Onlly Y-H-W-H is God, besides Him there is no god!

Elia

Well-known member
The proof is in front of you, in your Tanakh.

Bs"d

So, as usual, beameup cannot bring any proof to support his ramblings.

He just says "it is in your Tanakh".

That is of course a non-answer, but by now, who would have expected any different from him??

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d
So, as usual, beameup cannot bring any proof to support his ramblings.
He just says "it is in your Tanakh".
That is of course a non-answer, but by now, who would have expected any different from him??

We certainly wouldn't expect any thing different from you. You still cannot read and understand your own Scriptures, which I quote to you.
Of course, YHWH has told us that you would be blind and deaf when it comes to His Word. I seriously doubt you are sharp enough to attend a yeshiva.

For the LORD has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep,
He has shut your eyes, the prophets
[no prophets for 2,000 years]
And He has covered your heads, the seers [no seers for 2,000 years]
Yep, deaf, dumb & blind. Just keep repeating your mantra Deuteronomy 6:4... OMMMMMMMMMMMM
 

Elia

Well-known member
For the LORD has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep,
He has shut your eyes, the prophets
[no prophets for 2,000 years]
And He has covered your heads, the seers [no seers for 2,000 years]
Yep, deaf, dumb & blind.

Bs"d

You cannot count to two, you think that a "God the Father" and a "god the son" is only one God, and then you tell me that I'm blind?? :confused:

See here who is blinded: "See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples" Isaiah 60:2

So we see, it are the nations who are in darkness.

But there is hope: "On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations" Isaiah 25:7

So at one point you'll be able to count to two. Have patience.

Just keep repeating your mantra Deuteronomy 6:4... OMMMMMMMMMMMM

It doesn't say "OMMMMMMMMMMMM" in Deut 6:4.

Here is what it says there:


שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד


Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is
ONE.​

And yes, we keep on repeating that. Why? Because God says so:

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

You cannot count to two, you think that a "God the Father" and a "god the son" is only one God, and then you tell me that I'm blind?? :confused:

See here who is blinded: "See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples" Isaiah 60:2

Yes, Isaiah 60.
Perhaps we can take a peek at verse 9:
Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Yes, Isaiah 60.
Perhaps we can take a peek at verse 9:
Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.

Bs"d

You are mixed up again. Who is the Holy One of Israel?

No, it is not JC:

Isaiah 47:4
"Our Redeemer, Y-H-W-H of hosts is His name, The Holy One of Israel."

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 45:11 "For Y-H-W-H, the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker says this, “Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons,"

Isaiah 48:17 "Thus says Y-H-W-H, your Redeemer,The Holy One of Israel: “I am Y-H-W-H your God:
 

Elia

Well-known member
We certainly wouldn't expect any thing different from you. You still cannot read and understand your own Scriptures, which I quote to you.
Of course, YHWH has told us that you would be blind and deaf when it comes to His Word. I seriously doubt you are sharp enough to attend a yeshiva.

For the LORD has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep,
He has shut your eyes, the prophets
[no prophets for 2,000 years]
And He has covered your heads, the seers [no seers for 2,000 years]
Yep, deaf, dumb & blind. Just keep repeating your mantra Deuteronomy 6:4... OMMMMMMMMMMMM

Bs"d

It doesn't say "OMMMMMMMMMM" in Deut 6:4.

I understand that you don't want to say what is written there, because it rips your idolatrous religion apart. It shatters the trinity.

But here is what it says in Deut 6:4:



שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד


Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is
ONE.​

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

The Jews until this day fulfill this commandment. Every morning they put upon their arm and upon their forehead their phylacteries, (prayer belts) that consist of black straps with black leather cubes, that contain parchment upon which is written this Biblical text that says that God is one. Upon the doorposts of the houses of the religious Jews there are small boxes or containers that also contain parchment upon which is written that God is one. During the morning and evening prayers the above text is recited which says that God is one.

