No Longer A Christian

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by granite1010



When everything in your gut tells you something's reprehensible, contrary to God's supposed nature, and you just shrug it off, it says more about Christians than former ones.

first- what is correction?
is it correction if you kid plays in the street, and you explain the danger?
is it correction when i tell OT lovin bloodthirsty christians they got the message from Jesus wrong?

second-who died on those battle fields of the OT?
how do you know it was not just that they died?

does Jesus teach peace amoung ALL men?

 

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by PureX

The ones that promote love and forgiveness and healing are the ones that come from God. The ones that promote condemnation and division and fear are the ones that came from religious zealots who "edited" the story to make Jesus represent their own sick views of God and man.

Simple.

by "edited" do you mean in the Bible, or in their hearts?

 

[BChristianK]

Dear Granite:

God is who we look to, not man. He/she will not disappoint you.

I thought, you thought man was a subset of God?


Grace and Peace

 

[Mr. Coffee]

The topic of hell and the wrath of God has come up here and I'd like to make a few observations.

The wrath of God is an expression of his goodness.

In our own experience as moral beings we understand the necessity of wrath. In that one cannot be truly caring if one is incapable of morally appropriate anger and horror, we have a finite and analogical (and all too human) way of understanding this very important aspect of God's nature. The retributive emotions have their legitimate place in our moral life. There are times when one cannot act otherwise, for to do so would be neither wisdom nor serenity. It would be sociopathy.

None of this is to imply that our anger is always holy. Because of sin, our anger is usually self-righteous, not God-righteous. The wrath of God is pure and just.

And none of this is to imply that the Christian God is anthropomorphic. Rather, it goes the other way around: we were made in the image of a moral God.

A few words about hell. I think that I should start with the Christian concept of the self. The Buddhist concept of the self is that it is a never-resolved patterning tendency that ultimately disappears into Nirvana, about which we can say nothing. The Christian concept of the self is different: you are revealed to be something, a definitive kind of person, at the moment of death--you are what you have done, and you are judged as such. We spend our lives making a life that is constituted by our choices and actions (and there are no morally irrelevant human acts), and this is who we are. And we are sinners. And we are justly and necessarily opposed by the holiness of God. It is perfectly good for God to hate sinful people. It would not have compromised or diminished his love if he had only loved justice. Salvation is completely gratuitous. You are your own worst problem, and you are saved through someone else: "I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." Apart from the atoning work of Christ, heaven would vomit you out.

It has been said here that Christianity teaches that God is basically saying, "believe in me or I'll punish you forever." We are not saying that God is hungry for applause. The condemnation of sinners is a moral judgement: it is a fact that God should be loved and served, and God is just to repudiate the evil of idolatry and unbelief.

God's judgement on the Cannaanites has come up. Glenn Miller has shown that what seems like the "Unfair genocide of the Canaanites" is really the "Less-than-they-deserved punitive deportation from the land"--filled with patience and mercy and 'second chances'. It was nonetheless a judgment, and nonetheless involved death--as it later would be repeated to His people. Miller's full, careful treatment of the topic is available here.

 

[smothers]

Originally posted by brother Willi

i will NOT apologise for what has happened.
what did, did.
i am not smarter then God.

You shouldn't apologizie, none of the mystical things ever happened.

take from the OT what you like, be happy you were not Gods enemy then.

More likely thank goodness you weren't enemies of God's fan club who used their belief in her as a blunt instrument.

if you learn the Word, you have peace within yourself, you do NOT seek the blood of your enemy

Really? Why do most fundamentalist Christians support pre-emptive strikes against their enemy? Bloodthirsty acts and Christianity are historically closely related.

 

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by smothers
Really? Why do most fundamentalist Christians support pre-emptive strikes against their enemy? Bloodthirsty acts and Christianity are historically closely related.

remember the show "Alll in the family"

alot of Archy Bunkers here.

FEAR is the number one enemy to understanding what Jesus taught.

 

[BChristianK]

Dear BChristianK:

This should not surprise you.

