Theology Club: Open Theism and our Relationship orientated God

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Shenanigans? I won't be pulling any here. I'll save those for the "wild".

I have come here to explain why I accept the label of Open Theist. I'll keep this simple and try to express it in a way that allows for discussion and collaboration. I would like to ensure I "belong" here and am "welcome" here. Here goes...

OPEN THEISM - Because a "CLOSED" system of theology suggests that we have nothing more to learn from our True Teacher... (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8) .. a solid defense of this point can be found in (Daniel 12:4) ... and if Jesus, Himself says "Mark 13:32" ... then it is fairly presumptive of individuals to "Close" theology and suggest that there's no effort required, because other people have figured it all out. Cough... Cough... (Apparently these people know more than the Son)

OPEN and SINCERE RELATIONSHIP - Love, Relationship; This is another major point. All through Scripture, God explains that His entire purpose of Creation is for "His Son". We also know the SON as the LOGOS and very "WORD, PROMISE, ROCK, PILLAR OF FIRE BY NIGHT, CLOUD BY DAY... Etc". We are assured in scripture that God has had a Father, Son relationship that is ETERNAL. When Jesus describes the coming of the Comforter... We have other verses that distinguish the "Comforter" as (Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19 and so on), but a really mysterious set of verses are (John 10:30 and John 14:23). This suggests that the Holy Spirit is the very unity of Jesus the Son with His Father, within us! Within our HEARTS! If this isn't the most intimate relationship in my life, I don't know what else could be. My Point? God demonstrates His desire for sincere Relationship with us in EVERY Word of Scripture. Of-coarse, the biggest proof verse is (John 5:39f) and a the very lengths that Jesus went to so He could dwell in our Hearts! (Heb. 2:14)

OPEN WITHIN TIME - If one ponders that God limited His foreknowledge through His Son, all of those pesky doctrines that struggle to explain how God isn't a tyrant, but created a "Free" system that allowed Evil to manifest itself within said system, fall away. It becomes simple. The Son has always been the limited in foreknowledge presence of God within Time. This concept genuinely exonerates ONE that needed no exoneration in the first place. This also solidifies that the Theophanies in scripture are no Less than the LOGOS, Eternal SON that is truly Blameless!

OPEN HEART - By recognizing that God went to such great lengths to relate to us, we can see that he cherishes the unfolding relationship of Himself to Humanity and each individual human being. If this doesn't open a persons heart to Jesus, I don't know what else could. He even proved His love for us by Dying for us, while we were yet sinners and utter enemies.

Why start posting here? Because, I feel like many of the carnal understandings held within my grey matter, that the HOLY SPIRIT has conveyed through His amazing ways, are in opposition to much of "Closed Theism". I don't want to offend my Siblings in Christ any more than I already have with some of the matters that I look forward to discussing here in the future. I am looking forward to discussing these matters with fellow Open Theists.

I have to confess. I try to be an all inclusive person... but I am sincerely desiring dialog with genuine Open Theists. I'm not here to debate opposing views to Open Theology. I recognize that Open Theists are afforded to discuss matters of different understanding among one another, and I look forward to this.

My hopes from this OP are to prime a conversation with fellow open theists and find out if what I'm saying is on par with a home for my personal understanding of God as it stands today. I genuinely believe in progressive revelation, and scripture seems to agree with me on this particular point.
 
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Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] , [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] , [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION], [MENTION=15326]intojoy[/MENTION]

What say ye?
 
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glorydaz

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I guess I have to disagree in regards to two things (if I'm reading you correctly).

That the Spirit is actually the Father and Son combined, and that the Son was limited in knowledge.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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I guess I have to disagree in regards to two things (if I'm reading you correctly).

That the Spirit is actually the Father and Son combined, and that the Son was limited in knowledge.

Excellent!!! I would then guess that the rest was somewhat on point in your assessment. This is the kick off point and the place where I express to you that I forever welcome a different view. I believe there is a theological point that is deeply important in my expression that the Son is limited in foreknowledge. I will site one bread crumb to carry this discussion on (Mark 13:32) ...

When scripture says "world", it has a reverberating insinuation towards the universe. There are differing versions of the word "Kosmos", but I would think that we are clear that the differences are merely in tense and such. This means that when Jesus says He is the Light of the World, it shows that He is the presence of God within time. (In my understanding). This would insinuate that there is a way that God has fashioned everything through the Son as scripture says, that removes His Fatherly omnipotence from the issue.

