My name is Park, and I am a Christian looking for advice

Park

New member
I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

My favorite chapter in the Bible is Romans 9, in which the Apostle Paul showcases the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of His people and the reprobation of those who are not. Here is the entire chapter in full:

Romans 9 (New American Standard Bible)

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.” 10 And not only that, but there was also Rebekah, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I show compassion.” 16 So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I raised you up, in order to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles, 25 as He also says in Hosea:

“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’
And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”
26 “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel may be like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly.” 29 And just as Isaiah foretold:

“If the Lord of armies had not left us descendants,
We would have become like Sodom, and would have been like Gomorrah.”
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; 31 however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though they could by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written:

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense,
And the one who believes in Him will not be put to shame.”


I believe that there is ONE message (the gospel, "good news") from God that reveals that Jesus Christ died for His people, according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, and that He arose from the dead, according to the Scriptures, for the justification of His people.

I am a member of East Hill Baptist Church in Tallahassee, Florida, USA. My wife (Li) (since 11/2/85) is also a member there and loves it. I don't. I believe that a false gospel is preached there. This is a major source of spiritual unrest that I currently experience. Any suggestions you have regarding how to work through this situation would be greatly appreciated.

I am 65 years old (Born in Tallahassee on 2/27/56) and have worked as an accountant for the Florida Department of Revenue since 2/22/88). I will be retiring at the end of this July. Needless to say, I am very happy about this!

I have two children (Kenny and Bethany) and one grandson (Charlie). Li and I have one dog, a Cocker Spaniel named Truffles.

My father (Paul) passed away at age 93 on 12/4/19. My mother (Shirley) is 85 and lives in Tallahassee. I call her almost every day. We call her "Techno Granny" because she knows how to get around on her smart phone and on her computer.

I have one brother (Perry) who also lives in Tallahassee.

I enjoy reading and communicating with others on Facebook.

Two theological websites that I especially like are: www.godsonlygospel.com and www.gospeldefense.com

I'm looking forward to hearing from you if you have any words of wisdom for me.








I
 

Jefferson

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Why do you think the church you are a member of is teaching a false gospel? What do they teach that you disagree with so strongly?
 

Park

New member
Christ did die for all people, not just the Jews, but that does not mean that all people will be saved.

Was that your question?
I believe that Christ atoned only for those people from every tribe, nation, language group (see Revelation 5:9) chosen by God the Father for salvation before time began.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I believe that Christ atoned only for those people from every tribe, nation, language group (see Revelation 5:9) chosen by God the Father for salvation before time began.
Have you talked to your pastor about your disagreement?
I went to a church for many years that preached what you believe—I disagreed with my pastor then and I still do. But I loved that pastor. I still do. My son still attends there.
I left to avoid being a force of division, but the pastor has invited me back on several occasions.
I believe the disagreement you’re facing stems from a misunderstanding of the nature of God and time—that you both believe every bit of the future is settled, and that God either knows what that future is (your pastor) or that God actually creates every aspect of that future (you). I think you’re both incorrect.
if what I’m saying fits your situation, then it’s possible this site could be helpful to you. But you might have to give up some of your own beliefs, and leave your pastor’s beliefs to him, to stay in your church. Hopefully, though, you can talk to your pastor about it.
The most important thing we can do is to submit our beliefs to the control of the Holy Spirit, to mould and shape as He sees fit.
 

Idolater

Well-known member
...I am a member of East Hill Baptist Church in Tallahassee, Florida, USA. My wife...is also a member there and loves it. I don't. I believe that a false gospel is preached there. This is a major source of spiritual unrest that I currently experience. Any suggestions you have regarding how to work through this situation would be greatly appreciated.
You should be Catholic. Go to Mass.

Hi.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
I believe that Christ atoned only for those people from every tribe, nation, language group (see Revelation 5:9) chosen by God the Father for salvation before time began.

I see. You're pretty much a Calvinist. There are a few of you guys over in the Religion section. Have fun.
 
Last edited:

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

My favorite chapter in the Bible is Romans 9, in which the Apostle Paul showcases the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of His people and the reprobation of those who are not. Here is the entire chapter in full:

Romans 9 (New American Standard Bible)

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.” 10 And not only that, but there was also Rebekah, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I show compassion.” 16 So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I raised you up, in order to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles, 25 as He also says in Hosea:

“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’
And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”
26 “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel may be like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly.” 29 And just as Isaiah foretold:

“If the Lord of armies had not left us descendants,
We would have become like Sodom, and would have been like Gomorrah.”
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; 31 however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though they could by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written:

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense,
And the one who believes in Him will not be put to shame.”


I believe that there is ONE message (the gospel, "good news") from God that reveals that Jesus Christ died for His people, according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, and that He arose from the dead, according to the Scriptures, for the justification of His people.

I am a member of East Hill Baptist Church in Tallahassee, Florida, USA. My wife (Li) (since 11/2/85) is also a member there and loves it. I don't. I believe that a false gospel is preached there. This is a major source of spiritual unrest that I currently experience. Any suggestions you have regarding how to work through this situation would be greatly appreciated.

I am 65 years old (Born in Tallahassee on 2/27/56) and have worked as an accountant for the Florida Department of Revenue since 2/22/88). I will be retiring at the end of this July. Needless to say, I am very happy about this!

I have two children (Kenny and Bethany) and one grandson (Charlie). Li and I have one dog, a Cocker Spaniel named Truffles.

