predestination

[way 2 go]

what does the bible say predestination is ?


the example I heard today was :
if you were flying somewhere on an airplane that airplane is predestined for the place it is flying to.


Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


Joh_6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[Pierac]

The real questions is predestined for what?

You left out this verse... I provided an indepth study on it for your enjoyment.

NASB Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Net Bible Eph 1:11 In Christ we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29(G2820)since we were predestined (G4309)according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will



29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

sn God's own possession. Although God is not mentioned explicitly in the Greek text, it is clear from the context that he has chosen believers for himself. Just as with the nation Israel, the church is God's chosen portion or possession (cf. Deu_32:8-9).


Word study
G2820

κληρόω
klēróō; contracted klērṓ, fut. klērṓsō, from klḗros (G2819), a lot. To cast lots, determine by lot, i.e., to determine something, choose someone. In Eph_1:11, it means, "in whom the lot has fallen upon us also, as foreordained thereto . . . to be" (a.t.). The idea expressed here is that Christians have become heirs of God due to the fact that God predestined them according to His purpose. In a manner of speaking, the "lot" fell to believers not by chance but solely because of the gracious and sovereign decision of God- Almighty to select them to be His heirs.
Deriv.: prosklēróō (G4345), to give or assign by lot.

Word study
G4309
προορίζω
proorízō; fut. proorísō, from pró (G4253), before, and horízō (G3724), to determine. To determine or decree beforehand (Act_4:28; Rom_8:29-30; 1Co_2:7; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11). The peace of the Christian Church has been disrupted due to the misunderstanding which surrounds this word. It behooves the Church to consider the divinely intended meaning of this word by carefully examining the critical passages where it is used.
In 1Co_2:7 it has a thing as its obj., namely, the wisdom of God. The purpose was our glory, i.e., our benefits of salvation.
In Act_4:28 the verb is followed by the aor. inf. genésthai (gínomai [G1096], to be, become), to be done. The action of Herod and Pontius Pilate in crucifying Jesus Christ is said to have been predetermined or foreordained by the hand and will of God. This indicates that Christ's mission, especially His death and resurrection, was not ultimately the result of human will but originated in the eternal counsel of God which decreed the event determining all its primary and secondary causes, instruments, agents, and contingencies.
In Rom_8:29-30, predestination is used of God's actions in eternally decreeing both the objects and goal of His plan of salvation. Proorízō has a personal obj., the pl. relative pron. hoús, whom. This relative pron. refers to those previously mentioned as those whom God foreknew (proégnō [G4267]). The translation is, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." The objects of predestination are those whom He foreknew. Predestination does not involve a predetermined plan only but also includes the individuals for whom the plan is devised. The goal of predestination is expressed in the phrase, "to be conformed to the image of his Son."
In Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11 this same purpose of foreordination is termed adoption. Adoption (huiothesía [G5206]) is the placing into sonship or legal heirship of those who are born of God. According to Eph_1:5 the basis of this prior decree is "the good pleasure of His will." The word rendered "good pleasure" is eudokía (G2107) and means pleasure or satisfaction, that which seems good. Paul is careful to add that it is the good pleasure of God's will, it is what seems good to God-not man. Similarly, in Eph_1:11 foreordination is based upon "the purpose (próthesis [G4286]) of the One who is working all things ([neut. acc. pl.] tá pánta [G3844], an idiom for the entire metaphysical and physical universe) according to the decision of His will" (a.t.). This same thinking is reflected in Rom_8:30 where foreordination is joined successively to foreknowledge. Here it is presented not as a capricious, arbitrary or whimsical exercise of raw will or unreasoned impulse, but as the expression of a deliberate and wise plan which purposes to redeem those undeserving sinners whom God freely favors as the objects of His mercy.
Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.
Syn.: protássō (G4384), to appoint before; procheirízō (G4400), to appoint beforehand; proetoimázō (G4282), to prepare before.

Oh, and don't leave out Acts 13:48!

Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

NASB Joh 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

CEV Joh 17:2 And you gave him power over all people, so that he would give eternal life to everyone you give him.

