Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

[Right Divider]

He left the apostles, and it shattered them.

What makes you think that?

Is God a liar when He told Israel this?

Heb 13:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(13:5) [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. ​

When Christ departed, they (the 11, soon to be twelve again) went about their business replacing Judas Iscariot. I don't see them "shattered" in any way.

They had not anticipated it.

Anticipated what?

Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place for them.

John 14:2-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(14:2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (14:3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.​

Why would they be "shattered" knowing that they Lord was taking care of them?

But then Pentecost came, and the Holy Spirit descended.

Please quote the scripture where the Holy Spirit "descended" (hint: it does not say that).

That is the pattern: the world remains empty of the divine unless God chooses to enter it.

You keep making this vague undefined statement. Define your terms.

We are meant to relinquish the notion that we are naturally immersed in the divine presence, for that is a pagan intuition, not a Christian one.

Again, this sounds like new age jargon and not biblical Christianity.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What makes you think that?

Is God a liar when He told Israel this?

Heb 13:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(13:5) [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. ​

When Christ departed, they (the 11, soon to be twelve again) went about their business replacing Judas Iscariot. I don't see them "shattered" in any way.


Anticipated what?

Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place for them.

John 14:2-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(14:2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (14:3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.​

Why would they be "shattered" knowing that they Lord was taking care of them?

I think he was referring to Christ's crucifixion here, not ascension. I was going to respond the same way you did, but then I realized that was a possibility.

He's not being very clear. Just vague claims.

 

[Right Divider]

I think he was referring to Christ's crucifixion here, not ascension. I was going to respond the same way you did, but then I realized that was a possibility.

He's not being very clear. Just vague claims.

If that is the case, then he is being very scatterbrained.

They (the 11) were "shattered" for a whole three days...

 

[MWinther]

No it doesn't. This is like saying we shouldn't convince flat-earthers that the earth is round, because they might backslide into flat-earthyness one day.

It was the Catholic theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar who introduced the idea that we are actors on the stage of God's drama. The concept has gained little traction among theologians. Its structure is essentially pagan. A pagan impulse has always been present within Christianity, especially within Catholicism.

 

[MWinther]

What makes you think that?

Is God a liar when He told Israel this?

Heb 13:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(13:5) [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. ​

When Christ departed, they (the 11, soon to be twelve again) went about their business replacing Judas Iscariot. I don't see them "shattered" in any way.


Anticipated what?

Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place for them.

John 14:2-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(14:2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (14:3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.​

Why would they be "shattered" knowing that they Lord was taking care of them?

Please quote the scripture where the Holy Spirit "descended" (hint: it does not say that).

You keep making this vague undefined statement. Define your terms.

Again, this sounds like new age jargon and not biblical Christianity.

The apostles were not serene, confident mystics awaiting resurrection. They were shattered human beings, and the New Testament is remarkably honest about it. Pentecost, in this light, is a reconstitution of a broken community. Taken together, the evidence is overwhelming:

Peter says, "I am going fishing," and the others follow (John 21:3). This is resignation, a return to the life they had before Jesus called them. Mary Magdalene weeps at the tomb (John 20:11–13). Her grief is raw and unfiltered. There is no sense of triumph or expectation, only loss. On the road to Emmaus, two disciples confess: "We had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel" (Luke 24:17–21). Their hope is explicitly described as lost. They are bewildered, grieving, and disoriented.

Furthermore, after the crucifixion, the disciples are described as hiding in a locked room "for fear of the Jews" (John 20:19). This is not calm expectation of resurrection. It is trauma. At the moment of Jesus's arrest, "they all forsook him and fled" (Mark 14:50). This is not the behaviour of men who feel spiritually secure or prepared. It is panic. Peter's denial shows psychological collapse. He denies Jesus three times, then breaks down in tears (Luke 22:54–62). This is a classic sign of someone whose world has fallen apart.

The Holy Spirit certainly descended:

“When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind… And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:1–4)

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

Peter says, "I am going fishing," and the others follow (John 21:3). This is resignation, a return to the life they had before Jesus called them. Mary Magdalene weeps at the tomb (John 20:11–13). Her grief is raw and unfiltered. There is no sense of triumph or expectation, only loss. On the road to Emmaus, two disciples confess: "We had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel" (Luke 24:17–21). Their hope is explicitly described as lost. They are bewildered, grieving, and disoriented.

Furthermore, after the crucifixion, the disciples are described as hiding in a locked room "for fear of the Jews" (John 20:19). This is not calm expectation of resurrection. It is trauma. At the moment of Jesus's arrest, "they all forsook him and fled" (Mark 14:50). This is not the behaviour of men who feel spiritually secure or prepared. It is panic. Peter's denial shows psychological collapse. He denies Jesus three times, then breaks down in tears (Luke 22:54–62). This is a classic sign of someone whose world has fallen apart.

I think you are reading too much into this. The death and suffering of a loved one is one of the most heartbreaking and distressful things any of us will ever experience. Mary, Peter and the apostles were behaving accordingly. Would you have expected them to have a party while Jesus was being crucified? Even Jesus was sad when Lazarus died.