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no Christ, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPPER.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Elohim (plural) is used with singular forms in Genesis 1:1

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Bs"d


A typical example of the many word games Trinitarians and others use as they endeavor to promote their false god.​


Adapted from The Journal of Hebraic Renewal, which reprinted it from Focus on the Kingdom magazine.​


To support the commonly held teaching that God is a plural entity consisting of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit [1], Messianics that follow the primary Traditional Christian doctrines from which they came, as well as Traditional Christians, themselves, will appeal to two Hebrew words: Elohim (eloheem) and echad (echad, "ch" as in the Scottish "loch"). They assert that the Hebrew word, Elohim, indicates that God is a plural entity because it is the plural form of the word for God and is the title most often used for the God of Israel. Echad - used in the well-known "shema" of Deuteronomy 6:4 instructing Israel that their God is "one" - is asserted by them to show the plurality of God because, they say echad in the Hebrew actually indicates a compound, rather than an absolute, unity; that is, rather than a "simple" one, they say echad indicates a unity of more than one.


Each claim will now be examined.


Elohim​


Elohim is the plural form of Eloah and appears closely related to El, which usually means "god", "God", or "mighty one". But IF we were right to translate Elohim as a plural word, the Bible would teach us that in the beginning, "Gods" created the heavens and the earth (Gen. 1:1). The Bible would then support the idea that more than one God created the universe, spoke to Abraham, delivered Israel from bondage and continued dealing with them, etc., since Elohim is used throughout the Tanakh ("Old" Testament) as Israel's God(s). But virtually no Christian - Messianic or otherwise - would profess that there is more than one God.


So, how do we resolve this dilemma? And why do all the translations translate Elohim simply as "God" and not "Gods" when it refers to the true God?


In Biblical Hebrew, a noun that is plural in form is not necessarily plural in meaning - a fact most Messianic leaders realize, yet seem to ignore. For instance, the Hebrew words chayim (chayeem, "life") [2] and panim (paneem, "face", "presence", "countenance") [3] are plural in form, but almost always singular in meaning. Another word, adon, "lord", "master", [4] is often plural in form. In its plural form it is sometimes used of a single person - Abraham (Gen. 24:9-10), Joseph (Gen. 42:30,33), the king of Egypt (Gen. 40:1) and an anonymous "fierce king" under whose rule the Egyptians were prophesied to come (Isa. 19:4, NRSV). There are instances of other plural Hebrew words employed in the Hebrew Bible with singular meaning.


Equally striking is the fact that the same term, elohim, is used of the individual false gods of Israel's surrounding nations. Elohim is used of Dagon, the god of the Philistines (1 Sam. 5:7); of Chemosh, the god of Ammon and Moab (Jud. 11:24; 1 Kings 11:33); of Ashtarte (or Ashtoreth), the god(dess) of the Sidonians (1 Kings 11:33); of Milcom, another god of the Ammorites (1 Kings 11:33). In Smith's Bible Dictionary (NISBE) no plurality in any one of these gods is even hinted at. Additionally, in Ezra's prayer in Nehemiah 9:18, elohim is used to refer to the single golden calf made by Israel in the wilderness.


Elohim is also used of single human figures. Moses in both Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 and the Messianic king in Psalms 45:6 (verse 7 in the Hebrew Bible) are each referred to as elohim [5].


What all this indicates is that in Biblical Hebrew, plural nouns in general and Elohim in particular do not always have plural meanings. In the case of the word Elohim, in fact, it would appear as though we should almost always understand it as singular in meaning unless the context indicates that "gods" are referred to.


Hebrew scholars are entirely familiar with these facts (as are Christianized Messianic leaders). The expressions "plural of majesty" or "plural of rank" or "intensive plural" are sometimes used to describe this phenomenon of language (not just Hebrew) where the form of a word can be plural but its meaning is singular. The idea is that the plural stresses or exalts the importance of the person referred to. The following is a quotation regarding Elohim from the NISBE, in their article on "God, Names of":


The use of the plural form with singular meaning is not unique to Israel. Similar forms occur in pre-Israelite Babylonian and Canaanite texts in which a worshiper wishes to exalt a particular god above others. This form has been called the plural of majesty or the intensive plural because it implies that all the fullness of deity is concentrated in the one god. Elohim's being the most common word for God in the Tanakh thus conveys this idea. (Vol. 2, p. 505).

Smith's Bible Dictionary has this to say on the same subject in their article entitled "God":


The plural form of Elohim has given rise to much discussion. The fanciful idea that it referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God (p. 220).