When I say Father, I identify the Father (Spirit) that we see hovering "Above" the "Waters" of Creation. In Hebrew, the word Hover is likened unto a maternal Eagle, hovering over its young's nest. In (John 1:3), we see a verse that is very important to our very understanding of how God is Omnipotent, but relates within Time. i fully believe that the Father is beyond, even, Time.

This being said... I also note that there is a very specific point that I hope to have the opportunity to make over future discussion that shows that God designed a free will system and "Limited His Foreknowledge" within that system, to allow an unfolding relationship that is personal and sincere, with all of creation. Note... Any other theological path leads to a Calvinistic Predestination.

I will attach a spoiler that I made in study that conveys this and a bit more.

Spoiler
- Evidence (Baptism)... The Ark of Noah and the Ark of the Covenant. The Israelites through the DEAD SEA... (Jesus is the Name)... Jesus is the Logos! Yehoshua... Jesus is Greek for Joshua.. In Hebrew, after Israel's initial invasion and diaspora, the name Joshua was written Yeshua... but.. Pre Invasion and diaspora... the HO was inserted to denote the name of God within the name Yeshua. (Yehoshua). This means YHWH is Salvation!

- Focus on LOGOS ... I hypothisize that the LOGOS of God is the physical revelation of God... within time! ... This is a strong Explanation for why Jesus didn't know things the "Father" knew. Jesus... bound to humanity and fully the "Father's Son" and "Fully God" and fully "Humanities Son"... Yet fully without sin and in the "Likeness" of sinful flesh... yet... without Sin in HIS FLESH.

This would fully explain why the LOGOS is With God and IS God. It is not a duplicity or polytheistic revelation... The LOGOS of God is the very "presence of God" within CREATION and what we understand as TIME.. God as Spirit... THE SPIRIT that Hovered in Gen 1:2 ... is fully beyond what we understand as time.

Omniscience and Omnipresence are fully understood in this model, and yet God Created everything in a way that allowed Him to connect to time in a Temporal fashion. This makes God fully relational and fully able to sincerely experience all creation in a manner that frees Him from the responsibility of granting free will. God granted free will with Love and wanted us to trust in His Logos... (Tree of Life), but the Fullness of God in Character is to know "Good and Evil", and God alone can bare this burden! We were fools to try to "Be Like God"!

(John 10:30) "I and My Father are one.”

The third Heaven is without TIME... Because it is the DOMINION of GOD! Time is a constraint and God has NO constraint!

What does water represent in scripture? (Death and Life)

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(Gen. 1:1) ... In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (The beginning of God? I think not. Infinity cannot be contained within a "finite" system. (1 Ki. 8:27) ... “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!"...

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(John 10:30 + Gn. 1:2)

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How could anyone miss the obvious meaning of these passages?

Mt. 14:26 ... (John 10:30)

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(Gen. 1:2) ... The earth was without form, and void; and (Like the SPIRIT) darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. (1 Co. 13:12) ... "12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."

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Gn. 1:3 ... 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. (John 8:12)... Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

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(1 Pt. 3:20f) Jesus is our ARK of the PROMISE (Gn. 9:13) ... All we must do is (Jn. 6:29)

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(1 Cor. 10:1f,2f, 4f) (John 6:29, 61f, 63 + (John 14:6)) + (Romans 8:9 + Php. 1:19)

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(1 Tim. 3:16 + John 10:30 + Mt. 28:19 + Ac. 2:23; 19:5 + 1 Pt. 3:21 + Eph. 1:13 + Rm. 8:9 + Php. 1:19) + (Gn. 1:2) ... The face "was" beneath the "dark" sea of death... but... NOT ANYMORE! Behold... (John 14:7f, 9)

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(Ps. 31:5 + Lk. 23:46)

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(Numbers 20:11)(John 19:34)(1 Co. 10:4)

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(Mt. 14:27f, 29f, 31f) (Ex. 14:14) (Luke 1:52)

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(Romans 5:5 + Romans 8:9)

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(Titus 3:6f)

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(Eph. 5:26)

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Mt. 25:6 ... Ps. 19:5 ... Joel 2:16 ...

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You zeroed in on this and sought clarification...

We have other verses that distinguish the "Comforter" as (Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19 and so on), but a really mysterious set of verses are (John 10:30 and John 14:23). This suggests that the Holy Spirit is the very unity of Jesus the Son with His Father, within us!

