" (hint: it does not say that).

That is the pattern: the world remains empty of the divine unless God chooses to enter it.

You keep making this vague undefined statement. Define your terms.

We are meant to relinquish the notion that we are naturally immersed in the divine presence, for that is a pagan intuition, not a Christian one.

Again, this sounds like new age jargon and not biblical Christianity.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What makes you think that?

Is God a liar when He told Israel this?

Heb 13:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(13:5) [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. ​

When Christ departed, they (the 11, soon to be twelve again) went about their business replacing Judas Iscariot. I don't see them "shattered" in any way.


Anticipated what?

Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place for them.

John 14:2-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(14:2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (14:3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.​

Why would they be "shattered" knowing that they Lord was taking care of them?

I think he was referring to Christ's crucifixion here, not ascension. I was going to respond the same way you did, but then I realized that was a possibility.

He's not being very clear. Just vague claims.

 

[Right Divider]

I think he was referring to Christ's crucifixion here, not ascension. I was going to respond the same way you did, but then I realized that was a possibility.

He's not being very clear. Just vague claims.

If that is the case, then he is being very scatterbrained.

They (the 11) were "shattered" for a whole three days...

 

[MWinther]

No it doesn't. This is like saying we shouldn't convince flat-earthers that the earth is round, because they might backslide into flat-earthyness one day.

It was the Catholic theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar who introduced the idea that we are actors on the stage of God's drama. The concept has gained little traction among theologians. Its structure is essentially pagan. A pagan impulse has always been present within Christianity, especially within Catholicism.

 

[MWinther]

What makes you think that?

Is God a liar when He told Israel this?

Heb 13:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(13:5) [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. ​

When Christ departed, they (the 11, soon to be twelve again) went about their business replacing Judas Iscariot. I don't see them "shattered" in any way.


Anticipated what?

Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place for them.

John 14:2-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(14:2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (14:3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.​

Why would they be "shattered" knowing that they Lord was taking care of them?

Please quote the scripture where the Holy Spirit "descended" (hint: it does not say that).

You keep making this vague undefined statement. Define your terms.

Again, this sounds like new age jargon and not biblical Christianity.

The apostles were not serene, confident mystics awaiting resurrection. They were shattered human beings, and the New Testament is remarkably honest about it. Pentecost, in this light, is a reconstitution of a broken community. Taken together, the evidence is overwhelming:

Peter says, "I am going fishing," and the others follow (John 21:3). This is resignation, a return to the life they had before Jesus called them. Mary Magdalene weeps at the tomb (John 20:11–13). Her grief is raw and unfiltered. There is no sense of triumph or expectation, only loss. On the road to Emmaus, two disciples confess: "We had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel" (Luke 24:17–21). Their hope is explicitly described as lost. They are bewildered, grieving, and disoriented.

Furthermore, after the crucifixion, the disciples are described as hiding in a locked room "for fear of the Jews" (John 20:19). This is not calm expectation of resurrection. It is trauma. At the moment of Jesus's arrest, "they all forsook him and fled" (Mark 14:50). This is not the behaviour of men who feel spiritually secure or prepared. It is panic. Peter's denial shows psychological collapse. He denies Jesus three times, then breaks down in tears (Luke 22:54–62). This is a classic sign of someone whose world has fallen apart.

The Holy Spirit certainly descended:

“When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind… And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:1–4)

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

Peter says, "I am going fishing," and the others follow (John 21:3). This is resignation, a return to the life they had before Jesus called them. Mary Magdalene weeps at the tomb (John 20:11–13). Her grief is raw and unfiltered. There is no sense of triumph or expectation, only loss. On the road to Emmaus, two disciples confess: "We had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel" (Luke 24:17–21). Their hope is explicitly described as lost. They are bewildered, grieving, and disoriented.

Furthermore, after the crucifixion, the disciples are described as hiding in a locked room "for fear of the Jews" (John 20:19). This is not calm expectation of resurrection. It is trauma. At the moment of Jesus's arrest, "they all forsook him and fled" (Mark 14:50). This is not the behaviour of men who feel spiritually secure or prepared. It is panic. Peter's denial shows psychological collapse. He denies Jesus three times, then breaks down in tears (Luke 22:54–62). This is a classic sign of someone whose world has fallen apart.

I think you are reading too much into this. The death and suffering of a loved one is one of the most heartbreaking and distressful things any of us will ever experience. Mary, Peter and the apostles were behaving accordingly. Would you have expected them to have a party while Jesus was being crucified? Even Jesus was sad when Lazarus died.

 

[Right Divider]

The apostles were not serene, confident mystics awaiting resurrection.

They were never serene, confident mystics of any kind, before or after the death, burial and resurrection.

