ECT Only a D'ist would poo-poo Holford's victory

[Right Divider]

Pastor Idol, ur, I meant Holford...

I still do not know who that is.

 

[musterion]

Beautifully stated :thumb:

Thanks but it probably won't matter. Best case scenario, he'll just gradually fade away like Tet has done. Luke 19:44 is the silver-plated, garlic-infused stake through the dead heart of preterism. It calls Josephus as a witness AGAINST preterism and can NOT be refuted. Tet finally figured that out. IP was always somewhat sharper than Tet so...we'll see.

 

[Danoh]

I still do not know who that is.

He was a Pastor who attempted to silence those Higher Critics of his day who asserted that the Bible is full of holes as supposedly proven by the Lord's prophetic utterances having failed to come to pass.

He attempted to do that through the same walk by sight wisdom of men his own school of thought was/is based in.

He succeeded due to the holes in Preterism said Higher Critics were too stupid to find.

He also succeeded in promoting the walk by sight foolishness of his school that has Interplanner so entrenchment in said same Preterist mess.

Here is a book "about" by Holford.

Where?

Where else? On a Preterist site.

Though the site is an endless treasure trove of all sorts of material worth perusing, for those into books "about."

Both those who end up making them and their writers their idol, as well as for those who can remain objective while visiting this Land of Oz of theirs :chuckle:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1805_holford_proof.html

 

[Interplanner]

Come on Inter, admit it.

It bothers you to no end to be told the obvious - that you have wasted both a large part of your mind and finances on the wisdom of men...that the Bible is simply not..your go to Book "about."

Fess up...

Or are you just an...Interplanner...

Up to no good like that shining one who interplanted himself into that garden so long ago, Mr. Yea hath God said...

So you are on Payne's side?

 

[Interplanner]

You sound upset.

Listen...it's really very simple.

When you refuse to take His statement literally, you do two things. (1) You're saying you don't believe the Bible as written, and (2) you automatically lose ALL authority to tell other people what His Words actually DO mean.

If you don't believe it as written -- and you clearly don't -- no one has any reason to give your opinions the slightest attention.



Also known as reading and believing what the Word actually says, not what some anonymous theologue SAYS it says.

I have no reason to believe your claim that I cannot take His Word about the destruction of Jerusalem literally, just because doing so destroys Josephus as the go-to source for preterism.



False analogy, and reeks of desperate reaching. Luke 19:44 says what it says, not what you say it says.



Except for the stone towers that Josephus said remained standing, in contradiction of Luke 19:44.



Christ SAID not one stone would be left standing atop another in all of Jerusalem. You don't believe Him? Fine. What He SAID still did not happen in 70.

Reminders:

1. If you won't believe what Christ SAID, you have no authority to tell anyone else what Christ actually meant.

2. You cannot cite Josephus as your go-to historical source while refusing to acknowledge the contradiction he himself (unwittingly) documented. Christ said NOTHING would remain intact. Josephus said things remained intact.

I'm sorry that this nukes your whole interpretive outlook, but it's simply the result of your low view of the Bible, which Tetelestai shared.

You don't actually believe it. You believe preterism.

I'm not sure what the "so" in doing so refers to: my claim, or your believing it?

So you, too, are on the side of Payne in Payne vs Holford. What a waste. What an awful place to be in a strategic moment in church history.

The decimation of Jerusalem does not hinge on 2 towers; that is ridiculous. 1.5M dead. No way to continue to worship. Signs and wonders against Judaism which Josephus reported disinterestedly or disenchantedly (since he was a priest). You simply don't know what you are talking about.

What is even more bizarre is your belief that since that is not what Lk 19 is about, there is to be a "2nd round" or actually 3rd of all this. Honkydoodle on that one. If you can't grasp the finality of the SON OF GOD coming and saying that he was the prophet who would declare who was and was not disinherited and impose the penalty and damage on the city, you are the worst of readers. I suppose Heb 1 is all crumbling with exceptions now, because the word of the SON OF GOD is not final after all? It is not the final warning to the final generation after all? Well, then Heb 1 and heck the whole book are just stuck in negotiations with know it all MADs.

There is nothing misplaced about the literalism of Pharisees that you practice. It is even a point blank question by the crowd in Jn 12:34: They think Messiah is to reign forever; Messiah says no, I'm the light and you need to follow the light.

Beyond all this, there is no reason to redo another episode in the land. No theological reason whatsoever. This is the fulness of times in which God is trying to reach all nations about the Jerusalem that is above.

 

[Interplanner]

You sound upset.

Listen...it's really very simple.

When you refuse to take His statement literally, you do two things. (1) You're saying you don't believe the Bible as written, and (2) you automatically lose ALL authority to tell other people what His Words actually DO mean.