But by no means is YHWH ever referred to by plural forms. In fact, whenever the people of God speak of Him in the Hebrew Bible using a pronoun, they ALWAYS employ the singular form. Whether it is the third person (He, Him, His) or the second person (You, Your, Thou, Thy) this is the case. The people of God understood their God to be a single Individual. [6]


Nor is He only referred to in the plural when "God" is the translated word. Two forms referred to above, El and Eloah used in the Tanakh to refer to the true God, are both singular in form. [7] When an Aramaic word for God, Elah, is used, it too appears to be always in its singular form when referring to the true God. [8]


The form of the verb used in Hebrew when Elohim the true God is the subject is also instructive. It is virtually always singular in form throughout the Tanakh. In Genesis 1, for example - where the reader is first introduced to Elohim the Creator - the Hebrew verb form is always in the third masculine singular whenever [9] we read that "Elohim created" or "Elohim said" or "Elohim made", etc. [10]


Finally, the Septuagint (known as "LXX"), the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible (probably translated in the third and second century B.C.E.) ALWAYS translated the Hebrew word for God in the singular (Gr. theos). The LXX version of the Old Testament is often cited in the New Testament instead of the Hebrew. [11]


Therefore - returning to the original argument (which usually includes the "Let us..." statement in Gen. 1:26) - if God must be regarded as a plural entity because He is referred to in a plural form, why then must He not be regarded as a singular entity since He is referred to in singular forms? Are not all these statements Holy Scripture? We could be left with a contradiction were it not for the many examples of plural forms with singular meanings in Hebrew, including the concept of "plural of majesty". The plural of majesty clarifies the usage of the plural form for the true God in the Tanakh. He is described by thousands and thousands of singular verbs and pronouns. Language has no more definite way of telling us that God is ONE Person, the Father of Yeshua - but definitely NOT Yeshua!


As a final proof, note the Messianic 22nd Psalm. I will quote from only a portion of this Psalm which, when read using common sense, CLEARLY shows that Yeshua (the prophetic focus of this Psalm) refers to God (Elohim and El) as HIS God (Elohim). I will include in parenthesis the Hebrew word translated as "God."

Psalm 22:1,2,101 My God (El), my God (El), why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God (Elohim), I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. ... 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God (El) from my mother's belly.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
This single quote from Psalms - and there are other Messianic verses which present the same proof - PROVES that Yeshua is NOT God (Elohim), since he (Yeshua) refers to the ONE, True God as HIS Elohim! Verse 10 also proves how Yeshua worshipped the same God we should worship from his birth! Thus, since Yeshua very clearly referred to the God HE WORSHIPPED as Elohim, the term Elohim cannot possibly refer to Yeshua in the sense of making him God!
 

JudgeRightly

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But IF we were right to translate Elohim as a plural word, the Bible would teach us that in the beginning, "Gods" created the heavens and the earth (Gen. 1:1). The Bible would then support the idea that more than one God created the universe, spoke to Abraham, delivered Israel from bondage and continued dealing with them, etc., since Elohim is used throughout the Tanakh ("Old" Testament) as Israel's God(s). But virtually no Christian - Messianic or otherwise - would profess that there is more than one God.

Trinitarians are monotheists.

Elohim (plural) created (singular verb).

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (the three are one Elohim) created.

So, how do we resolve this dilemma? And why do all the translations translate Elohim simply as "God" and not "Gods" when it refers to the true God?

Because Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One God (Deuteronomy 6:4)

In Biblical Hebrew, a noun that is plural in form is not necessarily plural in meaning - a fact most Messianic leaders realize, yet seem to ignore. For instance, the Hebrew words chayim (chayeem, "life") [2] and panim (paneem, "face", "presence", "countenance") [3] are plural in form, but almost always singular in meaning. Another word, adon, "lord", "master", [4] is often plural in form. In its plural form it is sometimes used of a single person - Abraham (Gen. 24:9-10), Joseph (Gen. 42:30,33), the king of Egypt (Gen. 40:1) and an anonymous "fierce king" under whose rule the Egyptians were prophesied to come (Isa. 19:4, NRSV). There are instances of other plural Hebrew words employed in the Hebrew Bible with singular meaning.


