I think you're mystifying something that isn't. Will is nothing more or less than a conscious decision exercised. So we don't desire to sin in principle, but we yield to it, to temptation, which can attack our intellectual vanity or our sensual inclinations as a creature of biology and we move, intentionally, into that error. Or, to borrow from my answer to the apostate about doubt, sin isn't something that happens to us, it's a choice.
My dear Townie, what a perfect hotch potch of double speech [if you don't mind me saying so 
]
"We don't desire to sin in principle but we yield to it" is saying that sin is stronger tan our will and that we are not free in our will but in bondage. "a choice" you say...rather it is a choice against our choice
Again, if our choices aren't freely made then we aren't responsible for them. If those choices aren't ours then the responsibility for them rests with God and God cannot defy His own nature, which is purely, perfectly good.
Choice is not freewill, if I say to you "you may walk along Piccadilly circus or you may walk along Oxford st" I am not giving you free will to walk where you may. The One who gives the options is the only One who has free sovereign will. And what are the choices? obey and live or rebel and die.
If we obey and live that is God's will, if we rebel and die we are dead.
I say if God had given us free will then God would be responsible for sin...just as if you give Jack free will and he smashes up the neighbourhood it is YOUR fault
That's a separate thing. But we are called by God into relation, so that none might perish but all might have life everlasting and the abundance of our intended design in this life. Unfortunately, being willful, not all accept the gift.
We are born in sin, slaves to our senses and our limitations, which root us in the empirical and move us toward the sating of whatever desires are found there and which move us, ego and appetite. We can choose to have or do, we can even choose to do what others looking on and we ourselves would call good. But we cannot be good and will not escape our natures, our willful missteps. And so grace.
Now you are talkin
If we lacked free will there'd be no need, being created to do what we do and be as we are. It is our rebellion in purpose that requires the cross, as God loves us and love is, we are taught, self sacrificing. Is there a clearer example of that perfect love than the cross?
Oh you've slipped back, man was led into rebellion by being deceived into believing he could sin freely, that is without consequence. This in essence is the same deception the devil uses today...that we can sin without consequence....that is what the crackhead says or the homo,
"God gave me freewill, I can do as I please" you taught them that
From the judgment of our willful acts, to be sure.
Wilful acts are one thing, but we have established that for us sin is against our will
I can demonstrate the error of that this way. A man may say to a woman, not his wife, offering herself in sin, "No". And that same man may think of someone later, cutting in front of him in traffic, a thought that is contrary to God's desire. And the self same mechanism by which he said "No" existed when he said, in essence and to the temptation of that thought, "Yes" and yet we have two distinctly different choices. One that does not require anything of grace and serves the good and the other that requires it and serves a wrong purpose.
Presuming the the thought was anger and therefore murderous you are saying we can choose not to commit adultery but we do commit murder...well my problem maybe that I can't keep my thieving maulers off somebody else's property...maybe someone else is one lying son of a toerag
All you are saying is one is bound by lust, another by sin of anger...lying, stealing. But whatever it is we are bound to sin
And so we find for we know nobody who does not sin. We are BOUND to sin, we are BOUND to die on account of sin.
's no such thing as freewill
It is entirely because we can choose to deny sin, to turn from temptation but do not that we are condemned justly and it is our willful leaning into our imperfection, against what we know to be the good, that requires grace.
He's right. But my son can love me, serve me and err. Sometimes willfully. There is that which we will, but sometimes do not and that which we would do but sometimes fail, to borrow and amend.
See here why I oppose the doctrine of freewill
YOU say when that young fella walked into the school with his automatic rifle, it was his freewill choice to do so. I say he is hopelessly BOUND by the most wicked and evil spirits. If you tell him he did it of his own freewill what hope is there?
Tell him the truth that he is in the grip of Satan and there is hope that he will cry for deliverance from the same. This is the same for ALL sinners.
But nobody will give up freewill...even though it is but an illusion
Hopefully the above explains my contextual sense of the relation between man and sin and grace.
To be sure, to be free of the fetters of that failure and its condemnation.
I think so also. First we are the objects upon which God can perfectly express His nature. And in that expression, through grace, we can respond in and through Christ, who died for us and in whom we are resurrected a new creature clothed in His glory.
When we are saved we receive His life, He LIVES in us....we can be transformed by the renewing of our minds to find ourselves in God's perfect will.
:e4e:
