Pearl Harbor and FDR?

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bybee

New member
I watched a "History" channel expose of the events leading up to Pearl Harbor. It appears that there is enough evidence to strongly suggest that FDR knew about the imminent attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese and deliberately kept it secret so as to provoke American public opinion to enter WWII? One telling piece of evidence is the keeping of the fleet at Pearl Harbor rather than returning it to San Diego where it was usually based? Then there are memo's "For FDR's eyes only" regarding the cracking of Japanese codes and communiques telling of the imminent attack?
If something can be kept secret long enough, even when it is exposed, a cloud of misinformation and obfuscation can keep the truth from ever being known.
It seems that the "Benghazi" cover up falls under the same shroud of secrecy? And the "IRS" scandal also covered up beyond recovery?
But the most frightening thing to me is the release of FIVE TERRORIST'S guilty of heinous crimes against America for one
traitor? This too is shrouded in mystery and being dragged out to such an extent that we shall, likely, not know the true meaning or implications? Then, there is the "Obama's Children Crusade" wherein thousands of innocent children are sent unaccompanied by their parents across our borders to a "Promised Land" of milk and honey?
One must wonder where all of this is taking our nation?
 

PureX

Well-known member
I watched a "History" channel expose of the events leading up to Pearl Harbor. It appears that there is enough evidence to strongly suggest that FDR knew about the imminent attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese and deliberately kept it secret so as to provoke American public opinion to enter WWII? One telling piece of evidence is the keeping of the fleet at Pearl Harbor rather than returning it to San Diego where it was usually based? Then there are memo's "For FDR's eyes only" regarding the cracking of Japanese codes and communiques telling of the imminent attack?
If something can be kept secret long enough, even when it is exposed, a cloud of misinformation and obfuscation can keep the truth from ever being known.
It seems that the "Benghazi" cover up falls under the same shroud of secrecy? And the "IRS" scandal also covered up beyond recovery?
But the most frightening thing to me is the release of FIVE TERRORIST'S guilty of heinous crimes against America for one
traitor? This too is shrouded in mystery and being dragged out to such an extent that we shall, likely, not know the true meaning or implications? Then, there is the "Obama's Children Crusade" wherein thousands of innocent children are sent unaccompanied by their parents across our borders to a "Promised Land" of milk and honey?
One must wonder where all of this is taking our nation?
I think you are confusing a "coverup" of incompetence after the fact, with malicious intent before the fact.

The U.S. government (under both Clinton and Bush) had enough information to have surmised the 9/11 attack. But through natural bureaucratic neglect and incompetence, it was not able to put two and two together. Then, after the attack happened, the conspiracy sellers dig up this information, and used it to imply that the government knew of the attack before it happened (see, here's the evidence!) but did nothing to stop it, on purpose. Which is simply a lie.

Don't believe their lies. They are just selling conspiracies for fun and profit to suckers who are too weak-minded or ill-willed to be appropriately skeptical of them.
 

bybee

New member
I think you are confusing a "coverup" of incompetence after the fact, with malicious intent before the fact.

The U.S. government (under both Clinton and Bush) had enough information to have surmised the 9/11 attack. But through natural bureaucratic neglect and incompetence, it was not able to put two and two together. Then, after the attack happened, the conspiracy sellers dig up this information, and used it to imply that the government knew of the attack before it happened (see, here's the evidence!) but did nothing to stop it, on purpose. Which is simply a lie.

Don't believe their lies. They are just selling conspiracies for fun and profit to suckers who are too weak-minded or ill-willed to be appropriately skeptical of them.

Perhaps I am too feeble minded and incompetent to comprehend the vast machinations of government behind the scenes?
I doubt that I am "weak minded" so that just leaves "ill will". I have plenty of that.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I watched a "History" channel expose of the events leading up to Pearl Harbor.

That should explain it right there. The same channel that has....those alien shows as though they are matter of fact. Bigfoot, ghosts, monsterquest (only footage was a freshwater shark), etc etc.
 
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Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
It seems that the "Benghazi" cover up falls under the same shroud of secrecy? And the "IRS" scandal also covered up beyond recovery?

Now those are real scandals.