John 17:2... kinda goes along with John 6:44 you posted and of course Acts 13:48....


This topic freaks people out, not so sure it's cool to continue as no one but God has a say as to whom it has been appointed.

oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Truster]

The term predestination is not correct as it does not convey the power found in the original term which is translated into English and gives predetermination.

 

[Pierac]

The term predestination is not correct as it does not convey the power found in the original term which is translated into English and gives predetermination.

I believe the original term... Chosen by Lot... translated into English is pretty straight forward! as is...

Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. :readthis:

Do you see any predetermination in Acts 13:48... :nono:

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

This verse was written, decades before the New testament was created... thus All OT scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness

Lets review...

NASB Pro 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is
from the LORD.

CEV Pro 16:1 We humans make plans, but the LORD has the final word.

NASB Pro 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

CEV Pro 16:9 We make our own plans, but the LORD decides where we will go.


NASB Pro 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?

Pro 20:24 The steps of a person73 are ordained by74 the LORD — so how can anyone75
understand his own way?

Pro 20:24

73 tn Heb "the steps of a man"; but "man" is the noun גֶּבֶר (gever, in pause), indicating an important, powerful person. BDB 149-50 s.v. suggests it is used of men in their role of defending women and children; if that can be validated, then a translation of "man" would be appropriate here. But the line seems to have a wider, more general application. The "steps" represent (by implied comparison) the course of life (cf. NLT "the road we travel").

74 tn Heb "from the LORD"; NRSV "ordered by the Lord"; NIV "directed by the Lord."

sn To say that one's steps are ordained by the LORD means that one's course of actions, one's whole life, is divinely prepared and sovereignly superintended (e.g., Gen_50:26; Pro_3:6). Ironically, man is not actually in control of his own steps.

75 tn The verse uses an independent nominative absolute to point up the contrast between the mortal and the immortal: "and man, how can he understand his way?" The verb in the sentence would then be classified as a potential imperfect; and the whole question rhetorical. It is affirming that humans cannot understand very much at all about their lives.

NASB Jer 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

Net Jer 10:23 LORD, we know that people do not control their own destiny. It is not in their power to determine what will happen to them.

CEV Jer 10:23 I know, LORD, that we humans are not in control of our own lives.


I warned you this topic freaks people out... they fail to see....

1Ti 4:9 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. 11 Command and teach these things.

Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Just what does this mean?

Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

1Jo 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Propitiation
1. The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.
2. In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of men. Rom 3. 1 John

Predestination is about who will be in the 1000 year reign with our Lord and King! What? you think Jesus will reign forever? think again!!!

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Again... this topic is not cool for most... It freaks them out! They grasp at any thing they are told just to believe they have a say in salvation! The truth is we don't!

The truth is...

Belief is a GIFT - Phil 1:29 - "For you have been granted [the gift] to grant as a favor for Christ's sake not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer in His behalf."


Faith is a GIFT - Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [ the gift of] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

My friend... Your faith and belief came to you from God... thus the true understanding of Jesus' teachings... NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Not all are chosen...
NASB Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

CEV Mat 22:14 Many are invited, but only a few are chosen.


ESV Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."

Don't look at predestination as the salvation of the Soul... Look at it in terms of the 1000 year reign. Remember God is LOVE!

NASB Mar 4:11 And he said to them,"To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Do you really think the God of Love did not want these people to see the truth and repent in Mark 4:11? Just so he could burn them in hell for eternity... We have no idea of Gods love and plan for the human race!

The traditions of men... confuses the truth of predestination for all of us seekers of the truth!
oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Truster]

I've given you the fact. I can't give you either the spiritual enlightenment nor ability to understand and accept the fact.

 

[Pierac]

The term predestination is not correct as it does not convey the power found in the original term which is translated into English and gives predetermination.

I've given you the fact. I can't give you either the spiritual enlightenment nor ability to understand and accept the fact.

Sorry but making a comment, does not make it a fact!


Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Appointed does not equal predetermination

G5021
τάσσω
tassō
tas'-so
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot)
Syn.: títhēmi (G5087), to place, appoint, settle, ordain; apókeimai (G606), to be reserved, appointed, laid aside for a certain purpose; diatíthemai (G1303), to set apart, to appoint; kathístēmi (G2525), to designate, appoint, place.


:think:
Paul

 

[Truster]

Sorry but making a comment, does not make it a fact!


Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Appointed does not equal predetermination

G5021
τάσσω
tassō
tas'-so
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot)
Syn.: títhēmi (G5087), to place, appoint, settle, ordain; apókeimai (G606), to be reserved, appointed, laid aside for a certain purpose; diatíthemai (G1303), to set apart, to appoint; kathístēmi (G2525), to designate, appoint, place.


:think:
Paul

I don't make comments I just state facts.

 

[Nang]

what does the bible say predestination is ?

“Predestination” is the biblical teaching of the absolute Sovereignty of Creator God and promises of His everlasting will determined and decreed, which reveals the everlasting purpose of all His works.

Which includes the everlasting destiny of all souls.

 

[Truster]

Destiny has to do with the destination. Determination is the power behind the decree. Predetermination contains and includes predestination, but predestination does not contain or convey predetermination.

Instead of just repeating things parrot fashion people should find out what the words used actually mean and then you would know what you're talking about. "Instead of stumbling like blind men at noonday".

 

[MennoSota]

https://youtu.be/NH3a874RcNo

 

[way 2 go]

:think:

[MENTION=14978]PneumaPsucheSoma[/MENTION]

All who have been conceived in this lapsed cosmos have been procreated by the means God delegated as mediate creation. God is not perpetually creatING persons and things. He spoke once at the divine utterance and is a life-from-life seed God. All mediate creation has been post-lapse. All procreation has taken place after the fall of man into spiritual death and sin.

In God’s eternal pre-creational noumenon, He did not foreknow anyone (within the bounds of chronological time as the earth age/s) who does not ultimately communion with Him by being hypostatically translated into Christ and partaking of the divine nature of God from time into timelessness. Those who have/do are communing with God “before” He spoke to create (but there is no “before” for God, only for those who are created and are in the lapsed cosmos’ form of time).

Those who aren’t hypostatically joined to Christ do not have a “real” hypostasis. Their underlying reality of ontological existence is only in accordance and compatibility with the resulting state of being of the cosmos relative to the alternate existence of the post-lapse creation. The quality of that existence is NOT the reality of God’s Logos, who is the instrument of the divine utterance to create.

So the reality of the original divinely ordered creation and the ultimate new heavens and new earth are “real”, while the lapsed condition of the cosmos is not. So all the hypostases in the lapsed cosmos must be translated into Christ and resurrected from both forms of death (spiritual and physical) to have any true reality of existence.

All of this is what the Quantum fields are attempting to say and demonstrate, but their failure is in thinking that tangible reality is superordinate to intangible reality (an Artistotelian premise as opposed to a Platonist premise - both being wrong). Just because something has a form of tangible reality, it doesn’t mean they have a “real” functional existence in the sense of divine order for creation.

Those who are conceived in spiritual death and sin (the state of being) are brought forth into a kind of existence that isn’t reality according to divine decree and order. So all who physically die in that state of being are those who were never foreknown, and thus never predestinated to be conformed to the image of God’s Son.

These are those who were not noumenon in God’s eternal immutable mind to bring forth into phenomenality of existence. And this would require a prolonged excursis into phaino/phenomena and nous/noumena. It is not what is would seem to be on the surface of just hearing this summary.

(Calvin TRIED to say these things, but only accomplished presenting Linear Determinism with no distinctions between Aeviternity and Eternity relative to Temporality.)

 

[way 2 go]

Oh, and don't leave out Acts 13:48!

Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

NASB Joh 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

CEV Joh 17:2 And you gave him power over all people, so that he would give eternal life to everyone you give him.

John 17:2... kinda goes along with John 6:44 you posted and of course Acts 13:48....


This topic freaks people out, not so sure it's cool to continue as no one but God has a say as to whom it has been appointed.

oly::sherlock:
Paul

:up:

you're right this topic freaks people out

 

[ttruscott]

I believe the original term... Chosen by Lot... translated into English is pretty straight forward! as is...