Equally striking is the fact that the same term, elohim, is used of the individual false gods of Israel's surrounding nations. Elohim is used of Dagon, the god of the Philistines (1 Sam. 5:7); of Chemosh, the god of Ammon and Moab (Jud. 11:24; 1 Kings 11:33); of Ashtarte (or Ashtoreth), the god(dess) of the Sidonians (1 Kings 11:33); of Milcom, another god of the Ammorites (1 Kings 11:33). In Smith's Bible Dictionary (NISBE) no plurality in any one of these gods is even hinted at. Additionally, in Ezra's prayer in Nehemiah 9:18, elohim is used to refer to the single golden calf made by Israel in the wilderness.


Elohim is also used of single human figures. Moses in both Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 and the Messianic king in Psalms 45:6 (verse 7 in the Hebrew Bible) are each referred to as elohim [5].


What all this indicates is that in Biblical Hebrew, plural nouns in general and Elohim in particular do not always have plural meanings. In the case of the word Elohim, in fact, it would appear as though we should almost always understand it as singular in meaning unless the context indicates that "gods" are referred to.


Hebrew scholars are entirely familiar with these facts (as are Christianized Messianic leaders). The expressions "plural of majesty" or "plural of rank" or "intensive plural" are sometimes used to describe this phenomenon of language (not just Hebrew) where the form of a word can be plural but its meaning is singular. The idea is that the plural stresses or exalts the importance of the person referred to. The following is a quotation regarding Elohim from the NISBE, in their article on "God, Names of":




Smith's Bible Dictionary has this to say on the same subject in their article entitled "God":




But by no means is YHWH ever referred to by plural forms. In fact, whenever the people of God speak of Him in the Hebrew Bible using a pronoun, they ALWAYS employ the singular form. Whether it is the third person (He, Him, His) or the second person (You, Your, Thou, Thy) this is the case. The people of God understood their God to be a single Individual. [6]


Nor is He only referred to in the plural when "God" is the translated word. Two forms referred to above, El and Eloah used in the Tanakh to refer to the true God, are both singular in form. [7] When an Aramaic word for God, Elah, is used, it too appears to be always in its singular form when referring to the true God. [8]


The form of the verb used in Hebrew when Elohim the true God is the subject is also instructive. It is virtually always singular in form throughout the Tanakh. In Genesis 1, for example - where the reader is first introduced to Elohim the Creator - the Hebrew verb form is always in the third masculine singular whenever [9] we read that "Elohim created" or "Elohim said" or "Elohim made", etc. [10]


Finally, the Septuagint (known as "LXX"), the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible (probably translated in the third and second century B.C.E.) ALWAYS translated the Hebrew word for God in the singular (Gr. theos). The LXX version of the Old Testament is often cited in the New Testament instead of the Hebrew. [11]


Therefore - returning to the original argument (which usually includes the "Let us..." statement in Gen. 1:26) - if God must be regarded as a plural entity because He is referred to in a plural form, why then must He not be regarded as a singular entity since He is referred to in singular forms? Are not all these statements Holy Scripture? We could be left with a contradiction were it not for the many examples of plural forms with singular meanings in Hebrew, including the concept of "plural of majesty". The plural of majesty clarifies the usage of the plural form for the true God in the Tanakh. He is described by thousands and thousands of singular verbs and pronouns. Language has no more definite way of telling us that God is ONE Person, the Father of Yeshua - but definitely NOT Yeshua!


As a final proof, note the Messianic 22nd Psalm. I will quote from only a portion of this Psalm which, when read using common sense, CLEARLY shows that Yeshua (the prophetic focus of this Psalm) refers to God (Elohim and El) as HIS God (Elohim). I will include in parenthesis the Hebrew word translated as "God."

Psalm 22:1,2,101 My God (El), my God (El), why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God (Elohim), I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. ... 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God (El) from my mother's belly.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
This single quote from Psalms - and there are other Messianic verses which present the same proof - PROVES that Yeshua is NOT God (Elohim), since he (Yeshua) refers to the ONE, True God as HIS Elohim! Verse 10 also proves how Yeshua worshipped the same God we should worship from his birth! Thus, since Yeshua very clearly referred to the God HE WORSHIPPED as Elohim, the term Elohim cannot possibly refer to Yeshua in the sense of making him God!