It doesn’t, but it should.

And, it's no different than what anyone does, it's only difficult for you to see it in print.

No, it is quite different from what anyone else does. There are scores of books written on the principles designed to determine what texts can be determined to be accurate and which have interpolations, redaction and errors. None of those books advocate picking and choosing what is historically accurate and what isn’t on the basis of wishful thinking.
Your method is the embodiment of a logical fallacy “appeal to consequences.�

Chew on it for a while and you will realize that EVERYONE does this.

No, everyone does not. And if everyone did, then everyone would be committing a logical fallacy. So even if everyone did it, it would still be moronic.

You're getting testy again.

Why, because I am disagreeing with you? Look, there are just some things that one cannot sugar-coat. This is one of them. Actually, I think I was being kind by jovially dealing with the issue instead of pointing to the gravity of your method.

God does not take well to His word being perverted. It really shows a fundamental lack of respect for God’s word to interpret it in such a haphazard manner. Such a method not only betrays a lack of studiousness but also flies in the face of the common sense.

Furthermore, it really is a slap in the face of those who spend countless hours doing anything and everything to correctly understand those ancient words, with the guiding help of the Holy Spirit, so that they might love their God with their heart, soul, mind and strength, and do so with more than just empty words, but holding God’s word in their hearts with all seriousness and respect.

I know of many men and women who study endlessly, diving into the original languages, searching though scholarly material, I know many seekers of truth who spend sleepless nights trying to understand the truth as God has communicated it, not wasting one second on the foolish thought of how they can make it fit their silly notions of how things out to be – I know many godly men and women who have spent hours on their knees asking God to reveal to them the truths in that book so that they can hide it in their hearts and treasure it.
And it offends me more than words can say that you would think that you have the right to interpret the bible frivolously to meet your own ends.

Just in case no one has yet told you.

The bible is not your book.

You do not have the right to change it to fit your desires or to ignore the parts you don’t like.

If you do change it to fit your own desires then you do so to your own detriment. If you teach others to do so, you do so to your own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16).
Don’t think I say such stern warnings joyfully, I desire none of these things for you, but I would be no friend if I let you mislead yourself or others while I stay silent.

You asked me.

Is it worth the grief? God knows, I ask myself that same question.

Maybe you should ask yourself the same question regarding your method of biblical interpretation.

Grace and Peace

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

Lighthouse--I'd disagree. (Maybe not a surprise.) I believed the truth of God by not examining it. I trusted scripture and Christianity without ever questioning it. Unfortunately, the minute you start asking questions, you get into some kind of "danger zone", as far as many Christians are concerned. As though questioning why you believe what you do is somehow beyond the pale.

I have sought God. And I think I have found him. Unfortunately it doesn't seem as though what I found lines up with what I believed before.

You wanna know something weird? I question what I believe, all the time. And I have found myself to be wrong, on many occasions. I have found that the truth does not line up with what I had believed, or what I was taught. I hope you seek the truth, and find it, instead of just walking away from Christ, altogether.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

Here's where I'm at.

1) someone can have a "genuine"--to them--experience, live a Christian life, talk the walk...and still wind up in hell (remember, miracles, exorcisms, and carrying Christ's name does not promise he'll "know" you when you die)

No, they don't. But an intimate relationship with Him gaurantees your place in His Body.

2) which means it can happen to anyone, so there's no guarantee for any Christian who stays in the church or not

It can't happen to anyone. It only happens to those whose faith is inot in Christ, but in fallacy.

3) so, it's essentially a crap shoot, from a Christian's perspective

Not from mine, it isn't.

4) or you can leave the church, meaning your experience was somehow not "genuine," despite everything you believed at the time

That depends on what you;re leaving. Are you leaving the "church," the religion, or Christ?

5) which leads to my second point

No it doesn't. See my response to your second point.

 

[Lighthouse]

Okay, I have some more points to make.