If you don't believe it as written -- and you clearly don't -- no one has any reason to give your opinions the slightest attention.



Also known as reading and believing what the Word actually says, not what some anonymous theologue SAYS it says.

I have no reason to believe your claim that I cannot take His Word about the destruction of Jerusalem literally, just because doing so destroys Josephus as the go-to source for preterism.



False analogy, and reeks of desperate reaching. Luke 19:44 says what it says, not what you say it says.



Except for the stone towers that Josephus said remained standing, in contradiction of Luke 19:44.



Christ SAID not one stone would be left standing atop another in all of Jerusalem. You don't believe Him? Fine. What He SAID still did not happen in 70.

Reminders:

1. If you won't believe what Christ SAID, you have no authority to tell anyone else what Christ actually meant.

2. You cannot cite Josephus as your go-to historical source while refusing to acknowledge the contradiction he himself (unwittingly) documented. Christ said NOTHING would remain intact. Josephus said things remained intact.

I'm sorry that this nukes your whole interpretive outlook, but it's simply the result of your low view of the Bible, which Tetelestai shared.

You don't actually believe it. You believe preterism.

Very quaint about "reminders" Mr. sunday school teacher!

 

[musterion]

I'm not sure what the "so" in doing so refers to: my claim, or your believing it?

So you, too, are on the side of Payne in Payne vs Holford. What a waste. What an awful place to be in a strategic moment in church history.

The decimation of Jerusalem does not hinge on 2 towers; that is ridiculous. 1.5M dead. No way to continue to worship. Signs and wonders against Judaism which Josephus reported disinterestedly or disenchantedly (since he was a priest). You simply don't know what you are talking about.

What is even more bizarre is your belief that since that is not what Lk 19 is about, there is to be a "2nd round" or actually 3rd of all this. Honkydoodle on that one. If you can't grasp the finality of the SON OF GOD coming and saying that he was the prophet who would declare who was and was not disinherited and impose the penalty and damage on the city, you are the worst of readers. I suppose Heb 1 is all crumbling with exceptions now, because the word of the SON OF GOD is not final after all? It is not the final warning to the final generation after all? Well, then Heb 1 and heck the whole book are just stuck in negotiations with know it all MADs.

There is nothing misplaced about the literalism of Pharisees that you practice. It is even a point blank question by the crowd in Jn 12:34: They think Messiah is to reign forever; Messiah says no, I'm the light and you need to follow the light.

Beyond all this, there is no reason to redo another episode in the land. No theological reason whatsoever. This is the fulness of times in which God is trying to reach all nations about the Jerusalem that is above.

Never read Payne nor Holford. Familiar (I think) with who Payne was but never heard of the other guy until you. Don't need to know. Don't care about either.

Once more:

Luke 19:44

vs

a few stone towers left standing, according to Josephus

Preterism is false.

 

[Interplanner]

Point is that YOU force the Bible to say something that IT DOES NOT because of your "outside truth".

Also, I've NEVER said that there is NOT truth outside of the Bible.


I have no idea what pastor that you are talking about.

P.S. You don't even know that "the heaven declare" means if you think that you can interpret the Bible with it.

There are threads on Holford here where the material has been reprinted. The MADs try desparately to bury it, censor it. Have you heard of searching on the internet, that kind of thing?

The point about the heavens declare, or any other source, is that ultimately all truth lines up with and supports what God says is true. Why you or anyone would suddenly dismiss the work and victory of Holford is inexplicable. You are all on Payne's side.

 

[musterion]

I will meet you halfway, though.

A destruction of Jerusalem happened in 70. No one argues that. We agree on it 100%.

THE destruction foretold by Christ did not happen in 70. Josephus -- YOUR go-to guy on this whole scheme -- proves it.

 

[Interplanner]

He was a Pastor who attempted to silence those Higher Critics of his day who asserted that the Bible is full of holes as supposedly proven by the Lord's prophetic utterances having failed to come to pass.

He attempted to do that through the same walk by sight wisdom of men his own school of thought was/is based in.

He succeeded due to the holes in Preterism said Higher Critics were too stupid to find.

He also succeeded in promoting the walk by sight foolishness of his school that has Interplanner so entrenchment in said same Preterist mess.

Here is a book "about" by Holford.

Where?

Where else? On a Preterist site.

Though the site is an endless treasure trove of all sorts of material worth perusing, for those into books "about."

Both those who end up making them and their writers their idol, as well as for those who can remain objective while visiting this Land of Oz of theirs :chuckle:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1805_holford_proof.html

I've read it twice and Danoh is completely unreliable on what happened there. less credibility every day. It had improved for a while.

suggestion: don't look for the preterism or futurism of it. Just find out what Payne tried to do and what Holford succeeded in doing.