If the code was cracked for Pearl Harbor, who cracked it? Who wrote the memos? It is nonsense. It was thought with Pearl Harbor they had the perfect position of ships-against other ships.
 
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PureX

Well-known member
Perhaps I am too feeble minded and incompetent to comprehend the vast machinations of government behind the scenes?
I doubt that I am "weak minded" so that just leaves "ill will". I have plenty of that.
I doubt that anyone, including the government itself, has a clue about the "vast machinations behind the scenes". For the most part those "vast machinations" involve the left hand having no idea what the right hand is doing, and likewise.
 
I doubt that anyone, including the government itself, has a clue about the "vast machinations behind the scenes". For the most part those "vast machinations" involve the left hand having no idea what the right hand is doing, and likewise.

I agree completely with PureX and was also going to use the 9-11 analogy. I also saw that History C show and they're full of it---as usual. FDR wanted to stay out of the war or at least delay our entry into it as long as possible--- and there's massive evidence for that. But like all our politicians over the last 150 years he was too STUPID and IGNORANT to realize that cutting off oil from Japan would lead to war.

I also compare that type of ignorance to what Reagan did by arming the Taliban to defeat the Soviets. They, our presidents, appoint these Harvard "educated" morons who know zip about the true nature of other cultures and how they will react to our policies.
 

bybee

New member
I agree completely with PureX and was also going to use the 9-11 analogy. I also saw that History C show and they're full of it---as usual. FDR wanted to stay out of the war or at least delay our entry into it as long as possible--- and there's massive evidence for that. But like all our politicians over the last 150 years he was too STUPID and IGNORANT to realize that cutting off oil from Japan would lead to war.

I also compare that type of ignorance to what Reagan did by arming the Taliban to defeat the Soviets. They, our presidents, appoint these Harvard "educated" morons who know zip about the true nature of other cultures and how they will react to our policies.

Interesting....
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
That should explain it right there. The same channel that has....those alien shows as though they are matter of fact. Bigfoot, ghosts, monsterquest (only footage was a freshwater shark), etc etc.

<Snip>

Bybee, I saved some stuff to my computer and what you were saying reminded me of it. Not sure of the article's name but the author James Perloff.

One of the most important elements in America’s foreknowledge of Japan’s intentions was our government’s success in cracking Japan’s secret diplomatic code known as “Purple.” Tokyo used it to communicate to its embassies and consulates, including those in Washington and Hawaii. The code was so complex that it was enciphered and deciphered by machine. A talented group of American cryptoanalysts broke the code in 1940 and devised a facsimile of the Japanese machine. These, utilized by the intelligence sections of both the War and Navy departments, swiftly revealed Japan’s diplomatic messages. The deciphered texts were nicknamed “Magic.” Copies of Magic were always promptly delivered in locked pouches to President Roosevelt, and the secretaries of State, War, and Navy. They also went to Army Chief of Staff General George Marshall and to the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Harold Stark. However, although three Purple decoding machines were allotted to Britain, none was sent to Pearl Harbor. Intercepts of ciphered messages radioed between Tokyo and its Honolulu consulate had to be forwarded to Washington for decrypting. Thus Kimmel and Short, the Hawaiian commanders, were at the mercy of Washington for feedback. A request for their own decoding machine was rebuffed on the grounds that diplomatic traffic was of insufficient interest to soldiers. How untrue that was! On October 9, 1941, the War Department decoded a Tokyo-to-Honolulu dispatch instructing the Consul General to divide Pearl Harbor into five specified areas and to report the exact locations of American ships therein. There is nothing unusual about spies watching ship movements – but reporting precise whereabouts of ships in dock has only one implication. Charles Willoughby, Douglas MacArthur’s chief of intelligence, later wrote that the “reports were on a grid system of the inner harbor with coordinate locations of American men of war … coordinate grid is the classical method for pinpoint target designation; our battleships had suddenly become targets.” This information was never sent to Kimmel or Short.