The problem is that Jesus IS ALSO Elohim, and the fact of the matter is that "Elohim," being a plural noun, DOES NOT PRECLUDE HIM from being Elohim.

I encourage you to take a look at https://kgov.com/deity.

It shows how Jesus is God, using the context of the ENTIRE Bible, both the Old and New Testaments.

Everything Jesus said showed that He was God incarnate.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Trinitarians are monotheists.

Elohim (plural) created (singular verb).

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (the three are one Elohim) created.

Bs"d

If you have a "God the Father", and you also have a "god the son", then you have 1 + 1 = 2 gods.

Because 1 + 1 = 2, and not 1.

And no matter how often you say 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, you can't change the laws of nature, and make 3 equal to 1.

And that's why the Jews don't accept your extra god, because they can count to two.

If somebody can count to two, he cannot be a Christian.

And if you keep on saying they are all one God, then you have a God who is his own father, and at the same time his own son.

And his own servant. (Isaiah 53).

It just doesn't make any sense.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Trinitarians are monotheists.

Elohim (plural) created (singular verb).

Bs"d

Like I said above, in Hebrew there are a lot of singular things which can only be expressed with the plural ending "iem". For instance water, "mayim", face, "paniem", heaven "shamayim, and many others.
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (the three are one Elohim) created.



Because Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One God (Deuteronomy 6:4)
Well, as we all know, there is no "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" to be found in Deut 6:4.

And Deut 6:4 doesn't say that there is only one God, we have many other verses for that. What Deut 6:4 says is that Y-H-W-H is our God, and that Y-H-W-H is ONE. And therefore not two, not three, not three in one, but ONE!

That whole trinity concept is nowhere to be found, not even in the NT.

It is an emergency solution to turn 2 gods into one god.
 

JudgeRightly

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If you have a "God the Father", and you also have a "god the son", then you have 1 + 1 = 2 gods.

Because 1 + 1 = 2, and not 1.

And no matter how often you say 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, you can't change the laws of nature, and make 3 equal to 1.

There's your problem.

It's not three individual Gods.

It's ONE God.

1 X 1 X 1 = 1
tri = une

And if you keep on saying they are all one God, then you have a God who is his own father, and at the same time his own son.

No.

There is ONE God.

He is THREE Persons.

Elohim, not Eloah.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit, is WHO He is.
God is WHAT He is.

Three WHOs, One WHAT.

Whereas humans are tripartite (body, soul, spirit), we are one WHAT and one WHO, God is triune (He created us in His image and likeness), He is one WHAT and three WHOs.

And his own servant. (Isaiah 53).

Addressed in the other thread.

It just doesn't make any sense.

God is not the author of confusion.
 

JudgeRightly

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Like I said above, in Hebrew there are a lot of singular things which can only be expressed with the plural ending "iem". For instance water, "mayim", face, "paniem", heaven "shamayim, and many others.

Yes. And?

Well, as we all know, there is no "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" to be found in Deut 6:4.

Not mentioned specifically, no, of course not.

But

And Deut 6:4 doesn't say that there is only one God, we have many other verses for that. What Deut 6:4 says is that Y-H-W-H is our God, and that Y-H-W-H is ONE.

It says: YHVH elohim YHVH echad.

There are Hebrew words for one of singularity. Yachad and bad (iirc). Why not use those instead? Why leave the possibility open for it to be, as Genesis 2:24 correctly shows it is possible to, translated as "one of unity"?

In case you weren't aware, Genesis 2:24 is the verse that states that a man shall leave his father and mother, and cling to his wife, and the TWO shall become ONE (echad, not yachad or bad) flesh.

In the same way that the TWO become ONE flesh, God is THREE Persons in ONE Godhead.

And therefore not two, not three, not three in one, but ONE!

Plural unity.

That whole trinity concept is nowhere to be found, not even in the NT.


Saying it doesn't make it so.

It is an emergency solution to turn 2 gods into one god.

Again, trinitarians are MONOtheistic, NOT polytheistic.
 

Elia

Well-known member
There's your problem.

It's not three individual Gods.

It's ONE God.

1 X 1 X 1 = 1
tri = une

Bs'd


So you think that if you want to count all of your gods, then you can say 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.