I distinguish the Father as (Spirit/Mind and Invisibly EVERYWHERE)... The Son as (Physical Presence of God/Body ... Within Creation and Time) and the Holy Spirit as (Soul of God ... Within Us... us who are sealed per... {Eph. 1:13} and Within the Father and Son as the literal fullness of God). This theologically explains how God is One, but Three. My Body, Soul and Spirit are bound within time and not able to do what God's Body, Soul and Spirit are capable of ... nor do I expect to ever be in such the way that God "IS". But... We can see a reoccurring matter within scripture, in light of this. I will post one more spoiler that I have worked up to further explain this matter.

Before I do so... Please re-read my Quote with (John 14:11 and Rm. 8:9) in mind.

Note... I am a Triunitarian. I believe God is Tri(3)-Une(1)... In-fact... I only add the "U", because the simple word (Trinity) seems to make people lazy in scripture and sometimes, unable to express the (Une) part of "Our God is Triune".

This is a beginning, exhaustive study that I am working up... It is a further expression of the quote that you are seeking clarification on.

Spoiler
Spirit (Gn. 1:2) = Father that is beyond time and universe (Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent) - (1 Kings 8:27)

Body - Logos - Light - Son - (Word of God as Breath - Pneuma) and Spoken Word, Presence of God within Creation) - (Gn. 1:3; John 1:1; 8:12; 9:5)

Spirit + Body (Gn. 2:7) = Soul (1 Thes. 5:23)

Father (Gn. 1:2 + 1 Ki. 8:27 + Col 1:15) + (Logos) Son (John 10:30 + Col. 1:15 + John 1:1) = Holy Spirit (John 14:21, 23; 1 John 4:15f; Ps. 91:1; {1 John 2:24 + Gn. 1:3 + John 8:13 + John 1:1 + John 14:11 + John 14:1} John 12:35; John 3:19; Job 33:28; John 1:4f, 6f, 8f; Lk 1:78f; Ps. 18:28; Is. 9:2; Mal. 4:2; Is. 50:10 {Php. 2:9f}; John 14:6; Ps. 97:11; Ac. 26:23; Rev. 21:24; Hosea 6:3)

Spirit (Father) - Flesh of the Universe - Born of God - (Void without God) - (Gn. 1:1, 2)

Spirit Breaths (Logos Presence) into (Void without God) - Spirit, Father, Mind (Gn. 1:3) Word, Logos, Light, Glory of God (John 8:12; John 9:5; 12:46)

..... the following is shorthand that will be extrapolated over the next two weeks.

God drew the very Universe from death and nothing.

God then Indwelled the Universe as its source of Life and thus God is the first life to fill this universe.

The union of God and the Substance of creation Would make the Soul (Rm. 1:20) or Ruach Hakadesh of the Universe (The union of the Light and Creation)

in this... we are given the tools of the (Trinity Revelation) to understand Spiritual Mystery that is specifically to bring the Light forth within us, By HIS WORK alone. This is our FOUNDATION OF FAITH revelation of scripture and it reverberates through ALL scripture.

I will be making short hand to link the revelations to scripture. To anchor to the TRUTH... (God {Jesus - The Living Breathing God is Salvation} Spirit, Body and Soul) Spirit (Father), Body (Logos) and Soul (Holy Spirit)... God is infinite and has always Lived and Breathed... God is the LIFE and Origin of all Life, as well as the literal LIFE that binds Substance to Life! Therefore... the idea of saying the Spirit is not the Soul is not the Body is not relevant when referencing our origin. Because the Spirit, Logos and Soul of God are all (The Living Breathing God is Salvation)... all other results past this must be distinguished as separated and unified. God alone is uniquely UNE and God's TRI is not only a TRUTH, but very mechanism of His divine Creation with enormous THEOLOGICAL implications that have been missed in key CHURCH doctrine! In other words... The Logos or presence of God that is "Limited" in foreknowledge is the way God separated His provision of Loving Free Will from the possible Abuse of Free Will and again... the Logos is afforded the ability to RELATE with mankind on a direct basis of time, as the Logos is the very presence of God "Within" time for the (And He will leave His Father and Mother for this purpose) purpose of intimate relation with all created life!