1] Miracles don't mean squat. They don't influence faith in any way, shape or form. Think about it. If you already have faith in God, then a miracle is not going to make it any stronger. And if you don't have faith in God, and a miracle makes you believe, that is not faith...it is only belief. And even the demons believe.
2] I do not fear hell. And I never have. I do not fear the torment. If I did fear hell, it would be the eternal absence from my loving Heavenly father that would scare me. But I know I have nothing to fear, for He is with me. And I am His.

 

[avatar382]

Granite:

Good luck on your journey. I remember when I lost my faith, it felt like it was torn from me. I WANTED to believe so bad, yet the more I wanted to find what I wanted to hear and the more I searched, the further away I found myself from Christianity. It was an exceptionally difficult time for me - I had to wrestle with my own self all while putting forth an image of being a good little Christian for my zealous family and Church community.

Regardless of the diffcult times, after I got through it all, it felt incredibly refreshing to be free of dogma and religion. Like others have already expressed, my life feels so much more precious now than it ever did when I was a Christian.

Anyway, here is a story I read a while ago on iidb (internet infidels discussion forum) that really touched me because it seemed so much like my own struggle. It's the testimony (or anti-testimony, if you will) of a fundamentalist Christian woman who did everything right - yet had her faith torn from her much like happened to me. You might enjoy it or be touched by it like I was: Here is the link -
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=72552

 

[PureX]

Originally posted by cattyfan You are one who is always seeking proof. where is yours?

I'm not seeking proof about God - never have been. I'm the one who's always saying that human beings are not capable of comprehending such thing.

I'm not looking for proof, I'm just looking for what works.

Originally posted by cattyfan Also, what about the example I gave.

All he said was "go and sin no more". I don't think Jesus was passing judgment on her, I think he was simply telling her to stop doing things that were harmful to her and to others. In fact, the whole point of the story was that we should not be passing judgment on other people when we are flawed in our own minds and hearts.

 

[PureX]

Originally posted by brother Willi by "edited" do you mean in the Bible, or in their hearts?

Both.

People see what they expect to see, and understand things according to their own paradigms. A "believer" reads scripture, and in his mind and heart he is certain that the words reflect his own beliefs. So if he should be asked to translate them, or edit these scriptures, he will do so according to his own understanding of what he sees. And his translation will end up representing not the actual meaning of the authors text, but the translator's understanding of what he thinks the author meant. And this is how through countless retellings and copies and translations by countless people over the centuries, the gospels have come to represent more what the "believers" believed they meant than what they actually said, or from whatever actually happened.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by granite1010

Right. If the foundation of your faith is fear of torture, that's going to be reflected in everything you do. Sugar coating Christianity does not change what it basically is: control. The hook.

If you have a problem with your church, then find another one, or just stop going. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I noticed a couple weeks ago you made a comment about getting a divorce. If you don't mind my asking, does that have anything to do with this?

 

[PureX]

Originally posted by BChristianK Cmon! Purex, ya can't just say all the stuff you like is legit and everything else is an addition!

Of course I can. Though it's not so much what I "like" as what I experience as making my life and my person better.

Do you really think you AREN'T picking and choosing just because you picked the bible and chose to accept it whole? C'mon, you're lots smarter then that, too. We're ALL picking what we think is true and choosing to live by it for as long as it "works" for us according to our criteria for what works successfully. For those whos criteria for success is being absolutely right all the time, they will pick an absolutist dogma and choose to defend it to the death. For those whos criteria for success is whatever is easy and feels good, they'll pick whatever religion or ideology will justify and promote doing just that and they'll choose to follow it because it defines what "works" in the terms that they believe are true. People who pick love and choose to follow that phenomena rather than a religious book do so because that's what represents a successful life for them.

Only a self-centered fool actually thinks he really has the "truth" and that everyone else's choices are lies and illusions. We're ALL picking and choosing what looks like the truth, to us. As we should. And you're no different than anyone else.

Originally posted by BChristianK You of all people should now that this is just dumb. This is a textual critical method for morons. You can't read any book this way and sound like a rational human being.

Everyone reads every book this way. The only criteria we have for choosing what's true is our own selves - our own lives, our own personalities and our own experiences.