 

[Interplanner]

Never read Payne nor Holford. Familiar (I think) with who Payne was but never heard of the other guy until you. Don't need to know. Don't care about either.

Once more:

Luke 19:44

vs

a few stone towers left standing, according to Josephus

Preterism is false.

Sorry but it is too big of an issue. It does not come down to one verse, just like the Deluge of Genesis is not bunked by us not finding an ark. You have no idea.

 

[Right Divider]

There are threads on Holford here where the material has been reprinted. The MADs try desparately to bury it, censor it. Have you heard of searching on the internet, that kind of thing?

Yes, I was searching the internet while you were still in diapers.

I searched for "Holford" and found a TON of stuff. You should be a little more willing to give a LITTLE bit more information instead of being a condescending little child. But I know that you can't help it.

The point about the heavens declare, or any other source, is that ultimately all truth lines up with and supports what God says is true. Why you or anyone would suddenly dismiss the work and victory of Holford is inexplicable. You are all on Payne's side.

Another of the multitude of lies that you spit out like the snake that you are.

 

[Interplanner]

Yes, I was searching the internet while you were still in diapers.

I searched for "Holford" and found a TON of stuff. You should be a little more willing to give a LITTLE bit more information instead of being a condescending little child. But I know that you can't help it.


Another of the multitude of lies that you spit out like the snake that you are.

Didn't we agree that we don't call people things, Mr. Christian on the Internet with Lots of Bible Knowledge? You may call posts mistaken, you may not call me names.

You don't even know Holford or Payne, so how do you know what is "lying" about them?

 

[musterion]

Sorry but it is too big of an issue.

Only because of your emotional and reputational investment in preterism being true.

It does not come down to one verse, just like the Deluge of Genesis is not bunked by us not finding an ark. You have no idea.

It comes down to exactly that.

Luke 19:44: not one stone upon another

Josephus: many stones left upon other stones

It is that simple.

 

[Interplanner]

Luke 19:44: not one stone upon another

Josephus: stones upon other stones

It is that simple.

Nope, there is all the theology of Hebrews against you, several parables, all the sayings of Jesus that would then have to go through with tweezers and lift out one phrase or not another, and Daniel 9. You have the weirdest view of the Bible on these things, that it comes down to one line like that when there's...10 chapters of material. The expression simply means that the place is going to be desolated, which was already declared WITHOUT ANY DETAILS before the calamity happened in Mt 23.

 

[musterion]

Nope, there is all the theology of Hebrews against you, several parables, all the sayings of Jesus that would then have to go through with tweezers and lift out one phrase or not another, and Daniel 9. You have the weirdest view of the Bible on these things, that it comes down to one line like that when there's...10 chapters of material. The expression simply means that the place is going to be desolated, which was already declared WITHOUT ANY DETAILS before the calamity happened in Mt 23.

If Christ meant to say what you say He meant, He'd have said what you say He meant.

Josephus proves Luke 19:44 did not come to pass in 70. You're so invested in preterism that you're willing to twist and deny the very Word of Christ to avoid the obvious conclusion.

 

[Interplanner]

Josephus proves Luke 19:44 did not come to pass in 70. You're so invested in preterism that you're willing to twist and deny the very Word of Christ to avoid the obvious conclusion.

but you are doing the twisting by saying that even if 99.9% of it happened, its' that 0.1% item that sells the farm. Very foolish, and twisted.

Try Lk 23, which locks the whole thing into the time frame. The babies being nursed at the time of the crucifixion, will live as adults through the horror OF THE EVENT HE HAS BEEN REFERRING TO ALL THROUGH THE BOOK!!!

 

[musterion]

From an interlinear, Christ speaks of what would come to pass for Jerusalem.

"...and

will-level-to-the-ground [edaphiousin]

you

and

the

children

of-you

within

you

and

not

will-leave

a-stone

upon

a-stone

within

you..."

Check this before you reply:

http://biblehub.com/greek/edaphiousin_1474.htm

Towers left standing = edaphiousin did not happen in 70.

No two ways to read that unless you have an agenda that keeps you from wanting to believe it. Can't say I feel sorry for you. You're doing this to yourself.

 

[Right Divider]

Didn't we agree that we don't call people things, Mr. Christian on the Internet with Lots of Bible Knowledge? You may call posts mistaken, you may not call me names.

I will call you whatever is appropriate.

You don't even know Holford or Payne, so how do you know what is "lying" about them?

Your comprehension skill are just about zero.

The point about the heavens declare, or any other source, is that ultimately all truth lines up with and supports what God says is true. Why you or anyone would suddenly dismiss the work and victory of Holford is inexplicable. You are all on Payne's side.

That is the LIE, you liar.

 

[musterion]

Guilt by association is all he's got now. Notice his way of addressing Luke 19:44 is to deny it. Anyone who can do that with Scripture will do anything.