(Origin + Result = Work of God or Satan "depending on context") Shorthand Key

Spirit + Creation = Logos (God Within Creation, within time)

"Pneuma" + Creation Substance = Mankind

"Pneuma" + Rib of Mankind (Substance of Man) = Woman (Bride) (Mother of Humanity)

"Pneuma" + Woman (Bride) = Relationship With God (Picture of the Ecclesiastical and Members of Christ Church... unified in Spirit and Logos)

Woman - Faith (Belief) by deceit of Serpent to trade faith in Logos for a desire to BE LIKE God and thus disconnect the fabric of Creation from GOD and Mankind from the Perpetual Provision of God = Analogy (A battery disconnected from It's Charger, thus a corse towards DEATH and VOID... De-Creation.. and Destruction)

Abraham + Faith in God, instead of trying to Be God = (God sets apart a people through Abraham)

Israel + Moses (Torah / Pentateuch) = Picture of Diametric difference between Creator and Creation

Logos + Israel = Ecclesiastical Church (Set apart) (1st Bride of God)

Ecclesiastical Church + Tabrinacal = Picture Of God dwelling within us and as more than our simple source of existence (again, as at Creation, when we were "in" the Logos)

Camp of Israel + Meeting Tent outside the Camp = Picture of God to Gentiles and many other reverberated Spiritual implications throughout ALL scripture!

Pneuma (Spirit *Matthew 1:18*) + Ecclesiastical Church (That Traces back to Eve) = (John 1:14) Jesus (The Living Breathing God is Salvation)

Ecclesiastical Church + Rejection of Christ = Rm. 11:25-36 and Widow / Divorce

Jesus + Humanity outside of Ecclesiastical Church = (2nd Bride Of God)

Father (Invisible Spirit... Gn. 1:2; Col. 1:15; John 10:30; 14:1) + Son (Logos) Lk. 23:46; Psalm 31:5) = (John 14:23; John 10:30; Eph. 2:8f; Php. 1:19)

God + Our Faith (Eph. 2:8f) = Seals us with His Indwelling Spirit (Eph. 1:13; Php. 1:19; Rm. 8:9)

https://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-references/search?q=Ephesians+1:13


I look forward to yours and anyone's comments on this. I welcome differing perspective and disagreement with me.

I would like to ask you two questions... since you held my feet to the theological fire on two of my points.

1) Is that literally Jesus ... within your heart?
2) What does Jesus mean by "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me"?
 
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Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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The Son was only limited before His ascension.


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What would you say if I said the Son's foreknowledge was limited from (Gen. 1:3) to the exact moment you state, and now the Holy Spirit is the Relational presence of God within Creation?
 

intojoy

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What would you say if I said the Son's foreknowledge was limited from (Gen. 1:3) to the exact moment you state, and now the Holy Spirit is the Relational presence of God within Creation?

Correction: Jesus was only limited while on earth until the ascension


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Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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I would say you are full of nonsense, and running full bore to jumping off a heretical cliff!

I want you out of here... per Knights instructions. You are not Pro-Open Theism. This is the Open Theology Club...

I specified so in my OP. Thank you.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Correction: Jesus was only limited while on earth until the ascension


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Show me in Creation where God said "It is finished" ... I imagine you will find that He created, found a stopping point that He was "done with His work" and rested.

"It is finished" has significant meaning on many levels. Consider it. Look into it. I am leading up to something.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Allow me to begin to clarify...

I am suggesting that God is utterly limitless, but ensured free Will would reign within creation, out of Love and sincerity. God knew that creation was different than Himself, the Creator and separated His omniscience from Creation... through the Son, who the Bible clearly says, "All things were made by, through and for".

I further state that Hebrews 4 links Jesus Death, Burial and Ressurection to Creation ... via the true meaning of Sabbath rest. "It is finished" is a Creation statement, statement of a debt paid in full and the words from the "Memra" that show our Debt of "Sin" is Paid in full.

I will leave this scripture for today to show a fraction of what I am conveying...

(Luke 14:28) Note: A tower is only half way up. Man can only build a religion or Tower of Babel (Gen. 11:3f, 4f) that never reaches God.

However, Jesus is our stairway that connects "Heaven and Earth". (Gen. 28:12)

He is our "Tree of Life".

God Created us and as scripture says... (Eph. 1:4)
 
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Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Allow me to begin to clarify...

I am suggesting that God is utterly limitless, but ensured free Will would reign within creation, out of Love and sincerity. God knew that creation was different than Himself, the Creator and separated His omniscience from Creation... through the Son, who the Bible clearly says, "All things were made by, through and for".

I further state that Hebrews 4 links Jesus Death, Burial and Ressurection to Creation ... via the true meaning of Sabbath rest. "It is finished" is a Creation statement, statement of a debt paid in full and the words from the "Memra" that show our Debt of "Sin" is Paid in full.

I will leave this scripture for today to show a fraction of what I am conveying...