Additional intercepts were decoded by Washington, all within one day of their original transmission:
• November 5th: Tokyo notified its Washington ambassadors that November 25th was the deadline for an agreement with the U.S.
• November 11th: They were warned, “The situation is nearing a climax, and the time is getting short.”
• November 16th: The deadline was pushed up to November 29th. “The deadline absolutely cannot be changed,” the dispatch said. “After that, things are automatically going to happen.”
• November 29th (the U.S. ultimatum had now been received): The ambassadors were told a rupture in negotiations was “inevitable,” but that Japan’s leaders “do not wish you to give the impression that negotiations are broken off.”
• November 30th: Tokyo ordered its Berlin embassy to inform the Germans that “the breaking out of war may come quicker than anyone dreams.”
• December 1st: The deadline was again moved ahead. “[T]o prevent the United States from becoming unduly suspicious, we have been advising the press and others that … the negotiations are continuing.”
• December 1st-2nd: The Japanese embassies in non-Axis nations around the world were directed to dispose of their secret documents and all but one copy of their codes. (This was for a reason easy to fathom – when war breaks out, the diplomatic offices of a hostile state lose their immunity and are normally overtaken. One copy of code was retained so that final instructions could be received, after which the last code copy would be destroyed.) An additional warning came via the so-called “winds” message. A November 18th intercept indicated that, if a break in U.S. relations were forthcoming, Tokyo would issue a special radio warning. This would not be in the Purple code, as it was intended to reach consulates and lesser agencies of Japan not equipped with the code or one of its machines. The message, to be repeated three times during a weather report, was “Higashi no kaze ame,” meaning “East wind, rain.” “East wind” signified the United States; “rain” signified diplomatic split – in effect, war. This prospective message was deemed so significant that U.S. radio monitors were constantly watching for it, and the Navy Department typed it up on special reminder cards. On December 4th, “Higashi no kaze ame” was indeed broadcast and picked up by Washington intelligence. On three different occasions since 1894, Japan had made surprise attacks coinciding with breaks in diplomatic relations. This history was not lost on President Roosevelt. Secretary Stimson, describing FDR’s White House conference of November 25th, noted: “The President said the Japanese were notorious for making an attack without warning and stated that we might be attacked, say next Monday, for example.” Nor was it lost on Washington’s senior military officers, all of them War College graduates. As Robert Stinnett has revealed, Washington was not only deciphering Japanese diplomatic messages, but naval dispatches as well. President Roosevelt had access to these intercepts via his routing officer, Lieutenant Commander McCollum, who had authored the original eight-point plan of provocation to Japan. So much secrecy has surrounded these naval dispatches that their existence was not revealed during any of the ten Pearl Harbor investigations, even the mini-probe Congress conducted in 1995. Most of Stinnett’s requests for documents concerning Pearl Harbor have been denied as still classified, even under the Freedom of Information Act. It was long presumed that as the Japanese fleet approached Pearl Harbor, it maintained complete radio silence. This is untrue. The fleet barely observed discretion, let alone silence. Naval intelligence intercepted and translated numerous dispatches, some clearly revealing that Pearl Harbor had been targeted. The most significant was the following, sent by Admiral Yamamoto to the Japanese First Air Fleet on November 26, 1941:

The task force, keeping its movement strictly secret and maintaining close guard against submarines and aircraft, shall advance into Hawaiian waters, and upon the very opening of hostilities shall attack the main force of the United States fleet and deal it a mortal blow. The first air raid is planned for the dawn of x-day. Exact date to be given by later order.
 

bybee

New member
<Snip>

Bybee, I saved some stuff to my computer and what you were saying reminded me of it. Not sure of the article's name but the author James Perloff.

