pre existence
- Thread starter jaybird
- Start date
I do not know the answer to your question, if it is heresy, what it means, and if it is true.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Pre existence?
To exist before existence?
Either something exists or it does not.
Seems like a foolish word with a foolish meaning.
oatmeal
Well-known member
His beginning, his gennesis is given in Matthew 1:18
God certainly planned and foreknew of Jesus Christ's eventual life, but was not literally alive until his conception and birth.
jaybird
New member
i never thought about it like that but now that you mention it it is kind of a contradictory statement. but then again the phrase itself was not coined until many years later. i would guess those that taught against the idea were the ones that coined the phrase.
Would you say that you believe that Jesus is not the creator?
ttruscott
Well-known member
The type of answers I get are that their whole theology is based upon the one supposition, that we are created new on earth at conception (Traducianism) or at birth, (Creationism of the Soul) and without it, they fail...
ttruscott
Well-known member
Some factions call the pre-existence theology heresy but as a believer I call it heterodox* as it doesn't denigrate GOD in the least but rather honours HIM for not creating evil by any means whatever and with giving us a realistic free will by which all sin is self chosen by each person, not inherited in the least.
*Heterodoxy in a religious sense means "any opinions or doctrines at variance with an official or orthodox position". Under this definition, heterodoxy is similar to unorthodoxy, while the adjective "heterodox" could be applied to a dissident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterodoxy This would mean all Protestants, Calvinists and Arminians are heterodox from the pov of the CC.
Heresy is a contradiction of established doctrine: an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heresy This would mean all Protestants, Calvinists and Arminians are heretics from the pov of the CC.
Since it is the same definition, heresy is usually separated from the merely heterodox by being inimical to the glory of GOD as destructive to HIS religion while the heterodox has no such implication and is about things that do not matter to salvation.
So is the blasphemy that GOD creates evil people by making those who had no choice to be sinners in Adam a heterodox opinion or a heresy? Is the blasphemy that HE creates evil by knowing who would choose evil and be damned before their creation but CREATED THEM ANYWAY, a heterodox idea or a heresy? Does rejecting these blasphemies denigrate GOD's glory or enhance it?
Hard to say, eh?
ttruscott
Well-known member
Very cute - it refers to our living as Spirits in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe which everyone watched being made and sang HIS praises: Job 38:7, which also destroyed the excuses of every person for rejecting the knowledge of GOD, Rom 1:20+.
I call it our Pre-Conception Existence to try to be clearer.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Of course - I am a firm Trinitarian.
It is important to be able to work through something that is false.Some factions call the pre-existence theology heresy but as a believer I call it heterodox* as it doesn't denigrate GOD in the least but rather honours HIM for not creating evil by any means whatever and with giving us a realistic free will by which all sin is self chosen by each person, not inherited in the least.
*Heterodoxy in a religious sense means "any opinions or doctrines at variance with an official or orthodox position". Under this definition, heterodoxy is similar to unorthodoxy, while the adjective "heterodox" could be applied to a dissident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterodoxy This would mean all Protestants, Calvinists and Arminians are heterodox from the pov of the CC.
Heresy is a contradiction of established doctrine: an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heresy This would mean all Protestants, Calvinists and Arminians are heretics from the pov of the CC.
Since it is the same definition, heresy is usually separated from the merely heterodox by being inimical to the glory of GOD as destructive to HIS religion while the heterodox has no such implication and is about things that do not matter to salvation.
So is the blasphemy that GOD creates evil people by making those who had no choice to be sinners in Adam a heterodox opinion or a heresy? Is the blasphemy that HE creates evil by knowing who would choose evil and be damned before their creation but CREATED THEM ANYWAY, a heterodox idea or a heresy? Does rejecting these blasphemies denigrate GOD's glory or enhance it?
Hard to say, eh?
I was not expecting that answer from anyone, but can we talk about it?
jaybird
New member
Some factions call the pre-existence theology heresy but as a believer I call it heterodox* as it doesn't denigrate GOD in the least but rather honours HIM for not creating evil by any means whatever and with giving us a realistic free will by which all sin is self chosen by each person, not inherited in the least.
*Heterodoxy in a religious sense means "any opinions or doctrines at variance with an official or orthodox position". Under this definition, heterodoxy is similar to unorthodoxy, while the adjective "heterodox" could be applied to a dissident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterodoxy This would mean all Protestants, Calvinists and Arminians are heterodox from the pov of the CC.
Heresy is a contradiction of established doctrine: an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heresy This would mean all Protestants, Calvinists and Arminians are heretics from the pov of the CC.
Since it is the same definition, heresy is usually separated from the merely heterodox by being inimical to the glory of GOD as destructive to HIS religion while the heterodox has no such implication and is about things that do not matter to salvation.
So is the blasphemy that GOD creates evil people by making those who had no choice to be sinners in Adam a heterodox opinion or a heresy? Is the blasphemy that HE creates evil by knowing who would choose evil and be damned before their creation but CREATED THEM ANYWAY, a heterodox idea or a heresy? Does rejecting these blasphemies denigrate GOD's glory or enhance it?
Hard to say, eh?
i agree with you, i believe its against the norm but not against scripture. the official position of most churches is its heresy. i like you pointed out what heresy is, its an idea contrary to doctrine, but thats not how we are taught, we are taught heresy is an idea contrary to the bible.
the sad thing about so many of the doctrines is they have to have more doctrines to support them, and it goes on and on and on.
insightful as usual.
iouae
Well-known member
It is neither. Everyone on earth today is a sinner by their own choice, not due to Adam or Eve's.
Everyone had the choice themselves. So the question is much like "Did you stop beating your wife today?", a loaded question.
God does not know who will sin or when until they do it in real time. So again no difficulty there.
It is a question asked by messed up theology. God created all men to be saved. He offers salvation to all. There would be some sort of conflict IF GOD COULD SEE INTO THE FUTURE but He cannot, therefore end of discussion.
Why is every misunderstanding we have a blasphemy?
God has shown His glory by creating such a wonderful world, by giving us free choice, even to sin while He lets us, and then by wiping sinners out after they have enjoyed 70 years of life, while giving eternal life to His friends. There is only goodness of God and grace here.
I must add, the wicked do not burn forever in hell, they are burnt UP in an instant in the lake of fire. Now that would be mean-spirited of God to torture those who reject Him, forever. But again, false theology (like Dante's) teaches an eternally tormenting hell. Luckily, this idea, is a load of crock.
Hard to say, eh?
Not really.
WatchmanOnTheWall
New member
Because some main stream theologies are heresy to start with. We have all existed since day one.
jaybird
New member
i have read one of the reasons was that Greek philosophy had influenced many Christians and the church had to weed this out. but this makes little sense, Greeks were teaching this 300 years before Jesus, Essenes 200 years before Jesus and Akhenaten 1500 years before Jesus. this idea didnt just all of a sudden show up, it had been around for a while.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Do you think your statement solves the argument of centuries? I accept at face value:
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
How can they be brought forth in iniquity, by nature the children of wrath estranged from the womb, and yet be said to have a free will choice to become sinners? I have an answer - what is yours?
I believe this but how do you reconcile it with HIS omniscience?
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning... therefore I discount your theory.
Because these misunderstandings make GOD the creator of evil, a blasphemy to HIS good name as righteous with no evil in HIM, as light with no darkness in HIM...
Your aspersions of others does not make you a voice of truth, especially when you contradict scripture without explanation.