(Luke 14:28) Note: A tower is only half way up. Man can only build a religion or Tower of Babel (Gen. 11:3f, 4f) that never reaches God.

However, Jesus is our stairway that connects "Heaven and Earth". (Gen. 28:12)

He is our "Tree of Life".

God Created us and as scripture says... (Eph. 1:4)

I had to make a correction. I got the 1 of 3 o's wrong yesterday. I had let spellcheck place omnipotence... which refers to Power. I had meant to place omniscience, which refers to "all knowing".

This is a touchy subject! God is genuinely omniscient. While Jesus was amongst us in flesh, He had a form of omniscience (John 2:25), yet... even pre-ascension... Jesus said this... (Acts 1:6f) ... note that this is slightly different than (Matthew 24:36). In other words, Jesus has ascended into the "Fathers" "Hands" already, in Spirit and Something has changed from Matthew to Acts. Point blank... Jesus doesn't speak in Plurality... He doesn't use the verbiage that He doesn't know the answer to the disciples questions. He makes it clear that He won't let them know the answer because it is only for God to know.

Another point to bring in now... Testing vs. Tempting. This very theological information is crucial to get right! One tests and one tempts! Also... There is Father Tree theology and there is Son Tree Theology.

Tree of Life (Son, Fruit of the Spirit, Faith, Trust, God's Provision)

(Tree of The Knowledge O.G.A.E.) (Father, Perfection, Law, Omniscience, LORDSHIP, Provider)

Testing... (Dt. 8:2) ... Tempt... (James 1:13)

Why is this imperative?

Because if the "Memra" (Word) had "foreknowledge" in Creation and Time... Placing the tree of the Father Tree within the garden and knowing the outcome would simultaneously be Testing and Tempting. Any theology that fails to distinguish that the Logos (Word/Memra) had purpose and design set forth (John 10:37, 5:19), yet didn't have the foreknowledge of the outcome is defining God as The Tempter.

One model of theology is clearly lacking next to the other! Let's get blunt through analogy. Instead of the Father Tree and the Garden... we'll use the analogy of a Loaded Gun and a Locked room.

-One theology has God locking a 7 year old in a room with many toys... including a loaded gun, knowing full well the Gun will be used to bring self-harm. This would make God "Evil".

-The other theology has God creating everything in sincerity and through co-collaboration of Omniscience and Limited foreknowledge... that Free Will could reign. How did the omniscient Father prepare matters to ensure sincerity? Self Saccrifice that would pay for the presence of the Loaded Gun and simultaneously allow... (Switching back to Spiritual Verbiage) Sincerity and Fertile soil of Love, with utter provision for all possible outcomes.

Two Trees...

But that would mean that the Father was the "Architect" and the Son was the "Builder"! Yup! The Architect Planned Sincerely and Perfectly and the "Builder" Built Perfectly! No Right hand hiding it's intensions from the Left hand... GOD is never a LEFT HAND! God is ONE!

I'm kind of disappointed at the lack of response here! I know there is reading occurring... but scriptural challenge and response is non-existent. Scriptural Affirmation is non-existent, as well. I sincerely desire supportive collaboration here. Pro-Open Theism, constructive criticism or affirmation. Please throw some verses in people!

Back to the last Theological challenge I'm answering questions to, for today......

We, that are TriUnitarians believe God is Model (Une) and Simultaneously Three (Tri)...

Father (Spirit/Mind)
Son (Body/Creator Physical)
Holy Spirit (Soul of God)

Is the Father Spirit? Yes! Does the Spirit have the Soul of God? Yes!
Is the Son Physical? Yes! Does the Son have the Soul of God? Yes!

Is the Soul the very essence of Eternal existence? Yes!

Is the Body the Soul? No! Is the Spirit the Soul? No! Is the Spirit the Body? No?

Is the Father in the Son as the Son is in the Father? Yes!

Now... Is the Father visible or in one place at a moment? No! (Col. 1:15)
Is the Son visible and in one place at a moment? Yes! (Col 1:15)

Is the Holy Spirit (Soul) of God capable of being many places at once? Yes!
Is the Son (Body) of God capable of being many places at once? Yes!

How many Bodies does God have? Deut. 6:4

What is my point? God is truely TRI! I would say I've demonstrated a very purposeful use of such and resoundingly answered YES! But... Is God UNE as well? Find one verse that distinguishes the BODY of the FATHER from the BODY of the Son! Challenge!! Scripture Challenge!

It is considered Heretical to say the Father has the Stigmata. (Is. 9:6)

Is God a co-collaboration of three separate Bodies? Or a Trinity of Body-Spirit-Soul that we were made in the "Image" of?

