musterion
Well-known member
The heavier the chains, the greater the sense of freedom once they're shed?
ECT Prayer request for a Jehovah's Witness
- Thread starter musterion
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The heavier the chains, the greater the sense of freedom once they're shed?
NWL
Active member
If this is your understanding of what Jehovah's witnesses believe about the entrance to the kingdom then you're starting off on the wrong foot, since that is NOT what Jehovah's witnesses believe.
JW's do not work out salvation, we understand it is a free gift from God. However, free things in life often come with terms and conditions. Think of the hundreds of "free prize draws" competitions you've no doubt seen in your life time, you enter into them freely and if you win you get the prize for free. But as you've probably noticed those 'Free prize draws' always come with terms and conditions which you must abide by to receive that free gift, if you go contrary to those terms and conditions your place in line for that free gift becomes void.
Its much the same for Gods free gift which he has in line for us. It is 100% free, and no amount of works can help achieve that free gift. BUT for that gift to be available to us we must stick to Gods terms and conditions which he has put in place to receive salvation.
One of those terms and conditions is to obey Jesus which is shown in the verse below.
(Hebrews 5:9) "...And after he [Jesus] had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him..."
As we can see from the verse above if salvation belongs to those who obey Jesus, then the opposite of salvation must belong to those who don't obey Jesus. Furthermore, if we are to obey Jesus then there must be a command we must obey, one of those commands is to preach, which can be seen below.
(Matthew 28:19) "...Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit..."
(Romans 10:10) "...For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation... how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?..."
It is evident in Matthew 7 that the term and condition to obey is of vital importance, not works and not faith/belief alone.
(Matthew 7:21) "...Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will..."
Thus it is wrong to conclude that the Jehovah's witnesses preaching is to be seen as some type of works in their behalf to gain salvation. It is simply a reflection of the command to obey Jesus and do the will of the Father.
If you were to address the JW coming to your door as you so plainly did I'm quite sure he would let of a deep sigh in his heart in behalf of your ignorance to our beliefs. I hope I've saved you from that.
FYI you couldn't be more wrong about Paul. Look and see what Paul stated, Phil 2:12, “As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” This was addressed to “the saints,” or holy ones, at Philippi, as stated in Philippians 1:1. Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to realize that their final salvation was not yet assured. As you hopefully can see the working out salvation has nothing to do with actual works but obedience, obedience which is needed to gain salvation which Heb 5:9 so plainly states.
#23
Free gift on terms and conditions = no free gift, it is the talk of a secondhand car salesman...which God is not
Free gift on terms and conditions = no free gift, it is the talk of a secondhand car salesman...which God is not
oatmeal
Well-known member
I prayed that you will learn what they understand correctly.
musterion
Well-known member
Take your ignorant condescension elsewhere. You need to believe the Gospel of grace as badly as any JW.
We will pray that some Christian comes to your door with the truth.
musterion
Well-known member
He's already heard it here many times, but has argued with it, denied it and rejected it as false. The fact that he subtly came to the defense of the Watchtower tells you which kingdom he lives in.
Do you need a Christian to come to your door too?
musterion
Well-known member
Looks like Scotts' a no-show. A black couple and and older white man were making the rounds about three houses away but did not come on my end of the street. Neighbor said he saw them heading off the other way. I'm going to assume I now have the big invisible "X" on my door, but will continue to pray for Scott's conviction, and hope you all will as well! He's heard the Gospel and only God gives the growth. Thank you all! Gotta go air up a tire now.
maybe you're talking to him/them now. still. and maybe you will attend the Kingdom Hall there - lol
atrol:never mind - disregard
Their best are carefully and specifically trained in their tactics, and have many years ahead of us all, in dealing with the various issues you are likely to present them with.
But, regardless of cult, their issue is Galatianism - "oh how I am going to do something for the Lord that will make Him accept me; how good I feel now, oh how I love God..."
And their book is "Holy" to them. Mormons use a KJV along with their Book of Mormon, and their Doctrine and Covenants. So, no problem; use a KJV if you know your way around in it well.
JWs have their own "TNWT." Along the Apostle Paul's "as under the Law, that I might win some," I'd used their TNWT, as it is "holy" to them, but is basically laid out like the Bible.
But brush up on their passages so you know the corruptions, and simply avoid going to them.
In the absence of that, you open with a topic centered around the works issue.
And when they begin to jump from topic to topic, as they often do, for the confusion they will need towards reeling you in; bring them back to the original topic each time.
You will basically be dealing with any would be cult's leader's and or victim's typical tactic.
Meaning, you will here a lot of "Of course we know that" such and so.. "so it stands to reason that anyone with an open mind would... right off concede that a trinity this, and a Spirit that, and God dying on a stake.." and blah, blah, blah...
That is the tactic of the cult - it is meant to shame one into feeling less than, and stupid, and ashamed, and all the rest. The attempted reeling into the idea that the cult leader alone has the answers, has begun...
It goes all the way back to Genesis 3's "serpent was more subtle than all the beast of the field" thus his "Yea, hath God said?"
Everyone of any former cult will report this sense of worthlessness they not only allowed on themselves, their spouse, their children, but in turn, practiced on anyone who so much as said "hello."
You will be dealing with such a victimizing victim.
And you will be dealing with its intent on you.
Praying up is fine - as your helmet.
But that with that Sword the Lord drew on the Adversary in Matthew 4:4 is your weapon.
Prayer on these issues being more the refocusing of the outlook needed throughout.