Originally posted by BChristianK I'll tell you what, from now on, I'll conclude that the parts of your and wickwoman's posts that I like are from you, and the parts I don't agree with were written by secret agents who broke into your homes and used your computers to add stuff.

You're missing the point. We don't CARE who wrote what or who really said what. All we care about is the value of what's in front of us. It's ALL heresay, it's all fiction to us, now days. And we're all "picking and choosing" it's value according to our own criteria. It would be irrational to do anything else.

 

[Lighthouse]

OEJ-
Thank you for asking the question I was afraid to.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Originally posted by granite1010

"I would truly suggest you go out to some lonely place... ALONE, some place where its just you and God, or the void or whatever is out there. Take a couple of hours, long enough to get rid of all the garbage that usually attacks our brains... and listen."

Been there. Done that. Tried a lot. And the conclusion I'm coming back with is that he may be there...but he is silent.

Originally posted by avatar382
Granite:
Good luck on your journey. I remember when I lost my faith, it felt like it was torn from me. I WANTED to believe so bad, yet the more I wanted to find what I wanted to hear and the more I searched, the further away I found myself from Christianity. It was an exceptionally difficult time for me..

I went from devout Catholic (rosary and Mass every day and was talking to a Carmelite prior about joining the order) to increasingly doubting, and then whatever faith I thought I had collapsed. Over and over I begged God from my heart to reveal himself to me. Got nothing. Eventually I concluded that Christianity was more beautiful than true, and since prayer is getting me knowhere, I'd better stop talking to myself like a naive headcase.

Difficult, you say? Y'mean painful? I remember getting up morning after morning, and during the day adjusting myself to the reality of living in a Godless world. I became a fully convinced atheist, and Sartre was my intellectual hero. I despised and mocked that pious figment named Jesus whom I had outgrown, and explicitly rejected the Christian faith.

Three years passed. And one day I was in the Borders bookstore in Rockville, Md., looking through a Bible. I had thrown mine away years before and was considering buying another copy as edifying literature--no theology. But as I looked through it I realized that there's no way to take it seriously apart from faith. And I knew that I had none. I thought then, right there, "Gee, I've always wanted to be consistent, but like this?" But I had the fixed and settled belief that there was no way to believe in God. So I left the Bible on the shelf and that was that.

There was another shoe getting ready to drop and I didn't see it coming. Because about 2 weeks later I was sitting in a chair in the living room and I KNEW--that Jesus loved me. I will never forget that moment. My very next thought was, "Now don't get carried away" and it was already too late. The train has left the station, you might say.

It is the sheer goodness and love of God that makes a ruin of unbelief. I got into apologetics later, to integrate what had happened into the logical part of me. But it's the love that does it. Jesus is so good and so loving--since that day in 1999, not one day has passed without him. I am still learning what loving him means--I cannot praise him enough.

I say all this to you two so that you won't be so sure that where you are now is where you'll always be. I suppose you could say the same thing about where I am now. We'll see.

 

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by PureX

Both.

People see what they expect to see, and understand things according to their own paradigms. A "believer" reads scripture, and in his mind and heart he is certain that the words reflect his own beliefs. So if he should be asked to translate them, or edit these scriptures, he will do so according to his own understanding of what he sees. And his translation will end up representing not the actual meaning of the authors text, but the translator's understanding of what he thinks the author meant. And this is how through countless retellings and copies and translations by countless people over the centuries, the gospels have come to represent more what the "believers" believed they meant than what they actually said, or from whatever actually happened.

but do not you and i, along with some others here see the same meaning of the Word

 

[PureX]

Originally posted by brother Willi but do not you and i, along with some others here see the same meaning of the Word

No. And it's not about the meaning of the words anyway - it's about the value of the ideas that those words represent in our minds as we're reading them.

 

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by PureX

No. And it's not about the meaning of the words anyway - it's about the value of the ideas that those words represent in our minds as we're reading them.

is it about learning how to live at peace with each other?