No substitution! Christ took suicidal devil’s wrath on self to save.

It often happens here and all places too that a crazy head of the family kills the whole family and then suicides. In some cases a parent, brother or a concerned neighbor intervenes and gets wounded, often fatally. In that case the family is saved, at least for the time being.

In the case of nation too, it happens as in the case of Israel then and in Germany and Russia now. Pre-election-haughty Jews hated all around. So they turned all their neighbors into enemies. Most reasonably they were often attacked and punished. Then their refusal to obey Christ in loving enemy Romans instead of hate was turning towards acute suicidal rebellion. For preaching that universal love they crucified Christ as they killed Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. recently. By taking the wrath of Jews on himself Christ delayed their rebellion-suicide for many years and saved many among them who followed him in enemy love to martyrdom. The only way to gain greater life is to invest-sacrifice the smaller life we have.

In case of elect-haughty Germany the same thing happened. In the end Hitler did suicide after devastating Germany and giving order to his army to destroy the survivors. But here also martyrs like Bonhoeffer mitigated it by taking devil’s wrath meekly.

Russia would have followed communism’s world dominion scheme worse that Germany, even by atomic world war, if not thwarted that way by millions of martyrs. For that communism failed, never by economic causes, as communist china still thrives. Due to those martyrs, even leaders lost faith in communism to stop trying to readjust it like china. Now china is the greatest enemy of humanity and themselves as there are scanty number of Christian martyrs to check them.

So Christ took the wrath of haughty devil guided humanity on him meekly to shield others as a mother shields fighting brothers. It also produces repentance and change of heart. It is not to shield us from absolute love Heavenly Father who has no wrath. It is a blasphemous doctrine that Christ was a substitute to save us from the wrath of most humble Heavenly Father! Rather He in Christ took the wrath of pride-devil guided fallen humanity to turn saner among them back from personal and collective suicide.
 

dreadknought

New member
.............. So Christ took the wrath of haughty devil guided humanity on him meekly to shield others as a mother shields fighting brothers. It also produces repentance and change of heart. It is not to shield us from absolute love Heavenly Father who has no wrath. It is a blasphemous doctrine that Christ was a substitute to save us from the wrath of most humble Heavenly Father! Rather He in Christ took the wrath of pride-devil guided fallen humanity to turn saner among them back from personal and collective suicide.
:think: Isaiah 53:10-11NASB; Romans 1:18NASB; Romans 5:9NASB; Ephesians 5:6NASB
 

Letsargue

New member
What in the ( World ) are you talking of God about??? – God NEVER said anything like that. You just go on and on with the most diverse stuff and call it “Knowledge”, and the “Wisdom” of God?????????? ---- What’s the matter with reading God and speaking Christ the Word of God and leave out all your “Vinegar Leaven”. ---- What does it mean: -- 1 Timothy 4:13 KJV – 13- “ ((( “Till I come” ))), (( “GIVE” attendance to reading )), ( to exhortation, to doctrine )???? -------///--- What does that mean?? - You Geniuses, tell us all just what did God say there that you all deny that it is of “Much” value, and argue against it, and lie, saying that you read God; - God’s WAY!!!!!!! - What does “Give” mean to God?? – “GIVE” means to the point of “Loving Sacrifice”; to the point of Jesus Christ!! ----- (( Boy, am I looking forward to; and going to LOVE the End ))!!

Paul – 032213
 

Totton Linnet

New member
It often happens here and all places too that a crazy head of the family kills the whole family and then suicides. In some cases a parent, brother or a concerned neighbor intervenes and gets wounded, often fatally. In that case the family is saved, at least for the time being.

In the case of nation too, it happens as in the case of Israel then and in Germany and Russia now. Pre-election-haughty Jews hated all around. So they turned all their neighbors into enemies. Most reasonably they were often attacked and punished. Then their refusal to obey Christ in loving enemy Romans instead of hate was turning towards acute suicidal rebellion. For preaching that universal love they crucified Christ as they killed Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. recently. By taking the wrath of Jews on himself Christ delayed their rebellion-suicide for many years and saved many among them who followed him in enemy love to martyrdom. The only way to gain greater life is to invest-sacrifice the smaller life we have.