One of the most important elements in America’s foreknowledge of Japan’s intentions was our government’s success in cracking Japan’s secret diplomatic code known as “Purple.” Tokyo used it to communicate to its embassies and consulates, including those in Washington and Hawaii. The code was so complex that it was enciphered and deciphered by machine. A talented group of American cryptoanalysts broke the code in 1940 and devised a facsimile of the Japanese machine. These, utilized by the intelligence sections of both the War and Navy departments, swiftly revealed Japan’s diplomatic messages. The deciphered texts were nicknamed “Magic.” Copies of Magic were always promptly delivered in locked pouches to President Roosevelt, and the secretaries of State, War, and Navy. They also went to Army Chief of Staff General George Marshall and to the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Harold Stark. However, although three Purple decoding machines were allotted to Britain, none was sent to Pearl Harbor. Intercepts of ciphered messages radioed between Tokyo and its Honolulu consulate had to be forwarded to Washington for decrypting. Thus Kimmel and Short, the Hawaiian commanders, were at the mercy of Washington for feedback. A request for their own decoding machine was rebuffed on the grounds that diplomatic traffic was of insufficient interest to soldiers. How untrue that was! On October 9, 1941, the War Department decoded a Tokyo-to-Honolulu dispatch instructing the Consul General to divide Pearl Harbor into five specified areas and to report the exact locations of American ships therein. There is nothing unusual about spies watching ship movements – but reporting precise whereabouts of ships in dock has only one implication. Charles Willoughby, Douglas MacArthur’s chief of intelligence, later wrote that the “reports were on a grid system of the inner harbor with coordinate locations of American men of war … coordinate grid is the classical method for pinpoint target designation; our battleships had suddenly become targets.” This information was never sent to Kimmel or Short.

Additional intercepts were decoded by Washington, all within one day of their original transmission:
• November 5th: Tokyo notified its Washington ambassadors that November 25th was the deadline for an agreement with the U.S.
• November 11th: They were warned, “The situation is nearing a climax, and the time is getting short.”
• November 16th: The deadline was pushed up to November 29th. “The deadline absolutely cannot be changed,” the dispatch said. “After that, things are automatically going to happen.”
• November 29th (the U.S. ultimatum had now been received): The ambassadors were told a rupture in negotiations was “inevitable,” but that Japan’s leaders “do not wish you to give the impression that negotiations are broken off.”
• November 30th: Tokyo ordered its Berlin embassy to inform the Germans that “the breaking out of war may come quicker than anyone dreams.”
• December 1st: The deadline was again moved ahead. “[T]o prevent the United States from becoming unduly suspicious, we have been advising the press and others that … the negotiations are continuing.”
• December 1st-2nd: The Japanese embassies in non-Axis nations around the world were directed to dispose of their secret documents and all but one copy of their codes. (This was for a reason easy to fathom – when war breaks out, the diplomatic offices of a hostile state lose their immunity and are normally overtaken. One copy of code was retained so that final instructions could be received, after which the last code copy would be destroyed.) An additional warning came via the so-called “winds” message. A November 18th intercept indicated that, if a break in U.S. relations were forthcoming, Tokyo would issue a special radio warning. This would not be in the Purple code, as it was intended to reach consulates and lesser agencies of Japan not equipped with the code or one of its machines. The message, to be repeated three times during a weather report, was “Higashi no kaze ame,” meaning “East wind, rain.” “East wind” signified the United States; “rain” signified diplomatic split – in effect, war. This prospective message was deemed so significant that U.S. radio monitors were constantly watching for it, and the Navy Department typed it up on special reminder cards. On December 4th, “Higashi no kaze ame” was indeed broadcast and picked up by Washington intelligence. On three different occasions since 1894, Japan had made surprise attacks coinciding with breaks in diplomatic relations. This history was not lost on President Roosevelt. Secretary Stimson, describing FDR’s White House conference of November 25th, noted: “The President said the Japanese were notorious for making an attack without warning and stated that we might be attacked, say next Monday, for example.” Nor was it lost on Washington’s senior military officers, all of them War College graduates. As Robert Stinnett has revealed, Washington was not only deciphering Japanese diplomatic messages, but naval dispatches as well. President Roosevelt had access to these intercepts via his routing officer, Lieutenant Commander McCollum, who had authored the original eight-point plan of provocation to Japan. So much secrecy has surrounded these naval dispatches that their existence was not revealed during any of the ten Pearl Harbor investigations, even the mini-probe Congress conducted in 1995. Most of Stinnett’s requests for documents concerning Pearl Harbor have been denied as still classified, even under the Freedom of Information Act. It was long presumed that as the Japanese fleet approached Pearl Harbor, it maintained complete radio silence. This is untrue. The fleet barely observed discretion, let alone silence. Naval intelligence intercepted and translated numerous dispatches, some clearly revealing that Pearl Harbor had been targeted. The most significant was the following, sent by Admiral Yamamoto to the Japanese First Air Fleet on November 26, 1941:

The task force, keeping its movement strictly secret and maintaining close guard against submarines and aircraft, shall advance into Hawaiian waters, and upon the very opening of hostilities shall attack the main force of the United States fleet and deal it a mortal blow. The first air raid is planned for the dawn of x-day. Exact date to be given by later order.

