Oh No Not Another Apocalypse Thread By Chrysostom

[chrysostom]

A Thousand Years
A bottomless pit connects chapters: 9, 11, 17, and 20 which proves the theory of recapitulation introduced by Victorinus. It holds that the chapters of the Apocalypse are not necessarily in chronological order. The beast chained in chapter 20 is being released in chapter 9. Also the thousand years started in chapter 20 is ended in chapter 18. The thousand years is when they "reigned with Christ". This has been misinterpreted as "reign of Christ" which cannot be found in the bible. Only on the internet. There is only one Christian empire where they reigned with Christ a thousand years. The Byzantine Empire. This empire started with the seven dynasties of the Roman empire and ended with the ten dynasties of Islam. The beast with seven heads and ten horns.

Why prophecy?
To prove God is in control. To comfort those not in control who are suffering. You don't need to understand it but it is there if you need some kind of assurance. The Apocalypse has concepts not addressed in any other place of the bible. Like the second death. Who talks about that? Like New Jerusalem. Who talks about that without putting it in the future. The future is for those who can't find prophecies already fulfilled in history. Many don't even bother looking. Most don't know how to connect history and prophecy. I use numbers and colors. Words you can trust. All the other words can be mistranslated or misinterpreted by men who are not necessarily inspired. That is why we have over 60 English bibles each with many revisions. Who can you trust? What can you trust? The Church does not have an official explanation for the Apocalypse which allows us to speculate. Nothing wrong with speculation if it is reasonable. So what is reasonable?

 

[chrysostom]

I am the only member online with 862 guests

 

[Right Divider]

I am the only member online with 862 guests

And?

 

[chrysostom]

And?

Why do members view as guests?
Now I am with over 1000 guests

 

[Right Divider]

Why do members view as guests?

What makes you believe that? I don't.

 

[chrysostom]

What makes you believe that? I don't.

Reason and logic.

 

[Right Divider]

Reason and logic.

Again, how do you know that members are viewing as guests?

 

[Clete]

Reason and logic.

 

[chrysostom]

Why prophecy?
To prove God is in control. To comfort those not in control who are suffering. You don't need to understand it but it is there if you need some kind of assurance. The Apocalypse has concepts not addressed in any other place of the bible. Like the second death. Who talks about that? Like New Jerusalem. Who talks about that without putting it in the future. The future is for those who can't find prophecies already fulfilled in history. Many don't even bother looking. Most don't know how to connect history and prophecy. I use numbers and colors. Words you can trust. All the other words can be mistranslated or misinterpreted by men who are not necessarily inspired. That is why we have over 60 English bibles each with many revisions. Who can you trust? What can you trust? The Church does not have an official explanation for the Apocalypse which allows us to speculate. Nothing wrong with speculation if it is reasonable. So what is reasonable?

What is reasonable?
To say the Apocalypse, written 2000 years ago, is about the second coming is not reasonable when it says the time is near. To say it is about the first coming could be reasonable if it was written before Jesus. We have reason to believe there is a version of the Apocalypse that didn't have the seven churches. Eusebius and Victorinus are not aware of them. John the Baptist was preparing the way for the lamb, a word found 27 times in the Apocalypse. We also have Irenaeus mentioning ancient copies of the Apocalypse. A conjecture by Vischer suggests it was originally a purely Jewish composition. Thank you AI.

 

[Clete]

What is reasonable?
To say the Apocalypse, written 2000 years ago, is about the second coming is not reasonable when it says the time is near. To say it is about the first coming could be reasonable if it was written before Jesus. We have reason to believe there is a version of the Apocalypse that didn't have the seven churches. Eusebius and Victorinus are not aware of them. John the Baptist was preparing the way for the lamb, a word found 27 times in the Apocalypse. We also have Irenaeus mentioning ancient copies of the Apocalypse. A conjecture by Vischer suggests it was originally a purely Jewish composition. Thank you AI.

The errors that compound because one fails to rightly divide the Word of Truth (2 Timothy 2:15) are astounding! People waste their whole lives running down the wrong road, chasing the wrong White Rabbit.

 

[chrysostom]

The errors that compound because one fails to rightly divide the Word of Truth (2 Timothy 2:15) are astounding! People waste their whole lives running down the wrong road, chasing the wrong White Rabbit.

John the Apostle is writing to the seven churches. Who are they? What does that tell you?

 

[Right Divider]

John the Apostle is writing to the seven churches.

Duh

Who are they?

Jewish congregations.

What does that tell you?

That we can learn from it, but it does not directly apply to the body of Christ.

 

[chrysostom]

That we can learn from it, but it does not directly apply to the body of Christ.

So it only applies to Jews. Can I become a Jew? What makes a Jew a Jew. Can Jews be saved?

 

[Right Divider]

So it only applies to Jews.

Directly

Can I become a Jew?

Why would you want to be a Jew? Join the body of Christ, it's what God is doing today.

What makes a Jew a Jew.

Descendancy.

Can Jews be saved?

Please... only ask serious questions.

 

[Clete]

So it only applies to Jews. Can I become a Jew? What makes a Jew a Jew. Can Jews be saved?

When we use the word “Jew” in this context, it is shorthand for the believing remnant of Israel, the people to whom Peter, James, John, and Jude ministered (see Galatians 2:9). Every believer before Paul’s ministry belonged to that group. Some were Jews by birth, others were proselytes who had submitted to circumcision and the Law of Moses, yet together they formed the Messianic remnant to whom the Kingdom program was directed.