As one wise A9D Grace preacher has often put it "if you want God over there; quit just praying about it - get over there; He's in you!"
musterion
Well-known member
Except for Paul's flat statement that members of Christ are already in the Kingdom. That won't compute for any cultist, nor for any professing Christian who denies eternal security in Christ. In their minds, that surety is simply impossible to possess (many will call deride it as "presumption" or something similar) because it must be either earned by works or maintained/proven (same thing) by works (Lordship Salvation, etc).
True. And Scott was honest enough to admit that, which was as unusual as it was refreshing.
I already had Colossians 1:13 called up on my phone, from the JW's official NWT webpage. It reads pretty much the same.
Why brush up on what is to be avoided?
Did that last week.
Did it. That's when he promised to return today to respond to the promises made to the Body of Christ and explain to me why none of them can be claimed by either of us.
Those are their typical rabbit trails but not one of them came up. Had they, I'd have steered him right back to the issue at hand: if Paul says people can be in the Kingdom NOW, and the Watchtower says they can't, one of them is wrong so pick which you will believe cuz you can't believe both. I did get to say that last week and that's when he decided to leave.
When I was a baby Christian, I tasted a little "love bombing" and a just a bit of the humiliating "Confess Your Worst Sin to this Group of Discipling Men." Though it wasn't at the hands of an actual cult, that fact makes it even worse because it was nonetheless cultic.
Yup.
Had he been so inclined (it looks like I may never know), Scott never got that far.
I feel quite fine praying for, and asking others to pray for his salvation, just the same.
Scott is not my enemy. My battle isn't with him, or anyone like him, but with the one who has blinded him.
Um...okay.
Yup.As one wise A9D Grace preacher has often put it "if you want God over there; quit just praying about it - get over there; He's in you!"
Must,
Praying up is fine - as your helmet.
I too "feel quite fine praying for, and asking others to pray for his salvation, just the same."
I simply understand it from within A9D.
Where the issue; this side of "that which is perfect" - the [full] knowledge revelation of the Mystery we now have in written form - is the issue of what prayer is meant to focus one on as to another, as one prays for them.
That, for example, is the heart of the Apostle Paul's prayers throughout - who he was praying for.
Paul would then exercise his own will in line with the doctrine he was given to preach, teach, and lay out in written form.
For he was, is to the Body as "the Apostle of the Gentiles," in this Mystery Grace, what Moses was to Israel as their great, God given, Law giver.
I say that more to those outside "the choir."
Both Moses and Paul are often found asserting things with an authority over much, and in each their respective writings, that no other writers of Scripture do.
Thus, when we of A9D aka Mid-Acts, appear to harp on and on that ""Paul said this, and Paul sad that.." it is no different then all those times in the other writers' "Moses said this, what did Moses command," and so on.
Even the Lord Himself followed this practice...
Matthew 8:
4. And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Matthew 23:
1. Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2. Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mark 10:
2. And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
3. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
And so on...
Acts 26:
15. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17. Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18. To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
1 Corinthians 11:
1. Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
1 Corinthians 14:
36. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
That right there is also a means of dealing with cultists - as with Christianity in general, they haven't a clue as to impact of the above that even the Church long ago lost sight of.
Thus, as we pray for them, in light of the doctrine (the Pauline teaching), what the doctrine is meant to work in us towards them, is made effectual by the effectual working of the doctrine we are praying for them based on.
Not "Lord deliver them.." but "Lord deliver them through your Word; let it be the issue when I meet with them."
1 Thessalonians 2:
13. For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Praying up is fine - as your helmet.
I too "feel quite fine praying for, and asking others to pray for his salvation, just the same."
I simply understand it from within A9D.
Where the issue; this side of "that which is perfect" - the [full] knowledge revelation of the Mystery we now have in written form - is the issue of what prayer is meant to focus one on as to another, as one prays for them.
That, for example, is the heart of the Apostle Paul's prayers throughout - who he was praying for.
Paul would then exercise his own will in line with the doctrine he was given to preach, teach, and lay out in written form.
For he was, is to the Body as "the Apostle of the Gentiles," in this Mystery Grace, what Moses was to Israel as their great, God given, Law giver.
I say that more to those outside "the choir."
Both Moses and Paul are often found asserting things with an authority over much, and in each their respective writings, that no other writers of Scripture do.
Thus, when we of A9D aka Mid-Acts, appear to harp on and on that ""Paul said this, and Paul sad that.." it is no different then all those times in the other writers' "Moses said this, what did Moses command," and so on.
Even the Lord Himself followed this practice...
Matthew 8:
4. And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Matthew 23:
1. Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2. Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mark 10:
2. And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
3. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
And so on...
Acts 26:
15. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17. Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18. To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
1 Corinthians 11:
1. Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
1 Corinthians 14:
36. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
That right there is also a means of dealing with cultists - as with Christianity in general, they haven't a clue as to impact of the above that even the Church long ago lost sight of.
Thus, as we pray for them, in light of the doctrine (the Pauline teaching), what the doctrine is meant to work in us towards them, is made effectual by the effectual working of the doctrine we are praying for them based on.
Not "Lord deliver them.." but "Lord deliver them through your Word; let it be the issue when I meet with them."
1 Thessalonians 2:
13. For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Figures...always wondered if you were part of, or sympathetic to, the JW cult. Guess you answered that...
atrol:
musterion
Well-known member
Figures...always wondered if you were part of, or sympathetic to, the JW cult. Guess you answered that...
I know, right? I had a JW tell me to my face that my understanding of Watchtower doctrine is accurate, but that's not good enough for the deliberately contentious.