Well, we all make mistakes in life. Happens to the best of us. Not everybody is comfortable with higher mathematics.
But I'll explain this to you.

When you have three pieces of fruit, and every one of them is an apple, than you have 1 apple + 1 apple + 1apple = 3 apples.

Then you do not have 1 apple x 1 apple x 1 apple = 1 apple, but then you really have THREE apples.

Even so with gods.

When you have three persons who are all divine, then you have 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 3 gods.

Then you do not have 1 god x 1 god x 1 god = 1 god, but then you really have THREE gods.


Got it?
No.

There is ONE God.

He is THREE Persons.

Elohim, not Eloah.

The word Eloah is quite a few times used in the Tanach, so don't tell me He is not Eloah.

And your God might be tree, my God and the God of the Hebrew Bible, He is ONE, and not three.


Father, Son, Holy Spirit, is WHO He is.
God is WHAT He is.

Three WHOs, One WHAT.

Whereas humans are tripartite (body, soul, spirit), we are one WHAT and one WHO, God is triune (He created us in His image and likeness), He is one WHAT and three WHOs.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

NOWHERE does the Bible teach a trinity. That is an invention of the church.

However, God being one:

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4


"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible


"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version


"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible


"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version


"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"





"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version


“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version


"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version


"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible


"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version


"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is:Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version


"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version


"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message


"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version







"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version


"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version


"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version


"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version


"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version


"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation






"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version


"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation


"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version


"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.


"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.


"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible


"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version


"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible


"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible




So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible

God is not the author of confusion.

Then He is not a trinity, because that sure is confusing.

But also you cannot accept the Biblical fact that God is one.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Yes. And?

Bs"d

That proves that Elohiem doesn't have to be a plurality.

It says: YHVH elohim YHVH echad.

There are Hebrew words for one of singularity. Yachad and bad (iirc). Why not use those instead?

Because yachad means together. Bad means load. And "echad" means ONE. One - two - three in Hebrew is ECHAD, stayim, shalosh.


Why leave the possibility open for it to be, as Genesis 2:24 correctly shows it is possible to, translated as "one of unity"?

There is no "one of unity" in Genesis 2:24.

"And they shall be one flesh" ..... In the Hebrew: "wehayu levasar echad" ..... This text is claimed by Christianity to prove that the word 'echad' can point to, or be, a 'composite unity', one being made up of more than one.


'Echad', one, can point to a composite unity. Of course. One can also point to a million: One million houses. Here one points to a million, but one is still one. We have here one million, and not a million millions. The fact that one points to something else does not change the meaning of one. One is one, and one stays one.


The claim that 'echad', one, can be a composite unity, with as proof the above verse, is simply wrong. In the above verse the flesh, made up of two people, is the composite unity, and not the 'echad', the one. Compare this to the following: One group of people. Here the group is the composite unity, and not the word one. We don't have here a composite unity of composite unities, but we have here one composite unity (the group of people). One is one and one stays one.


And last but not least; what Christianity does here, is comparing apples to steaks. The verse 'they will be one flesh' cannot be compared to 'God is one'. In the first verse the one is a number, telling us that there will be only one flesh. But in the second verse the one is not a number telling us that there is one God, here the one is an adjective, telling us that God IS one. (and not three) Here the one describes the essence of God, it doesn't give us the amount of Gods. Therefore you can not draw a conclusion from the first verse and apply it to the other.


And of course, Christianity must not forget that they not only have the battle with the Hebrew word 'echad', but also with the Greek word 'eis', also meaning one. In Mark 12:28-34 the Christian messiah has a discussion with a scribe. The scribe asks him what is the first (that is here 'most important', not first in order, because many commandments were given earlier) commandment, and he answers: "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." Here he quotes Deuteronomy 6:4. That is in the Greek: 'Kurios' (Lord) 'eis' (one) 'estin' (is). When he said this to the scribe the scribe answers him: "You are right teacher; you have truly said that he is one (eis), and there is no other then he." Upon this answers Jesus: "You are not far from the kingdom of God." So basically everybody agrees that God is one, except for the Christians. Therefore; the Christians must not only twist, deform, and corrupt the meaning of 'echad', meaning one, into three, but also the Greek word 'eis'. The question is of course: How often can you pull stunts like that, and still have some credibility left?