They were shattered human beings, and the New Testament is remarkably honest about it.

The fact that Jesus had to die was hidden from them. What does that have to do with anything?

Luke 18:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(18:31) ¶ Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (18:32) For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: (18:33) And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (18:34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. ​

​

When Jesus told Peter about it, Peter tried to stop Him.

​

Matt 16:21-23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(16:21) ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. (16:22) Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. (16:23) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.​

Pentecost, in this light, is a reconstitution of a broken community. Taken together, the evidence is overwhelming:

Overwhelming of WHAT? Their grief?

That they were saddened by the death of Jesus... no kidding... call the news.

This is a point that we Pauline Mid-Acts dispensationalists often make. They, even at and after Pentecost, they were NOT preaching the cross as GOOD NEWS. That began with PAUL! Peter was INDICTING the nation of Israel for MURDERING their Messiah.

Acts 2:23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: ​

That is NOT Peter declaring GOOD NEWS to the people of Israel (the a few proselytes).

Peter says, "I am going fishing," and the others follow (John 21:3).

Peter was a fisherman. What is the POINT? That God "departed from the world" when Jesus died? That did not happen.

This is resignation, a return to the life they had before Jesus called them. Mary Magdalene weeps at the tomb (John 20:11–13). Her grief is raw and unfiltered. There is no sense of triumph or expectation, only loss. On the road to Emmaus, two disciples confess: "We had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel" (Luke 24:17–21). Their hope is explicitly described as lost. They are bewildered, grieving, and disoriented.

Again, what is you POINT? Of course they were sad and dejected. Their Messiah was dead and they did not know about the reason why.

John 20:9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(20:9) For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.​

The Holy Spirit certainly descended:

“When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind… And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:1–4)

Yes, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit... not in exactly the same that we today, in the body of Christ do.

None of what you have shown means that "the divine was absent from the world" (whatever that's supposed to mean) for three days.

 

[MWinther]

They were never serene, confident mystics of any kind, before or after the death, burial and resurrection.

The fact that Jesus had to die was hidden from them. What does that have to do with anything?

Luke 18:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(18:31) ¶ Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (18:32) For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: (18:33) And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (18:34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. ​

​

When Jesus told Peter about it, Peter tried to stop Him.

​

Matt 16:21-23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(16:21) ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. (16:22) Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. (16:23) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.​

Overwhelming of WHAT? Their grief?

That they were saddened by the death of Jesus... no kidding... call the news.

This is a point that we Pauline Mid-Acts dispensationalists often make. They, even at and after Pentecost, they were NOT preaching the cross as GOOD NEWS. That began with PAUL! Peter was INDICTING the nation of Israel for MURDERING their Messiah.

Acts 2:23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: ​

That is NOT Peter declaring GOOD NEWS to the people of Israel (the a few proselytes).

Peter was a fisherman. What is the POINT? That God "departed from the world" when Jesus died? That did not happen.

Again, what is you POINT? Of course they were sad and dejected. Their Messiah was dead and they did not know about the reason why.

John 20:9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(20:9) For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.​

Yes, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit... not in exactly the same that we today, in the body of Christ do.

None of what you have shown means that "the divine was absent from the world" (whatever that's supposed to mean) for three days.

The divine is now absent from the world. Isn't that simply a fact? We have become thoroughly secularized. Is this the hidden problem for Christians, that the world is disenchanted? Stop pretending it isn't.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The divine is now absent from the world. Isn't that simply a fact? We have become thoroughly secularized. Is this the hidden problem for Christians, that the world is disenchanted? Stop pretending it isn't.

False.

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 6:19 - New King James Version

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

www.biblegateway.com

The world being "thoroughly secularized" is due to how evil man is, not because God is absent.

 

[MWinther]

False.

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 6:19 - New King James Version

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

www.biblegateway.com

The world being "thoroughly secularized" is due to how evil man is, not because God is absent.

If God were present in the world in the same way creatures are present then nothing else could truly exist in its own right. A world saturated by divine immediacy would be swallowed by it. Creaturely independence would collapse. Every causal chain, every intention, every movement would be divine by default.

For anything finite to exist as finite, God must not occupy the same ontological "space." God's transcendence is the very condition for creatures' independence.

To allow creatures to be themselves, God must withdraw from the plane of immanent causality. This is not atheism. It is the metaphysical prerequisite for creation.

 

[JudgeRightly]

If God were present in the world in the same way creatures are present then nothing else could truly exist in its own right. A world saturated by divine immediacy would be swallowed by it. Creaturely independence would collapse. Every causal chain, every intention, every movement would be divine by default.

For anything finite to exist as finite, God must not occupy the same ontological "space." God's transcendence is the very condition for creatures' independence.