Are we One? Yes! Are we Tri? Yes! Can our Spirit, Body and Soul be in disagreement? YES!!! (Romans 7:15)

Can God's Spirit, Body and Soul be in disagreement? NO! God is the only PERFECT ONE! (Lk. 22:42)

My last question, which I wish someone would answer... Which is Higher? Creeds and Extra Biblical Doctrines, or Scripture (Within the 66 books) and (1 John 2:27 with John 5:39 and Matthew 23:8), in mind? ... Should Theology CLOSE it's mind and heart? What is a closed mind and heart to God? Why did Jesus say this... (Mt. 15:9 and Mark 7:13)?
 
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Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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As always... Nothing forces a simplifying and clarifying of articulation like a Sibling in Christ that brings a solid, Scriptural challenge...

@Lon... I hope you are okay with this... I'm posting our dialogue here as well. Scripture and Challenge assist me with articulation...

Isaiah 45:5 Act 7:48-51 Colossians 1:16-20

Finally!!! A Scriptural Address! Thank you! You are the first!

5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me,​

and...

48 “However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:
49 ‘Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,
Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?’​

I agree with this fully and in my explanation... I write this.

"Two Trees...

But that would mean that the Father was the "Architect" and the Son was the "Builder"! Yup! The Architect Planned Sincerely and Perfectly and the "Builder" Built Perfectly! No Right hand hiding it's intentions from the Left hand... GOD is never a LEFT HAND! God is ONE!"

To further expound with words I have already written...

"We, that are TriUnitarians believe God is Model (Une) and Simultaneously Three (Tri)...

Father (Spirit/Mind)
Son (Body/Creator Physical)
Holy Spirit (Soul of God)

Is the Father Spirit? Yes! Does the Spirit have the Soul of God? Yes!
Is the Son Physical? Yes! Does the Son have the Soul of God? Yes!

Is the Soul the very essence of Eternal existence? Yes!

Is the Body the Soul? No! Is the Spirit the Soul? No! Is the Spirit the Body? No?

Is the Father in the Son as the Son is in the Father? Yes!

Now... Is the Father visible or in one place at a moment? No! (Col. 1:15)
Is the Son visible and in one place at a moment? Yes! (Col 1:15)

Is the Holy Spirit (Soul) of God capable of being many places at once? Yes!
Is the Son (Body) of God capable of being many places at once? Yes!

How many Bodies does God have? Deut. 6:4

What is my point? God is truely TRI! I would say I've demonstrated a very purposeful use of such and resoundingly answered YES! But... Is God UNE as well? Find one verse that distinguishes the BODY of the FATHER from the BODY of the Son! Challenge!! Scripture Challenge!

It is considered Heretical to say the Father has the Stigmata. (Is. 9:6)

Is God a co-collaboration of three separate Bodies? Or a Trinity of Body-Spirit-Soul that we were made in the "Image" of?

Are we One? Yes! Are we Tri? Yes! Can our Spirit, Body and Soul be in disagreement? YES!!! (Romans 7:15)

Can God's Spirit, Body and Soul be in disagreement? NO! God is the only PERFECT ONE! (Lk. 22:42)"

I address Colossians 1 Later...

Scripturally, if God dwells anywhere, then the universe is His God. Why?

I fully agree with you. In-fact... I say that God is Tri and Une. I distinguish that God Created in such a fashion that allowed for free will to reign, that sincere Love might be cultivated, by Being "Father" (Architect) and "Son" Creator.

I fully believe that the Spirit (Father) is beyond time and The Son (Logos) was placed by God, within time (NOT CREATED ... Placed ... as in... i can't separate my BODY from my Spirit ... But God Can.) Do I have evidence? Genesis 1:1 (In the beginning God... UNE and Tri) ... Gen. 1:2 (The Earth Was Formless and Void) ... Void of what? God had just created it. Void of Life? (Gen. 1:3) "Let there be Light"... This is where I propose that God the Father and God the Son, both of One Soul... (Holy Spirit ... and third fully capable, interactive, sentient presence of the God Head `Ruach HaKadesh') Separated for purpose. If God said light and it isn't the Sun... we can only lean on scripture to show us the very meaning of why light is "added". (John 8:12, 9:5) In other words...

I am suggesting that God is utterly limitless, but ensured free Will would reign within creation, out of Love and sincerity. God knew that creation was different than Himself, the Creator and separated His omniscience from Creation... through the Son, who the Bible clearly says, "All things were made by, through and for".