For Christianity it is literally a matter of life and death to obscure the fact that God is one, because when God is one, then He is not three, and then the trinity goes out the window and the Christians are exposed as the idol worshipers they are. Therefore also here many Bible translations are corrupted. This is the answer of the scribe: “You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other then he." The scribe says: “HE IS ONE”. He does not say that there is one God, he says: “He (referring to God) IS ONE, and there is no other then he.” Take good notice that the scribe does not use the word “God”, the scribe refers to God with the word “He”. The word “God” does not appear in the answer of the scribe. But look now at some translations:

All versions of the King James: And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: (why else “King James ONLY!)

Youngs literal translation: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He; Youngs literal translation is not so literal here…

Worldwide English: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He;

Gone is the fact that God is one, replaced by the fact that there is one God. Christianity can live with one God. One God who is three that is: God the Father, god the son, and god the holy ghost.

Christianity can’t live with one God who is one, like the Bible teaches. Therefore the translations are corrupted, in order to cover up the fact that God is one.

But honor to whom honour is due, there are modern day Christian translations who translate this in the right way:

New International Version: "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.” The word “God” should have been “He”, but the message is correct.

New American Standard Bible: The scribe said to Him, ""Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that he is one, and there is no one else beside him.

Revised Standard Version: And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

Darby translation: And the scribe said to him, Right, teacher; thou hast spoken according to [the] truth. For he is one, and there is none other besides him;

Plural unity.

No such a thing exist in God.
Saying it doesn't make it so.

In that case; please tell me where in the Bible it is written that God is a trinity.

Again, trinitarians are MONOtheistic, NOT polytheistic.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

It is very simple: If you have a God the Father, and a god the son, then you
TWO (2) gods, and then you are a polytheist and an idol worshiper.
 

JudgeRightly

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So you think that if you want to count all of your gods, then you can say 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

I have one God. He is Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

He is not three Gods.

He is one God.

He is three PERSONS.

Well, we all make mistakes in life. Happens to the best of us. Not everybody is comfortable with higher mathematics.

Bearing false witness is a sin. Stop it.

But I'll explain this to you.

When you have three pieces of fruit, and every one of them is an apple, than you have 1 apple + 1 apple + 1apple = 3 apples.

Then you do not have 1 apple x 1 apple x 1 apple = 1 apple, but then you really have THREE apples.

Now apply that to the PERSONS of the Godhead.

1 Person (the Father) + 1 Person (the Son) + 1 Person (the Holy Spirit) = 3 Persons.

Still with me?

Even so with gods.

Nope.

There are three PERSONS, not three Gods.

When you have three persons who are all divine, then you have 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 3 gods.

But I don't have three Gods.

I have one God. He is three PERSONS, each of the three Persons are the same one God.

Come on, this isn't hard, nor is it confusing.

From one perspective, He is one God.

From another perspective, He is three Persons.

God is WHAT He is.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit is WHO He is.

Then you do not have 1 god x 1 god x 1 god = 1 god, but then you really have THREE gods.

Got it?

1 x 1 x 1 = 1
1 x 1 x 1 =/= 3.

The three Persons is the same one God, not three different Gods.

You are one human being (WHAT), and one person (WHO).

God is one God (WHAT) and THREE Persons (WHOs).

He made us in His image and likeness.

We are body, soul, and spirit.
He is Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

The word Eloah is quite a few times used in the Tanach, so don't tell me He is not Eloah.

Fair.

And your God might be three, my God and the God of the Hebrew Bible, He is ONE, and not three.

Wrong.

Jesus is God in the flesh, who spoke with His Father God in heaven, and was baptized with God the Holy Spirit who came in the form of a dove.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Right back atcha!

NOWHERE does the Bible teach a trinity.

Except that it does throughout.

That is an invention of the church.

It's not.

So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.

I agree!

Then He is not a trinity, because that sure is confusing.

Or, you're just having a hard time understanding it.

Try shifting your perspective.

But also you cannot accept the Biblical fact that God is one.

Supra.

That proves that Elohiem doesn't have to be a plurality.

Wrong.

There is no "one of unity" in Genesis 2:24.

I didn't say that the phrase "one of unity" is in Genesis 2:24.