In case of elect-haughty Germany the same thing happened. In the end Hitler did suicide after devastating Germany and giving order to his army to destroy the survivors. But here also martyrs like Bonhoeffer mitigated it by taking devil’s wrath meekly.

Russia would have followed communism’s world dominion scheme worse that Germany, even by atomic world war, if not thwarted that way by millions of martyrs. For that communism failed, never by economic causes, as communist china still thrives. Due to those martyrs, even leaders lost faith in communism to stop trying to readjust it like china. Now china is the greatest enemy of humanity and themselves as there are scanty number of Christian martyrs to check them.

So Christ took the wrath of haughty devil guided humanity on him meekly to shield others as a mother shields fighting brothers. It also produces repentance and change of heart. It is not to shield us from absolute love Heavenly Father who has no wrath. It is a blasphemous doctrine that Christ was a substitute to save us from the wrath of most humble Heavenly Father! Rather He in Christ took the wrath of pride-devil guided fallen humanity to turn saner among them back from personal and collective suicide.

If He could not save Himself from the devil's wrath there is no need to suppose He can save you.

If man has turned to follow Satan rather than God who created him then God has good cause to be angry with man. Or is devil more powerful than God? so that God cannot stop the devil's wrath [as you suppose] Jesus said He gave His life a RANSOM.

What a Saviour, what a gospel, God is justly angry with man but He sends His Son [who is God in flesh] to take upon Himself the wrath, the punishment which man fully deserves then He imparts to every man, every woman who believes this His own divine life.

THIS is the gospel India needs, this is the gospel which saves souls.
 

Totton Linnet

New member
You might like to study the question of present day China martyrs a bit more thoroughly, there are HUNDREDS and hundreds in this generation laying down their lives, and surviving in utter misery in penal camps.

You sir are wrong there.
 
You might like study the question of present day China martyrs a bit more thoroughly, there are HUNDREDS and hundreds in this generation laying down their lives, and surviving in utter misery in penal camps.

You sir are wrong there.

I am answering both of ur posts.
I am receiving daily updates about Chinese persecution. But that is very small compared to Russian one.
My highly educated dad became atheist rejecting that God, who claimed omnipotence while punishing his defective creation. Even a worldly parent with limited power and involvement is held responsible for the defects of children. Then an absolutely omnipotent God must be absolutely responsible for His creation not the created one.
Don’t preach such most unjust monster god to drive people to atheism!

Christ didn’t come to save us from the cross but to win over it by love. So do martyrs still today.
 
What in the ( World ) are you talking of God about??? – God NEVER said anything like that. You just go on and on with the most diverse stuff and call it “Knowledge”, and the “Wisdom” of God?????????? ---- What’s the matter with reading God and speaking Christ the Word of God and leave out all your “Vinegar Leaven”. ---- What does it mean: -- 1 Timothy 4:13 KJV – 13- “ ((( “Till I come” ))), (( “GIVE” attendance to reading )), ( to exhortation, to doctrine )???? -------///--- What does that mean?? - You Geniuses, tell us all just what did God say there that you all deny that it is of “Much” value, and argue against it, and lie, saying that you read God; - God’s WAY!!!!!!! - What does “Give” mean to God?? – “GIVE” means to the point of “Loving Sacrifice”; to the point of Jesus Christ!! ----- (( Boy, am I looking forward to; and going to LOVE the End ))!!

Paul – 032213
Christ, the living word of God, talks to his followers, not to idle brainwashed talkers about catholic made books. God given Reason is above everything and Christ exhorted us to use it.
Christ taking our place before the wrath of devil is the best love given to us. Blasphemy is what makes God hated. If you say God is wrathful you make him hated by humanity. You are responsible for rampant atheism
 
:think: Isaiah 53:10-11NASB; Romans 1:18NASB; Romans 5:9NASB; Ephesians 5:6NASB

The people brainwashed by catholic-made bible quote from it to compare Heavenly Father to Mass-murderer Jehovah!
Paul was proponent of him as a potter smashing defective pots, sending unbelievers to etrnal death, creating majority for etrnal damnation etc.