To allow creatures to be themselves, God must withdraw from the plane of immanent causality. This is not atheism. It is the metaphysical prerequisite for creation.

This is pure nonsense.

God lived in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. Adam still sinned of his own free will.

 

[Right Divider]

The divine is now absent from the world.

Define what that means and when it happened.

Nothing vague, give details!

 

[Nick M]

He's not being very clear. Just vague claims.

With cosmic pixie dust mixed in.

 

[MWinther]

Define what that means and when it happened.

Nothing vague, give details!

My three latest articles deal with precisely this. In pagan times, people believed the world was suffused with divine powers. Christianity marks the abolition of that worldview and the turn towards a transcendent perspective.

 

[MWinther]

This is pure nonsense.

God lived in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. Adam still sinned of his own free will.

This is the mythic perception that Christianity preserves alongside its transcendent perspective, because our imagination can render spirit only through naïve, earthly images. Once, humans imagined themselves living together with the gods. This is a common motif in world religions, expressing the pagan projection of a world saturated with divinity. But as humans became aware that both they and the world around them were merely creaturely beings, the divine projection began to fade. In this sense, the Garden story is true, though not literally. It is not a material or scientific truth, but a spiritual one. Scripture is a spiritual book.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

If God were present in the world in the same way creatures are present then nothing else could truly exist in its own right. A world saturated by divine immediacy would be swallowed by it. Creaturely independence would collapse. Every causal chain, every intention, every movement would be divine by default.

For anything finite to exist as finite, God must not occupy the same ontological "space." God's transcendence is the very condition for creatures' independence.

To allow creatures to be themselves, God must withdraw from the plane of immanent causality. This is not atheism. It is the metaphysical prerequisite for creation.

I've noticed you're not citing any sources.

 

[MWinther]

I've noticed you're not citing any sources.

The 16th‑century Kabbalist Rabbi Isaac Luria offered a brilliant theological response to a classic paradox: How can an infinite, omnipresent God create a finite world without ceasing to be infinite? If God fills all reality, then there is no "space" (conceptual or otherwise) for anything that is not God to exist. If God creates a world, where could it possibly be placed?

Luria's doctrine of Tzimtzum addresses this. Because God is non‑spatial, the "withdrawal" cannot be understood as a physical movement in which God vacates a literal location. Instead, it must be conceived as a concealment of divine manifestation. What contracts is not God's being but the Infinite Light, the overwhelming self‑revelation of God. By veiling this infinite manifestation, God creates a conceptual "void" (chalal) in which finite, autonomous beings can exist without being immediately dissolved by His boundless presence.

 

[Clete]

I propose an atonement model that interprets Christ's redemptive work through the dynamic of cosmic disenchantment, integrating several soteriological frameworks within the broader historical trajectory of secularization. Drawing on Jean‑Luc Nancy, Karl Barth, and Marcel Gauchet, the model begins from the observation that monotheism functions as a kind of "atheism" toward the natural world. By locating the divine wholly in transcendence, Christianity strips the cosmos of inherent sacredness. Secularization, therefore, is not simply the adversary of faith but the historical outworking of Christianity's own demythologizing impulse: the liberation of nature from magical causality and spiritual captivity. Yet this same process exposes humanity to new perils: nihilism, moral dissolution, hedonistic self‑absorption, and political idolatry.

Contemporary "theodramatic" approaches (e.g., Vanhoozer, Moes) attempt to counter these dangers by re‑enchanting the world through renewed emphasis on divine immanence. But framing the material world as the stage of God's dramatic action risks sliding back into a pagan metaphysics in which matter becomes a vessel of divinity, analogous to ancient Egyptian ritual practices where statues were treated as embodiments of the gods. To avoid this confusion, the article distinguishes between horizontal participation (the pagan impulse to locate the divine within the material order) and vertical participation, which directs the believer's desire for communion upward toward the transcendent Kingdom through intellect, spirit, and sacramental life.

Human beings nevertheless retain an archaic, pre‑reflective drive for participation and enchantment. When this subterranean impulse is blocked, whether by militant atheism or by overly rationalized theological systems, it tends to erupt in distorted and destructive forms: political ideologies such as Nazism and Communism, or contemporary conspiracy movements that function as ersatz religions. Theology thus has a crucial diagnostic role, and the Church's sacramental life provides a structured, non‑idolatrous channel for humanity's participatory longings. The sacraments safeguard the boundary between the earthly and the heavenly while preventing the slide into nihilism.

The article ultimately advocates a form of Christian faith that acknowledges the ontological "emptiness" or disenchantment of the material world, yet refuses to leave the human longing for the sacred unaddressed. Instead, it redirects that longing toward a transcendent horizon. Christ's redemptive work thus appears as the decisive moment of cosmic disenchantment: freeing creation from false sacrality while opening the path to true participation in the divine life.