The twelve apostles wrote to that remnant, not to the Body of Christ. Revelation’s seven churches were assemblies of those same Kingdom believers, not Body of Christ churches under Paul’s gospel. The terminology “Jew” communicates this distinction well enough, although technically we are referring to believing Israel.

Today things are different. Israel has been "cut off" (See Jeremiah 18 and Romans 9-11); their covenant program is in abeyance. In this dispensation there is no Jew or Gentile in terms of covenant standing. Anyone could become a Jew in the ethnic or religious sense, but it would accomplish nothing regarding salvation, just as converting to any other system would accomplish nothing. Judaism today does not place a person in the remnant of Israel, since that remnant is not presently operating.

As for salvation, Jews today are saved the same way Gentiles are saved. They come to Christ by the gospel given to Paul. They recognize their need, believe that Christ died for their sins, and trust that God raised Him from the dead. Nothing added. Nothing mixed in. Christ lives in the believer, and the believer’s life is found in Him.

The difficulty you are having is not with the gospel itself but with the structure of Scripture. You are blending the gospel of the Kingdom with the gospel of grace, the remnant of Israel with the Body of Christ, and the earthly promises to Israel with the heavenly promises given to us. The result is confusion, contradiction, and a gospel that ends up depending on human effort and religious additions rather than on Christ alone.

Rightly dividing the word of truth matters because God has spoken more than one message to more than one people at more than one time. Until that distinction is acknowledged, your understanding of Scripture will remain tangled.

 

[chrysostom]

As for salvation, Jews today are saved the same way Gentiles are saved. They come to Christ by the gospel given to Paul.

Thank you for that clarity.
So for everyone only what Paul wrote applies? Is it clear what Paul wrote? What is the purpose of the rest of the Bible?

 

[Idolater]

Thank you for that clarity.
So for everyone only what Paul wrote applies? Is it clear what Paul wrote? What is the purpose of the rest of the Bible?

To instruct us in how to do good works, and in which good works to do. Acts 9erism is not libertine or antinomian, they believe in grave moral obligations. They will not disagree with this post.

$$ 2Ti 3:16
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
$$ 2Ti 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[chrysostom]

What does AI tell you about the dynasties of the Roman empire?

 

[Clete]

Thank you for that clarity.
So for everyone only what Paul wrote applies? Is it clear what Paul wrote? What is the purpose of the rest of the Bible?

Only what Paul wrote applies directly to the Body of Christ. That does not mean the rest of the Bible has no purpose. It simply means the audience must be respected.

You already do this without thinking. When you read Deuteronomy, you do not take what you've read as cause to avoid pepperoni pizza, you do not bring doves to a priest, and you do not arrange your life around the sacrificial calendar. You recognize that Moses was not writing to the Irish, the Romans, the Americans, or to a twenty-first-century Catholic. You intuitively grasp that the Law was given to Israel under a covenant to which you do not belong.

That same principle is precisely what people resist when they reach the New Testament. Once people flip the page from Malachi over to Matthew, the instinct to pay attention to context just disappears. Peter writes to the circumcision believers who were living under the Kingdom program (I Peter 2:9-10). James writes to the twelve tribes (James 1:1). Jude writes to the same Kingdom remnant (Jude 1:1). The book of Hebrews addresses those who stood between Israel's Old Covenant and Israel's New Covenant (Hebrews 1:1-2 & 8:8). None of this material is directed to the Body of Christ.

The difference shows in the content of the two different messages. Jesus taught obedience to the Law of Moses. Paul forbids it. Jesus promised earthly blessings in a restored kingdom. Paul describes a heavenly position in a heavenly organism. Peter warns his audience that salvation can be forfeited. Paul teaches that salvation is secure because it is grounded in Christ, not in human perseverance. James requires works as a condition of justification. Paul insists that justification is “to him that worketh not.” - (Romans 4:5 DRB)

These are distinct messages to distinct peoples at distinct times and the differences are not trivial. The two gospels are distinct in content and incompatible in practice. The Kingdom gospel is God’s program for Israel. The gospel of grace is God’s program for the Body of Christ. Most people never notice the difference because they read the Bible through a set of inherited assumptions, and those assumptions merge things that God kept separate. This is a practice that cannot be done consistently. When you blend them, the result is confusion and contradiction, but when you rightly divide them, the Bible stops fighting with itself and begins to speak with perfect consistency. That is why it's often such a dramatic "light bulb moment" for those who finally see it. Once the distinction becomes visible, it cannot be unseen. It is suddenly everywhere. It is completely unmistakable and totally unavoidable.

In short, the entire Bible is both true and profitable. The entire Bible reveals God’s character and God’s plan but must be read in context. So, the question is not whether a particular passage has value to the modern reader. It certainly does. The question is to whom a passage is addressed. Ignoring that question leads to the mixture you've spent the last several decades concocting, where Israel’s covenant promises, kingdom instructions, and prophetic warnings are all imported into a dispensation where they do not belong.

 

[chrysostom]

Jesus taught obedience to the Law of Moses. Paul forbids it.

That is not true. Jesus taught love of God and neighbor. Paul taught most of the Law of Moses was not required.
Most Christians accept the four gospels written by four different apostles as most important. Why would anyone accept only the word of the only apostle who wasn't there to witness the Jesus story? That would make Paul more important than Jesus.
Thank you for your post. It was interesting.