 

Letsargue

New member
Christ, the living word of God, talks to his followers, not to idle brainwashed talkers about catholic made books. God given Reason is above everything and Christ exhorted us to use it.
Christ taking our place before the wrath of devil is the best love given to us. Blasphemy is what makes God hated. If you say God is wrathful you make him hated by humanity. You are responsible for rampant atheism


Don't read it, I don't care!!!

There are two gods, one of the world, and the other of Heaven. ((They both ( teach the exact ) same thing )!!! – Only the God of Heaven teaches the Heavenly Blessings, and the god of your world teaches the blessings of Satan ---- That’s called “Wolves in Sheep’s clothing”!! – Satan looks like Christ, talks like Christ, and is a giver as Christ; only earthly gifts, and you all fell for it; - “Good and faithful servants of the devil”!! --- Matthew 4:9 KJV – 9- “And saith unto him, All these things ( will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me ). ----//--- Your whole divided house ( OWNS it all ), and nothing of the Heavenly House. – Look at you all; you fight for the carnal!! --- Gay marriages; - you fight against Gays????? – What’s the difference between being Gay, a thief, a murderer, “( a Liar ) / ( False Teacher )”, an adulterer, or anything that is a sin?? - Sin is sin!! - Sin is anything contrary to the “Ten Commandments” / “The Commandments of Christ”. – Why don’t you geniuses fight against driving over the speed limit which is just as sinful against the Way of Christ; a Sin, and more done by ?christians!!!!!!! – Save someone from being Gay, what have you done; -- nothing!! – Save someone from ((( SIN ))), you save their Souls!!!! – But you all have an agenda of your fathers; --- John 8:44 KJV – 44- “Ye are of your father the devil, ((( and the lusts of your father ye will do ))). He was a murderer from the beginning, ( and abode not in the Truth, because there is no Truth in him ). When he ( speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his ) own: for he is a liar, and the ( father of IT ). -----///---

Paul – 032213
 

Totton Linnet

New member
I am answering both of ur posts.
I am receiving daily updates about Chinese persecution. But that is very small compared to Russian one.
My highly educated dad became atheist rejecting that God, who claimed omnipotence while punishing his defective creation. Even a worldly parent with limited power and involvement is held responsible for the defects of children. Then an absolutely omnipotent God must be absolutely responsible for His creation not the created one.
Don’t preach such most unjust monster god to drive people to atheism!

Christ didn’t come to save us from the cross but to win over it by love. So do martyrs still today.
*
When researching the church in China don't research the 3 face national church but the more numerous house churches which is prohibited by law, that's where the martyrs are. Browse China's house churches.
 

Totton Linnet

New member
I am answering both of ur posts.
I am receiving daily updates about Chinese persecution. But that is very small compared to Russian one.
My highly educated dad became atheist rejecting that God, who claimed omnipotence while punishing his defective creation. Even a worldly parent with limited power and involvement is held responsible for the defects of children. Then an absolutely omnipotent God must be absolutely responsible for His creation not the created one.
With all due reverence to your father Stephengo you state what his real problem was he was "highly educated" A human father who has done all he could possibly be expected to do and done it well in respect of bringing up his children is not reponsible for their defects.

But children are born with a sin nature, Adam was not created with a sin nature.

You and I were not in the garden, we have a very short account of what happened....we have no account of the warfare that was taking place in the spirit world, the struggle for the soul of man between God and the forces of Satan. Did Satan win the war? no but he won a great battle.

It is absolutely essential to LOVE that man should have the choice. to be righteous and live, or to be wicked and die. But he permitted himself to be decieved. Do not my dear Stephengo allow yourself to be deceived by the great deceiver of mankind.

Man has joined the enemy of God...do not tell me Stephengo that this is not a sin worthy of God's wrath.

Don’t preach such most unjust monster god to drive people to atheism!
I preach man a monster who could be so ungrateful and wicked as to treacherously join himself to be an ally of God's arch enemy in his plan to overthrow the throne of God in heaven..Man deserves to die for this, ME, I deserve to die...but God has had mercy and sent a Redeemer.