If you mean by a form of lottery or chance then no, I cannot agree; I go with Strong's
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
assign or obtain an inheritance.From kleros; to allot, i.e. (figuratively) to assign (a privilege) -- obtain an inheritance.

 

[Nang]

"In historic events the so-called great men are labels giving names to events, and like labels they have the smallest connection with the event itself.

Every act of theirs, which appears to them an act of their own will, is in an historical sense involuntary, and is related to the whole course of history and predestined from eternity."

Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

 

[Lon]

you're right this topic freaks people out

"Destined, before" Such carries the idea 1) That God has known you and 2) that he loves, cares, and has provided for you.

The converse might freak people out, but for those whom He has saved, it would express a comfort and rest in Him. -Lon

 

[Nang]

"Destined, before" Such carries the idea 1) That God has known you and 2) that he loves, cares, and has provided for you.

The converse might freak people out, but for those whom He has saved, it would express a comfort and rest in Him. -Lon

Amen!

Only those souls trusting in the predetermining power, merits & grace of Jesus Christ appreciate & experience true rest in God’s sovereign will & works for His people.

 

[oatmeal]

what does the bible say predestination is ?


the example I heard today was :
if you were flying somewhere on an airplane that airplane is predestined for the place it is flying to.


Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


Joh_6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

It is vital that we recognize that God's foreknowledge precedes predestination.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


God gave humans free will, ie, the freedom and ability to choose what we think and what we do, or at attempt to think and do. Man fails at his plans many a time because his thoughts are not based on reality.

God looking ahead from before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4, (that is from our point of view) sees that you are going to believe, chooses you because you would eventually choose to believe. God foreknowing this plans ahead for your life much like a person would prepare for the arrival of a guest that the host knows is coming.

The Greek word for "predestination" means to mark out beforehand. God foresaw who would choose to believe and marked them out beforehand.

 

[way 2 go]

"Destined, before" Such carries the idea 1) That God has known you and 2) that he loves, cares, and has provided for you.

The converse might freak people out, but for those whom He has saved, it would express a comfort and rest in Him. -Lon

"Destined, before" without context would mean no choice, would it not ?

and no choice would freak some people out .

 

[Lon]

"Destined, before" without context would mean no choice, would it not ?

and no choice would freak some people out .

I think if someone jumped in and saved me from drowning, like a parent or a lifeguard is somewhat 'predestined' (reason they are there). To me, great comfort while swimming. Carried over, it brings comfort for life as well. Oddly, there are people that don't like lifeguards or their parents (most of them fairly decent and definitely would jump in to save them). Context is good for the discussion: Jesus jumped in, not holding onto Godliness, but Philippians 2....etc. Some people take no comfort. For we who love the Lord Jesus Christ and those who will, a great comfort and not creepy at all. I think it is at the very least, something one can appreciate, whether they hold to the position or not. As long as we find the beauty of another's systematic theology, much good is served, even in the disagreement. In our Dear Lord and Savior, -Lon

 

[Lon]

God gave humans free will, ie, the freedom and ability to choose what we think and what we do, or at attempt to think and do. Man fails at his plans many a time because his thoughts are not based on reality.

I still very much believe we had no freewill UNTIL the serpent led Genesis 3:1-5 I see 'free' will as the result, not the gift.

God looking ahead from before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4, (that is from our point of view) sees that you are going to believe, chooses you because you would eventually choose to believe. God foreknowing this plans ahead for your life much like a person would prepare for the arrival of a guest that the host knows is coming.

The Greek word for "predestination" means to mark out beforehand. God foresaw who would choose to believe and marked them out beforehand.

This is the Arminian position, not the Open or Calvinist one (preliminary, just pointing out the important disagreement differences at this point). Calvinists believe God knows because Colossians 1:17 and John 15:5 are taken literally. The Open Theist believes, like you, that freewill is a gift and that God chose to limit the scope of His knowledge and doesn't know, just 'waits and sees who will be saved" and His efforts may be thwarted by resistance of man.