[Moderator Edit: Link Removed]

First, I'd just like to say that it's nice to find someone new on TOL who appears to have read more than one book in his lifetime and who can articulate himself with some degree of linguistic alacrity. This should prove interesting!



Your thesis rests on a key assumption that is quite false, namely, that once Christianity rejects the divinization of nature, the material world is left “ontologically empty” or "disenchanted". That does not follow. Understanding the truth does not lead inexorably to errors such as "nihilism, moral dissolution, hedonistic self‑absorption, and political idolatry." Such things are not a result of accepting the Christian (i.e. the biblical) worldview, but of rejecting it.

There is a clear distinction between saying that the world is not divine and saying that the world is devoid of meaning. Christianity affirms the former but definitely does not affirm the latter. Creation is not a vacuum left behind by the removal of myth; it is an ordered, intelligible reality grounded in the rational nature of God. Its coherence, structure, and reliability are precisely what make knowledge, science, and moral reasoning possible. To call that “disenchantment” is to redefine meaning in terms of mysticism rather than truth.

From that point, the argument shifts its focus. Instead of dealing with truth and error, it begins to deal with human psychological needs, especially the supposed “drive for participation”. The concern becomes how to channel this impulse so that it does not erupt into destructive substitutes such as political ideologies or quasi-religious movements. That observation has some descriptive value, but misidentifies the root problem.

Scripture does not present humanity as fundamentally deprived of enchantment, but as accountable moral agents who suppress what is true. The issue is not that the world feels empty, but that truth is resisted. Reframing the problem as unmet participatory longing shifts the discussion away from objective reality and toward the management of subjective experience.

The proposed solution, especially the appeal to sacramental life as a structured and “non-idolatrous” form of participation effectively reestablishes a mediated system through which access to the divine is regulated and experienced. Yet the New Testament presents access to God as direct, grounded in the finished work of Christ and received by faith, not as something sustained through ritualistic channels designed to manage human longing.

Further, the distinction between “horizontal” and “vertical” participation attempts to avoid paganism, yet it still operates within the same basic category, namely, that the human goal is participation in the sacred as an experiential or ontological state. The biblical emphasis is different. It is grounded in truth, righteousness, and reconciliation, not in the cultivation or redirection of a desire for enchantment.

Finally, the claim that Christ’s redemptive work constitutes a “cosmic disenchantment” mischaracterizes the nature of redemption itself. Redemption does not strip the world of false sacrality only to leave it empty while pointing elsewhere for meaning. On the contrary, it restores proper order, reveals truth, and establishes a right relationship between God and man. The world, rather than being emptied, is rightly understood.

The strength of Christianity is not that it removes enchantment and then offers a controlled substitute. Its strength is that it tells the truth about reality, grounds meaning in the rational nature of God, and provides a coherent basis for both knowledge and moral responsibility without collapsing into either mysticism or nihilism.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

The 16th‑century Kabbalist Rabbi Isaac Luria offered a brilliant theological response to a classic paradox: How can an infinite, omnipresent God create a finite world without ceasing to be infinite? If God fills all reality, then there is no "space" (conceptual or otherwise) for anything that is not God to exist. If God creates a world, where could it possibly be placed?

Luria's doctrine of Tzimtzum addresses this. Because God is non‑spatial, the "withdrawal" cannot be understood as a physical movement in which God vacates a literal location. Instead, it must be conceived as a concealment of divine manifestation. What contracts is not God's being but the Infinite Light, the overwhelming self‑revelation of God. By veiling this infinite manifestation, God creates a conceptual "void" (chalal) in which finite, autonomous beings can exist without being immediately dissolved by His boundless presence.

So God is stuck inside the toilet, eh? Sounds a lot like Calvinistic gobbledygook to me..

 

[Right Divider]

My three latest articles deal with precisely this. In pagan times, people believed the world was suffused with divine powers. Christianity marks the abolition of that worldview and the turn towards a transcendent perspective.

Thanks for the non-answer.

You have some weird mythological timeline of the world. There is no such thing as "pagan times".

Again... DEFINE what it means that "The divine is now absent from the world" and WHEN that occurred.

Hint: It's not true and never happened.

Here are some more hints for you:

• Christianity did not begin on the day of Pentecost.
• Paul was the first member of the body of Christ, i.e., God's church for today.
• Christianity as we know it today is a Pauline construct created by Jesus Christ.
• Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not written about Christianity, but about the fulfillment of prophecy related to the nation of Israel and their covenant relationship with God.
• All believers since Paul have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit (God).
• We are the temple of the Holy Spirit (God).