My God is a most merciful Father.

Christ didn’t come to save us from the cross but to win over it by love. So do martyrs still today.
Christ did not save us from the cross He saved us by MEANS of the cross. Death for death and life for life. I was the sinner, I deserved to die but He died for me, He took my place. Aw only LOVE could do such a thing. For this love I will give my life as a martyr
 
Christ did not save us from the cross He saved us by MEANS of the cross. Death for death and life for life. I was the sinner, I deserved to die but He died for me, He took my place. Aw only LOVE could do such a thing. For this love I will give my life as a martyr

These emotional statements are ludicrous.
So you say that a vile instrument of torture devised by devil is necessary to save us.!!
Certainly I am a sinner deserving death and seeking suicide as I was in my tortured past. But Christ turned me from suicide by the touch of his exquisite ever living love. Teacher He showed me how to overcome the torturous world.
But as you are not walking my path you wont understand!
 

Letsargue

New member
These emotional statements are ludicrous.
So you say that a vile instrument of torture devised by devil is necessary to save us.!!
Certainly I am a sinner deserving death and seeking suicide as I was in my tortured past. But Christ turned me from suicide by the touch of his exquisite ever living love. Teacher He showed me how to overcome the torturous world.
But as you are not walking my path you wont understand!


There's absolutely no "Knowledge" in any of this Stuff; just Hate!! - The Knowledge of God is -- "LOVE"!! - Where is it???? -- The Knowledge comes from the Tree / Cross. - Hate cannot come from there, - but here: there is nothing but Hate, so where does that come from?? - Hell!!!

Paul -- 032313
 

Vaquero45

New member
Christ, the living word of God, talks to his followers, not to idle brainwashed talkers about catholic made books. God given Reason is above everything and Christ exhorted us to use it.
Christ taking our place before the wrath of devil is the best love given to us. Blasphemy is what makes God hated. If you say God is wrathful you make him hated by humanity. You are responsible for rampant atheism

What is your source for the claims you make about what Jesus did? Are you saying Jesus told you all of this Himself, and you therefore are a prophet?
 

Letsargue

New member
What is your source for the claims you make about what Jesus did? Are you saying Jesus told you all of this Himself, and you therefore are a prophet?


Hey!! - There are two sides of these revelations. - Satan has his prophets also; false prophets!!! - He and his children can't use anything that is Truth, just stuff from their own ( hearts )!! ---- Proverbs 23:7 KJV -----//--- That goes for any fool. --- Psalms 14:1 KJV ------///--- That is saying that the "Fool" only says with his mouth good things of God, but in his heart he is the lying fooll!! Guess who it is in a fool's heart!! --- Matthew 15:8 KJV ----///--- Is there anything else that needs to be said for these loving ?christians and their doctrines????? --- Do I need to speak for Christ any further??

Paul -- 032313
 

Totton Linnet

New member
These emotional statements are ludicrous.
So you say that a vile instrument of torture devised by devil is necessary to save us.!!
Certainly I am a sinner deserving death and seeking suicide as I was in my tortured past. But Christ turned me from suicide by the touch of his exquisite ever living love. Teacher He showed me how to overcome the torturous world.
But as you are not walking my path you wont understand!
It is true dear StephenGo we cannot walk each other the other's path, perhaps if you were saved young and attractive and well off in England your discipleship would have fizzled out in a few hours, at the first temptation, maybe...Indian people living in England are TWICE as worldly as English born people are.

Our temptations are fierce, ready to pull soul from spirit.

But some of us have turned our backs on it all and count it all as dung for the more excellent knowledge of our dear Lord. We have found Him more precious...if others backslide and go back to worldliness or some never seem to come out of it, yet we know that our God is merciful. Our ministry can only be to help, to teach and encourage them and especially to pray for them, especially as we see that they bring sorrow upon themselves.

I'm saying if you think the devil is so strong and able to overcome and kill Jesus...what hope can you have?

He was not and is not. Devil IS able to overcome and kill US. And that is the master we have turned to follow and obey YOU as well as ME. Until we come to the Lord.