Thanks! Seems to prove what the History Channel program was asserting?
 

Buzzword

New member
Reminds me of a certain well-written comic book passage:
toobig2.gif


The bigger question is, does it make any difference to the results of WW2?

The result of the attack is that we got moving, we got into the war, and we won.
If it hadn't?
If the attack on Pearl Harbor had paralyzed us completely and let us be overrun and conquered?
Then letting it happen would absolutely be worthy of condemnation.

But hindsight seventy years later isn't exactly the most precise method of finding clarity, especially, as Purex pointed out, when it involves sifting through mountains of bureaucratic paperwork.
 

resurrected

BANNED
Banned
if fdr hadn't forced the japanese to attack us at Pearl Harbor, they never would have massacred the chinese at nanking :dizzy:
 
drbrumby's article......

drbrumby's article......

Good article drbrumby cited but it says,

"On three different occasions since 1894, Japan had made surprise attacks coinciding with breaks in diplomatic relations. This history was not lost on President Roosevelt. Secretary Stimson, describing FDR’s White House conference of November 25th, noted: “The President said the Japanese were notorious for making an attack without warning and stated that we might be attacked, say next Monday, for example.” Nor was it lost on Washington’s senior military officers, all of them War College graduates."

To think that all these people conspired to allow the forces at Perl Harbor to be murdered by the Japs and then kept it quite about it till their deaths is simply not believable. These people loved the military and loved their country and if they believe an attack was eminent all they had to do is make one phone call. Yes, there was probably some suspicion/worry that there'd be a surprise attack but (sorry about this) people are just STUPID. Think for example that a Jap mini-sub was sunk in Pearl just before the attack and the Brass did nothing, zip, about it (mini-subs can't travel thousands of miles on their own). People aren't just stupid but they get way, way too complacent when it should be obvious things are about to go to hell (like in this country right now). FDR was also a navy man and I seriously doubt he'd allow men to be murdered in mass if he could prevent it. Additionally, anybody who actually thought the attack on Pearl was a sure thing and could add 2 and 2 would have also realized at this time that the Japs were going to war no matter what--whether they succeeded in Pearl or not. The did, in fact, attack about 6 other places around the same time. And further yet, it's just stupid to think that FDR, or the so-called many "senior officers" cited in D's article, wouldn't at least warn Pearl to expect an attack. Why not? It's not an act of war to do whatever on one's own military base and/or to have aircraft constantly in the air. It's not a "act of provocation" to do so. It could be done relatively secretly and with one phone call.

The History Channel is notorious for dwelling in conspiracies and sensationalism---though occasionally there is some good stuff.
 
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drbrumley

Well-known member
Excerpt from Pearl Harbor Revisited

Excerpt from Pearl Harbor Revisited

Good article drbrumby cited but it says,

"On three different occasions since 1894, Japan had made surprise attacks coinciding with breaks in diplomatic relations. This history was not lost on President Roosevelt. Secretary Stimson, describing FDR’s White House conference of November 25th, noted: “The President said the Japanese were notorious for making an attack without warning and stated that we might be attacked, say next Monday, for example.” Nor was it lost on Washington’s senior military officers, all of them War College graduates."

To think that all these people conspired to allow the forces at Perl Harbor to be murdered by the Japs and then kept it quite about it till their deaths is simply not believable. These people loved the military and loved their country and if they believe an attack was eminent all they had to do is make one phone call. Yes, there was probably some suspicion/worry that there'd be a surprise attack but (sorry about this) people are just STUPID. Think for example that a Jap mini-sub was sunk in Pearl just before the attack and the Brass did nothing, zip, about it (mini-subs can't travel thousands of miles on their own). People aren't just stupid but they get way, way too complacent when it should be obvious things are about to go to hell (like in this country right now). FDR was also a navy man and I seriously doubt he'd allow men to be murdered in mass if he could prevent it. Additionally, anybody who actually thought the attack on Pearl was a sure thing and could add 2 and 2 would have also realized at this time that the Japs were going to war no matter what--whether they succeeded in Pearl or not. The did, in fact, attack about 6 other places around the same time. And further yet, it's just stupid to think that FDR, or the so-called many "senior officers" cited in D's article, wouldn't at least warn Pearl to expect an attack. Why not? It's not an act of war to do whatever on one's own military base and/or to have aircraft constantly in the air. It's not a "act of provocation" to do so. It could be done relatively secretly and with one phone call.