I further state that Hebrews 4 links Jesus Death, Burial and Resurrection to Creation ... via the true meaning of Sabbath rest. "It is finished" is a Creation statement, statement of a debt paid in full and the words from the "Memra" that show our Debt of "Sin" is Paid in full.

I will leave this scripture for today to show a fraction of what I am conveying...

(Luke 14:28) Note: A tower is only half way up. Man can only build a religion or Tower of Babel (Gen. 11:3f, 4f) that never reaches God.

However, Jesus is our stairway that connects "Heaven and Earth" (I distinguish Infinity and Timelessness as the "Third Heaven" and Earth "As our very Kosmos"). (Gen. 28:12)

He is our "Tree of Life".

God Created us and as scripture says... (Eph. 1:4)[/QUOTE]

Because there would be something or someone beside Himself AND that something would be greater than Him. Mormons believe exactly this, that God is a maker, but product of the universe and that the universe, logically is His God.

And yet... we see Jesus bound to humanity and the reveal is that Jesus is the very "IMAGE" or "BODY" of God in scripture... (1 Tim. 3:16). To further say this...

"OPEN and SINCERE RELATIONSHIP - Love, Relationship; This is another major point. All through Scripture, God explains that His entire purpose of Creation is for "His Son". We also know the SON as the LOGOS and very "WORD, PROMISE, ROCK, PILLAR OF FIRE BY NIGHT, CLOUD BY DAY... Etc". We are assured in scripture that God has had a Father, Son relationship that is ETERNAL. When Jesus describes the coming of the Comforter... We have other verses that distinguish the "Comforter" as (Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19 and so on), but a really mysterious set of verses are (John 10:30 and John 14:23). This suggests that the Holy Spirit is the very unity (Soul of God ... and source of absolute Unity! ... keep in mind... the razor we walk on... God is Une, but to deny the eternal Relationship of the Father and Son is a supreme revision of biblical revelation in scripture.) of Jesus the Son with His Father, within us! Within our HEARTS! If this isn't the most intimate relationship in my life, I don't know what else could be. My Point? God demonstrates His desire for sincere Relationship with us in EVERY Word of Scripture. Of-coarse, the biggest proof verse is (John 5:39f) and a the very lengths that Jesus went to so He could dwell in our Hearts! (Heb. 2:14)"

Isaiah 45:5 Yet God clearly states: "There is no other." and further Isaiah 42:8 "I will not share."

In Colossians 1 we learn everything is sustained (contained therefore) in the Creation-power of Christ.
Significance? Nothing exists that exists without Him, as Colossians 1 clearly and implicitly states. John 15:5 states as well, "without Me, you can do not one thing."

Again... I am not disagreeing with you one bit. In fact... I am now expounding on the Tri... As I said here... "OPEN WITHIN TIME - If one ponders that God limited His foreknowledge through His Son, all of those pesky doctrines that struggle to explain how God isn't a tyrant, but created a "Free" system that allowed Evil to manifest itself within said system, fall away. It becomes simple. The Son has always been the limited in foreknowledge presence of God within Time. This concept genuinely exonerates ONE that needed no exoneration in the first place. This also solidifies that the Theophanies in scripture are no Less than the LOGOS, Eternal SON that is truly Blameless!"

Note... it says... By, For and Through... and I indeed testify that He is utterly UNE, yet TRI.

Omnipresence is the key to understanding what I am suggesting and it doesn't disagree with any scripture.

"If" God could write a new song, it would literally have to be 1) notes He'd never created, 2) words that there was no potential of being able to be put together And importantly 3) completely outside Himself and from another God. Why? Because ALL things proceed from within the Lord God.

I couldn't agree more... But... I would say that because we are Body, Spirit and Soul... and God is Body, Spirit and Soul ... we can see that God's "Body, Spirit and Soul is much more capable than our ... Body, Spirit and Soul. God could write that song three different ways with his Body, Spirit and Soul that come out in PERFECT HARMONY.

"If" all things do not proceed from God, then the Open Theist is correct BUT God would also be part of creation.
Because all things proceed (else Colossians 1 is untrue) from Him, He necessarily is all-knowing of all that proceeds from Him and because He sustains all things, all actions, all movement, everything.