Devil did not kill Jesus...Jesus our Lord laid down His life, He gave Himself up for us, dying on our behalf and THEREBY He broke the very power that the devil has over us...death. When Christ took our death for us on the cross and we came to Him He imparted to us His very own divine LIFE.

Hallelujah StephenGo what a salvation, what can the devil do to us now? if he kill us, we go to be with the Lord. This is what baptism signifies, we are buried with Christ in His death but now are risen up with Him in newness of life, never to die no more. What joy.
 

Letsargue

New member
It is true dear StephenGo we cannot walk each other the other's path, perhaps if you were saved young and attractive and well off in England your discipleship would have fizzled out in a few hours, at the first temptation, maybe...Indian people living in England are TWICE as worldly as English born people are.

Our temptations are fierce, ready to pull soul from spirit.

But some of us have turned our backs on it all and count it all as dung for the more excellent knowledge of our dear Lord. We have found Him more precious...if others backslide and go back to worldliness or some never seem to come out of it, yet we know that our God is merciful. Our ministry can only be to help, to teach and encourage them and especially to pray for them, especially as we see that they bring sorrow upon themselves.

I'm saying if you think the devil is so strong and able to overcome and kill Jesus...what hope can you have?

He was not and is not. Devil IS able to overcome and kill US. And that is the master we have turned to follow and obey YOU as well as ME. Until we come to the Lord.

Devil did not kill Jesus...Jesus our Lord laid down His life, He gave Himself up for us, dying on our behalf and THEREBY He broke the very power that the devil has over us...death. When Christ took our death for us on the cross and we came to Him He imparted to us His very own divine LIFE.

Hallelujah StephenGo what a salvation, what can the devil do to us now? if he kill us, we go to be with the Lord. This is what baptism signifies, we are buried with Christ in His death but now are risen up with Him in newness of life, never to die no more. What joy.


You say that you all are Tempted!! – ( How, - being not of the world, can any of you be Tempted )?? – Your Not of the World???? - The World is full of Temptations!! - Then you’re still in the World, and you still call yourself a Christian and being Tempted in the World?????? - How can that be If you’re Christian in Christ where the Shield protects one from / “From” Temptations. – This is not the “OLD WORLD”, under the Law!!!! – Again, I Rebuke you!!!!

You'll say that Jesus was "Tempted". -- Oh, - was He?? - Eve was Tempted and did eat. - Jesus was tempted and did stand on the Word (( far, far from )) Satan, and give Rebuke, like all Christians!! The Word / the Truth puts one out of reach of Satan; - but out of your own mouth, You're Tempted of Satan because you're ( With him ), no other "WAY"!!!

Paul – 032413
 

Totton Linnet

New member
You say that you all are Tempted!! – ( How, - being not of the world, can any of you be Tempted )?? – Your Not of the World???? - The World is full of Temptations!! - Then you’re still in the World,
Of COURSE we are in the world stupido, do you think heaven would tolerate all the horseshine you are full of? we are in the world but we are not part of the world, we have been saved out of it. We are [most of us] now busily engaged with the Lord in saving others out of the world.
and you still call yourself a Christian and being Tempted in the World?????? - How can that be If you’re Christian in Christ where the Shield protects one from / “From” Temptations.
Our enemy is invisible but he is real for all that, he cannot defeat us in the matter of salvation, that is settled once and forever at Calvary...but [as we see in your case] he can make us ineffective and USELESS in the matter of soulwinning and in blessing the saints
– This is not the “OLD WORLD”, under the Law!!!! – Again, I Rebuke you!!!!
If we are not under the law by what do you rebuke me? [:eek: oh I am quaking in my boots at your rebuke]

We are not under law but grace....if we are not under the law but under grace will we be gracious?

You'll say that Jesus was "Tempted". -- Oh, - was He?? - Eve was Tempted and did eat. - Jesus was tempted and did stand on the Word (( far, far from )) Satan,
So do we, so do we...the Lord makes us to stand, and when we do fall He picks us up and makes us to stand still, and if we fall 50 times a day for 50 years He will pick us up again 50 times a day for 50 years until we DO stand.