The History Channel is notorious for dwelling in conspiracies and sensationalism---though occasionally there is some good stuff.

When I was a kid, "Remember Pearl Harbor" was a righteous battle
cry for me as well as, I suspect, most Americans. America the good
and innocent, I and others believed, and most Americans who remember
Pearl Harbor probably still believe, had been sneak attacked by
the dastardly Japanese and forced to become involved in WWII. But
there is good reason to believe that the sainted FDR and much of
our leadership of the time were neither good nor innocent. I
in no way want to come across as being sympathetic toward the brutal Japanese military of WWII, or as excusing their sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. But not only did FDR and his bunch provoke the
Japanese into attacking us, and not only is there good reason to
believe that he allowed that sneak attack to occur in order to get
us into the war, but he actually was preparing to launch his own
sneak attack on Japan. And while the Japanese concentrated on military targets at Pearl Harbor, their objective being to cripple our Pacific
fleet, our preemptive sneak attack on Japan was to be carried
out under the flag of another nation, and was to be aimed at
burning out cities in order to cripple that country's industry and
to terrorize its civilian populace. Day of infamy, indeed!
 

PureX

Well-known member
Good article drbrumby cited but it says,

"On three different occasions since 1894, Japan had made surprise attacks coinciding with breaks in diplomatic relations. This history was not lost on President Roosevelt. Secretary Stimson, describing FDR’s White House conference of November 25th, noted: “The President said the Japanese were notorious for making an attack without warning and stated that we might be attacked, say next Monday, for example.” Nor was it lost on Washington’s senior military officers, all of them War College graduates."

To think that all these people conspired to allow the forces at Perl Harbor to be murdered by the Japs and then kept it quite about it till their deaths is simply not believable. These people loved the military and loved their country and if they believe an attack was eminent all they had to do is make one phone call. Yes, there was probably some suspicion/worry that there'd be a surprise attack but (sorry about this) people are just STUPID. Think for example that a Jap mini-sub was sunk in Pearl just before the attack and the Brass did nothing, zip, about it (mini-subs can't travel thousands of miles on their own). People aren't just stupid but they get way, way too complacent when it should be obvious things are about to go to hell (like in this country right now). FDR was also a navy man and I seriously doubt he'd allow men to be murdered in mass if he could prevent it. Additionally, anybody who actually thought the attack on Pearl was a sure thing and could add 2 and 2 would have also realized at this time that the Japs were going to war no matter what--whether they succeeded in Pearl or not. The did, in fact, attack about 6 other places around the same time. And further yet, it's just stupid to think that FDR, or the so-called many "senior officers" cited in D's article, wouldn't at least warn Pearl to expect an attack. Why not? It's not an act of war to do whatever on one's own military base and/or to have aircraft constantly in the air. It's not a "act of provocation" to do so. It could be done relatively secretly and with one phone call.

The History Channel is notorious for dwelling in conspiracies and sensationalism---though occasionally there is some good stuff.
And besides all that, that attack would have served it's purpose for FDR even if he had warned the troops and we had been ready for it, had protected ourselves, and had 'surprised' the attackers with a devastating defense. In fact, if he really had known of the attack in advance, I think that's exactly what he'd have done. And he still would have had their attack as a reason to enter the war.
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
And besides all that, that attack would have served it's purpose for FDR even if he had warned the troops and we had been ready for it, had protected ourselves, and had 'surprised' the attackers with a devastating defense. In fact, if he really had known of the attack in advance, I think that's exactly what he'd have done. And he still would have had their attack as a reason to enter the war.

The sympathy factor of the American people was needed.
 
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