Spirit (Father) (Mind and unbound, Infinite Presence of God... Timeless!!!... No Boundaries ... Invisible)

Body (Son) (The very expression and presence of God... the very revelation of God... Can be uniquily bound to time for the purpose of Creation and Perfection... while the Father remains beyond time yet they are utterly able to communicate at need via their co-joined (SOUL... Holy Spirit... "LET US", "We" (Gen. 1:26, 3:22) ... we also see a unified dialogue at key points in time throughout scripture... The flood is another example... (Gen. 6:3) ... Note... The Father Proceeds from the Son, and the Holy Spirit Proceeds from the Son... (Gen. 2:7) ... as in... It was the Son (Logos) that breathed into the nostrils of Man... There is a noted difference in matters, once Jesus commits His Spirit back to the Father... upon saying "It is finished". This is where I am zeroing in...

"This is a touchy subject! God is genuinely omniscient. While Jesus was among us in flesh, He had a form of omniscience (John 2:25), yet... even pre-ascension... Jesus said this... (Acts 1:6f) ... note that this is slightly different than (Matthew 24:36). In other words, Jesus has ascended into the "Fathers" "Hands" already, in Spirit and Something has changed from Matthew to Acts. Point blank... Jesus doesn't speak in Plurality... He doesn't use the verbiage that He doesn't know the answer to the disciples questions. He makes it clear that He won't let them know the answer because it is only for God to know."

I do not believe Open Theism can sustain logically. -Lon

Not so fast Lon... I have a strong counter argument to why God Created as "Architect" (Father) and "Creator" (Son), While willingly limiting/choosing to be limited in foreknowledge (through the Son, though the Father retains ALL foreknowledge/Omniscience)... This would seem preposterous... but we have scriptural evidence that God can do this through His Son (Body)... Php. 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

It is this...

"Another point to bring in now... Testing vs. Tempting. This very theological information is crucial to get right! One tests and one tempts! Also... There is Father Tree theology and there is Son Tree Theology.

Tree of Life (Son, Fruit of the Spirit, Faith, Trust, God's Provision)

(Tree of The Knowledge O.G.A.E.) (Father, Perfection, Law, Omniscience, LORDSHIP, Provider)

Testing... (Dt. 8:2) ... Tempt... (James 1:13)

Why is this imperative?

Because if the "Memra" (Word) had "foreknowledge" in Creation and Time... Placing the tree of the Father Tree within the garden and knowing the outcome would simultaneously be Testing and Tempting. Any theology that fails to distinguish that the Logos (Word/Memra) had purpose and design set forth (John 10:37, 5:19), yet didn't have the foreknowledge of the outcome is defining God as The Tempter.

One model of theology is clearly lacking next to the other! Let's get blunt through analogy. Instead of the Father Tree and the Garden... we'll use the analogy of a Loaded Gun and a Locked room.

-One theology has God locking a 7 year old in a room with many toys... including a loaded gun, knowing full well the Gun will be used to bring self-harm. This would make God "Evil".

-The other theology has God creating everything in sincerity and through co-collaboration of Omniscience and Limited foreknowledge... that Free Will could reign. How did the omniscient Father prepare matters to ensure sincerity? Self Saccrifice that would pay for the presence of the Loaded Gun and simultaneously allow... (Switching back to Spiritual Verbiage) Sincerity and Fertile soil of Love, with utter provision for all possible outcomes.

Two Trees...

But that would mean that the Father was the "Architect" and the Son was the "Builder"! Yup! The Architect Planned Sincerely and Perfectly and the "Builder" Built Perfectly! No Right hand hiding it's intentions from the Left hand... GOD is never a LEFT HAND! God is ONE!"

And so... I leave you with these questions...

Is God now, not Tri? Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

When did the Son, who we both Agree... per. (Col. 1:15, 16f, 18) is the Physical Creator ... "Finish Creation"?
Spoiler
My proposed Answer: (John 19:30 and Hebrews 4 tied to Gen. 2:2 and (Luke 14:28f, 30) ... In other words... The Father designed it and willed it... and the Son Created it and maintained it...

I suggest that God has allowed the form of Himself that is directly interactive with Mankind to be limited in foreknowledge to experience genuine relationship and provide free will, without being "responsible" for it's abuse. I further propose that He paid the price for providing Free Will, that Love could be "Genuinely" manifested from our Hearts to Him. After all... (Ephesians 1:4 and 1 Peter 1:20 ... Also ... Romans 8:9)...


Gratitude for being the first person to actually rebut me with scripture, and know that I recognize all human interpretation... (Mine especially) as simply that (Human interpretation).

If you would like to continue this round and round... I would be honored. I Love and appreciate you all the more for scripturally challenging me.

- EE
 
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