I was making a point about it being the word used for a united plurality.

"And they shall be one flesh" ..... In the Hebrew: "wehayu levasar echad" ..... This text is claimed by Christianity to prove that the word 'echad' can point to, or be, a 'composite unity', one being made up of more than one.

'Echad', one, can point to a composite unity. Of course.

But apparently not when it refers to God for.... reasons....

The claim that 'echad', one, can be a composite unity, with as proof the above verse, is simply wrong. In the above verse the flesh, made up of two people, is the composite unity, and not the 'echad', the one. Compare this to the following: One group of people. Here the group is the composite unity, and not the word one. We don't have here a composite unity of composite unities, but we have here one composite unity (the group of people). One is one and one stays one.

Now take that same logic and apply it to God.

God is a composit unity. YHVH echad. God is one.

God, who is Father, Son, Holy Spirit, is one God, a composite unity.

Get it?

And last but not least; what Christianity does here, is comparing apples to steaks. The verse 'they will be one flesh' cannot be compared to 'God is one'. In the first verse the one is a number, telling us that there will be only one flesh. But in the second verse the one is not a number telling us that there is one God, here the one is an adjective, telling us that God IS one. (and not three) Here the one describes the essence of God, it doesn't give us the amount of Gods. Therefore you can not draw a conclusion from the first verse and apply it to the other.

This is where you're wrong.

Echad in BOTH verses is classified as a number.

And of course, Christianity must not forget that they not only have the battle with the Hebrew word 'echad', but also with the Greek word 'eis', also meaning one. In Mark 12:28-34 the Christian messiah has a discussion with a scribe. The scribe asks him what is the first (that is here 'most important', not first in order, because many commandments were given earlier) commandment, and he answers: "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." Here he quotes Deuteronomy 6:4. That is in the Greek: 'Kurios' (Lord) 'eis' (one) 'estin' (is). When he said this to the scribe the scribe answers him: "You are right teacher; you have truly said that he is one (eis), and there is no other then he." Upon this answers Jesus: "You are not far from the kingdom of God." So basically everybody agrees that God is one, except for the Christians.

Lying is a sin. Stop lying.

Christians agree that God is one.

Triune

"-une" means one.

Therefore; the Christians must not only twist, deform, and corrupt the meaning of 'echad', meaning one, into three, but also the Greek word 'eis'. The question is of course: How often can you pull stunts like that, and still have some credibility left?

Stop bearing false witness.

For Christianity it is literally a matter of life and death to obscure the fact that God is one, because when God is one, then He is not three, and then the trinity goes out the window and the Christians are exposed as the idol worshipers they are. Therefore also here many Bible translations are corrupted. This is the answer of the scribe: “You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other then he." The scribe says: “HE IS ONE”. He does not say that there is one God, he says: “He (referring to God) IS ONE, and there is no other then he.” Take good notice that the scribe does not use the word “God”, the scribe refers to God with the word “He”. The word “God” does not appear in the answer of the scribe. But look now at some translations:

All versions of the King James: And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: (why else “King James ONLY!)

I'm not a KJO fanatic.

Youngs literal translation: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He; Youngs literal translation is not so literal here…

Worldwide English: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He;

If your point is that some translations are better, and some worse, than others, then I fully agree.

There is no perfect translation in existence.

Gone is the fact that God is one, replaced by the fact that there is one God.

Supra.

Christianity can live with one God. One God who is three that is: God the Father, god the son, and god the holy ghost. Christianity can’t live with one God who is one, like the Bible teaches.

If God is not triune, then the ENTIRE BIBLE (including the Hebrew Scriptures) is false.

Therefore the translations are corrupted, in order to cover up the fact that God is one.

Or, you just can't accept the fact that the Bible is correct and God is both one, and three.

No such a thing exist in God.

False.

In that case; please tell me where in the Bible it is written that God is a trinity.

I'll do that when you tell me where the Bible is called "Bible" in scripture.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

I say it because it IS so.

Christianity is MONOtheistic. We believe in ONE God, who alone is God, there is no other.

It is very simple: If you have a God the Father, and a god the son, then you TWO (2) gods, and then you are a polytheist and an idol worshiper.

Not if they are the same ONE God.
 
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