My father (Paul) passed away at age 93 on 12/4/19. My mother (Shirley) is 85 and lives in Tallahassee. I call her almost every day. We call her "Techno Granny" because she knows how to get around on her smart phone and on her computer.

I have one brother (Perry) who also lives in Tallahassee.

I enjoy reading and communicating with others on Facebook.

Two theological websites that I especially like are: www.godsonlygospel.com and www.gospeldefense.com

I'm looking forward to hearing from you if you have any words of wisdom for me.








I
Greetings and welcome to TheologyOnline!

I think I can prove that your understanding of Romans 9 is entirely wrong and that, in fact, you do not get your doctrine from Romans 9 at all but rather bring your doctrine to that text and interpret it through the lens of Calvinist dogma. The reality is that Romans 9 is perhaps the strongest chapter in the bible AGAINST Calvinistic predestination.

The following is an argument I made in a One on One debate back in 2005. I invite you to read it and look forward to your response...

Okay let's get this thing rolling.
I thought I'd start by simply posting my take on the chapter. I thought to take it verse by verse but then I realized that would be entirely too lengthy and not really necessary, especially for the opening post so I decided just to clearly communicate the way I think the text should be taken without going into that much meticulous detail.

Before I do that though let me say first that I think that the Bible interprets itself and must be taken as a whole but that I also believe that individual passages of Scripture must stand on their own without being logically incoherent. In other words, we are able to determine what a passage of Scripture is saying based solely on the context of the passage itself. We do not need a theological system in place before it is possible to figure out what a section of Scripture is saying. Now, there could be, I suppose, exceptions to this general rule but Romans chapter 9 is certainly not one of them. I'm saying this at the outset because I want to draw attention to the fact that I do not draw upon any theology to interpret this chapter but only upon other Bible passages which the text of Romans 9 makes reference too, all of which couldn't be any clearer and easy to understand than they are. I also bring this up now because I think that this will become important as the conversation goes on because I do not think that the Calvinist take on this chapter makes any logical sense whatsoever. Paul would have to be nearly schizophrenic to write what Calvinists generally say that he wrote in this passage. Perhaps Mr. Coffee will surprise me.

Now, with that in mind, let's get to it...

The ninth chapter of Romans is speaking about the cutting off of Israel. It is quite clear that Paul is making a case that God cut off Israel and turned instead to the gentiles, and that God is justified in having done so. It will become equally clear that this is ALL that the chapter is about, and that it has nothing to do with predestination at all.

It helps to see it if one looks at the introduction and summation of the chapter. In the first few verses it is clear that Paul is speaking of Israel and that he is upset by their condition of unbelief...

Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my *countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.​

And then in the last few verses Paul sums up the point of what he's just been saying in the previous several verses...

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law *of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, *by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:​
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,​
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."​

Now, that by itself is probably enough to make it clear what Paul is talking about, but what really nails it down is his reference in the body of the chapter to a couple of Old Testament passages, those being Jacob and Esau and then the Potter and the clay story.
It's always a good idea to read any Old Testament passage that is quoted or made reference to in the New Testament, in order to maintain the context of what's being said. (Remember the whole "Bible interpreting the Bible" thing.) So let's take a look at them so that we can be on the same page that Paul was on when he made these references. Doing so will undoubtedly shed additional light on the point he was making.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."​

This is a direct quote from Malachi 1:2-3 but even the Malachi passage is not referencing the two boys themselves but the nations which came from them. I won't bother quoting it here but even a surface reading of Malachi 1 will confirm that it is talking about a nation not a person.
Likewise, Paul is talking also about a nation. We can tell this for certain because of what is quoted just before in verse 12...

Romans 9:12 "it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger.""​

This is a direct quote from Genesis chapter 25 where it says explicitly that there are two nations in Rebecca's womb...

Genesis 25:23 "And the LORD said to her: "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger."​

Additionally, even if it didn't explicitly state that it's talking about two nations we could still know for certain that it is anyway because Esau (the older) never served Jacob (the younger). That did not happen, ever.

This passage is very clearly talking about nations and about how God deals with nations not about individuals or how God deals with individuals and Paul by referencing this material was making the exact same point. That's the reason why he referenced it.

Now let's move on to the Potter and the clay story. It is on the same topic and is found in Jeremiah chapter 18...

Jeremiah 18:1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause you to hear My words." 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.​
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.​

Okay, that couldn't be any clearer! Jeremiah was making the very point that Paul is making! No wonder Paul referenced this passage, it applies directly to the subject he was dealing with! It IS the subject he was dealing with! Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are making the exact same point; they both use the same analogy for the same reasons. For all intent and purposes Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are the exact same chapter! The only difference is that in Romans 9 Paul is saying that the principle described in Jeremiah 18 has been carried out by God on the nation of Israel.

Romans 9 is not about predestination at all. Paul didn't start talking about Israel and then suddenly change the subject to predestination and then just as suddenly change the subject back again to Israel. The whole chapter is on one issue and one issue only. That issue being God's absolute right to change His mind concerning His blessing of a nation that had done evil in His sight.
It's no more complicated than that. In a nutshell, Paul was simply saying that Israel's promised kingdom wasn't coming because they had rejected the King and Romans 9 is all about how God was justified in having changed His mind about giving them that kingdom. That's all it's about; nothing more, nothing less.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
I believe that Christ atoned only for those people from every tribe, nation, language group (see Revelation 5:9) chosen by God the Father for salvation before time began.
I do not see this as "before time began."

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

πᾶς (pas)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 3956: All, the whole, every kind of. Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole.
 
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