God is determined not to quit on us until we learn to stand. Some of us get the victory faster than others...but the victory is not ours but His and it is already won for us at Calvary...whether we enter into it or not...providing we are saved...are YOU saved?
and give Rebuke, like all Christians!! The Word / the Truth puts one out of reach of Satan; - but out of your own mouth, You're Tempted of Satan because you're ( With him ), no other "WAY"!!!
The reason you think you are out of reach of Satan is because you are in his arms. He is so close to you that you do not recognise him. He strokes your beard and tells you how wise you are, you are his darling

Paul – 032413
 

not4sure

New member
It often happens here and all places too that a crazy head of the family kills the whole family and then suicides. In some cases a parent, brother or a concerned neighbor intervenes and gets wounded, often fatally. In that case the family is saved, at least for the time being.

In the case of nation too, it happens as in the case of Israel then and in Germany and Russia now. Pre-election-haughty Jews hated all around. So they turned all their neighbors into enemies. Most reasonably they were often attacked and punished. Then their refusal to obey Christ in loving enemy Romans instead of hate was turning towards acute suicidal rebellion. For preaching that universal love they crucified Christ as they killed Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. recently. By taking the wrath of Jews on himself Christ delayed their rebellion-suicide for many years and saved many among them who followed him in enemy love to martyrdom. The only way to gain greater life is to invest-sacrifice the smaller life we have.

In case of elect-haughty Germany the same thing happened. In the end Hitler did suicide after devastating Germany and giving order to his army to destroy the survivors. But here also martyrs like Bonhoeffer mitigated it by taking devil’s wrath meekly.

Russia would have followed communism’s world dominion scheme worse that Germany, even by atomic world war, if not thwarted that way by millions of martyrs. For that communism failed, never by economic causes, as communist china still thrives. Due to those martyrs, even leaders lost faith in communism to stop trying to readjust it like china. Now china is the greatest enemy of humanity and themselves as there are scanty number of Christian martyrs to check them.

So Christ took the wrath of haughty devil guided humanity on him meekly to shield others as a mother shields fighting brothers. It also produces repentance and change of heart. It is not to shield us from absolute love Heavenly Father who has no wrath. It is a blasphemous doctrine that Christ was a substitute to save us from the wrath of most humble Heavenly Father! Rather He in Christ took the wrath of pride-devil guided fallen humanity to turn saner among them back from personal and collective suicide.

 

Totton Linnet

New member
It is true dear StephenGo we cannot walk each other the other's path, perhaps if you were saved young and attractive and well off in England your discipleship would have fizzled out in a few hours, at the first temptation, maybe...Indian people living in England are TWICE as worldly as English born people are.

Our temptations are fierce, ready to pull soul from spirit.

But some of us have turned our backs on it all and count it all as dung for the more excellent knowledge of our dear Lord. We have found Him more precious...if others backslide and go back to worldliness or some never seem to come out of it, yet we know that our God is merciful. Our ministry can only be to help, to teach and encourage them and especially to pray for them, especially as we see that they bring sorrow upon themselves.

I'm saying if you think the devil is so strong and able to overcome and kill Jesus...what hope can you have?

He was not and is not. Devil IS able to overcome and kill US. And that is the master we have turned to follow and obey YOU as well as ME. Until we come to the Lord.

Devil did not kill Jesus...Jesus our Lord laid down His life, He gave Himself up for us, dying on our behalf and THEREBY He broke the very power that the devil has over us...death. When Christ took our death for us on the cross and we came to Him He imparted to us His very own divine LIFE.

Hallelujah StephenGo what a salvation, what can the devil do to us now? if he kill us, we go to be with the Lord. This is what baptism signifies, we are buried with Christ in His death but now are risen up with Him in newness of life, never to die no more. What joy.
*
Incidently dear Stephengo in nearby Southampton we have a very large Asian Christian out-reach working among all Asian peoples who have come to Britain, many have been saved and many have become strong disciples it is a great joy to have connection with them.

Although it was started by English the leadership is now more and more Asian and they worship in their own style according to their culture. They also have spread to other large towns and cities where there are large Asian populations. Praise God.
 
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