Moon Landing Hoax

CabinetMaker

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No, but I can tell the difference between a round one and a pear shaped one.

If you can't tell the difference between 12" and 12.1" then you can't see the pear shape of the Earth because the difference in dimensions is on the order of 0.1" when scaled. The shape exists but the differences in the radii is so small it can only be measured, not observed.

Overstating his comment does not serve your purpose as it comes across as a lie on your part.
 

Nazaroo

New member
If you look at a pear from the bottom, what shape do you see?

2412040D00000578-2875564-It_s_all_gone_pear_shaped_for_Kim_Kardashian-a-2_1418718551780.jpg
 

Daniel1611

New member
If you can't tell the difference between 12" and 12.1" then you can't see the pear shape of the Earth because the difference in dimensions is on the order of 0.1" when scaled. The shape exists but the differences in the radii is so small it can only be measured, not observed.

Overstating his comment does not serve your purpose as it comes across as a lie on your part.

Regardless...they just figured this out? Really?

Now they're just throwing BS at you so they can laugh when you continue to swallow it.
 

CabinetMaker

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Regardless...they just figured this out? Really?

Now they're just throwing BS at you so they can laugh when you continue to swallow it.

That the Earth is an ellipsoid has long been known. But the difference in the pole to pole diameter versus the equatorial diameter is only about 1/300 of the radius. The human eye cannot see the small of a difference. But it exists.
 

Daniel1611

New member
That the Earth is an ellipsoid has long been known. But the difference in the pole to pole diameter versus the equatorial diameter is only about 1/300 of the radius. The human eye cannot see the small of a difference. But it exists.

Globular and heliocebtric measurements change all the time because they don't know. The sun started out 3 million miles away, now it's 93 million miles away. Now the size and shape of earth has changed.
 

CabinetMaker

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Globular and heliocebtric measurements change all the time because they don't know. The sun started out 3 million miles away, now it's 93 million miles away. Now the size and shape of earth has changed.

That is the nature of discovery and investigation. Our tools get better and more prcise so we can make better and more precise measurements. The shape of the Earth has never changed, our ability to measure it has changed, it got better.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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From the point of view of an observer on Earth, how could such a person tell the difference between the stopping in its orbit of Earth or the Earth adjusting its spin such that the same side of the planet was facing the sun as the Earth continued in its orbit.
This view denies the verbal plenary inspiration of the Bible.

The passage from Joshua was quite clear in that a man commanded the sun to stand still and it obeyed. To read more into the passage, as if it is all about relative perception, phenomenology, etc. goes beyond the explicitness of the biblical account. We have no warrant to thrust an allegorical interpretation on the passage. We have no liberty in the Joshua account to assume the Bible merely accommodated its language to the misconception of the one/s telling or reading the account.

The miracle described in Joshua is not a matter of mere observation for his command was instrumental to the miracle—the sun historically, in the time-space continuum, literally stood still. Everyday phenomonological language is to be accepted in the Bible only where it can be proven by internal markers in the text, not from quasi-scientific considerations being imposed on the text.

As I have implied in an earlier post, if one adopts a phenomologcal view, some literary markers would be necessary to conclude that this was just how it appeared and not rather what actually happened. Even then, however, interpreting cosmological phenomena in Scripture requires an understanding of biblical cosmology. The fact is that the Bible everywhere presents the sun in motion relative to the earth. And it is also a fact that science truly so called allows various geocentric functions, e.g., navigation. Hence there is no reason for interpreting the biblical text in a figurative or less than literal manner. Special revelation requires us to understand that the sun literally stood still and general revelation really offers no voice of criticism to it.

Now the less informed on matters of interpretation of the Bible might claim, "But doesn't historical writing have to make sense to the original audience as well? Could this not have been an instance of what appeared to have happened as would have been understood by those at the time?" To this I reply that this requires accommodation to mistaken conceptions, which is liberal accommodation. Think of the consequences if this possibility was actually entertained. The liberals would have all the justification they need for explaining away the miraculous in the Bible since everyone to whom the Bible was written thought in terms of the miraculous.

The miracle described in Joshua 10 was an actual event rather than something the people "apparently" witnessed. The Bible declared what (the sun) stood still and we have no exegetical warrant to deny it. Joshua's prayer is instrumental in the miracle. "And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel."

To cast doubt on the factuality of the prayer or the event is to cast doubt on the miracle. To cast doubt on the narration of these is to cast doubt on the plenary inspiration of the Bible.

What is a miracle? If we define it as a work which transcends the ordinary operations of providence then it is obvious that one must have a correct view of "nature" in order to know when a miracle has taken place. If the biblical writers/readers were mistaken as to the way the world works then there is no way of knowing that something over and above the ordinary course of providence has taken place. Let's be confident God is wise enough to know that if He accommodated errors of "perception" there would be no way for believers to know when He was telling truth and when He was accommodating error, to the point there could be no certainty about any fact.

The cosmology of biblical revelation as a whole can only be understood as geocentric. There is no necessity to re-evaluate or reformulate biblical revelation in the light of hypotheses which themselves are undergoing continual re-evaluation and reformulation. There is no need to attempt to alter the Bible to make it look credible in the eyes of the scientific community. There are pertinent philosophical considerations which limit the scope of empirical science, and allow us to hold to the biblical view even when it conflicts with the observations of men. Our aim should always be to let the Bible speak for itself, and to accept its message regardless of how it is judged by others.

Holy Writ explicitly says the sun stood still, yet for some reason a believer is considered laughable for believing what the Bible clearly states. In Matthew 1:25 we read, "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

Both Joshua 10:13 and Matthew 1:25 are narratives describing what actually happened. Both are described as events which took place by means of divine power working in an extraordinary way. Now why should the one statement require qualification and not the other? Gibeon provides the location from Joshua's standpoint while heaven provides the reference point as to the cessation of motion. The text states that the miracle consisted not only in the sun standing still, but in the sun standing still in response to a man's command and that the Lord hearkened to the man.

If the sun did not actually stand still one must wonder wherein the miracle consisted. One must stretch the primae facie meaning of the text to limit the frame of reference to Gibeon, and thereby suppose the miracle takes place entirely in the phenomenological realm; and I would ask why any exegete is motivated to do this. There is nothing in the text to constrain it. There is nothing in the Scriptures themselves which suggest an alternate viewpoint. From where does the alternate viewpoint arise which constrains this exegesis? I have great difficulty conceiving of a miracle which only takes place on a phenomenological level. If the "natural" is merely one of appearance, then the "supernatural" is merely above and beyond the appearance. To make sense of the creation, narrative phenomena, poetical descriptions, prophetic utterances, one must begin with geocentrism as more than merely focusing attention on the earth.

There is only one reality; that is the one God created and reveals to us. Within this one reality there are diverse relationships, and these diversities are complicated by the fall. Christians in general accept that sinful human beings with all their follies are permitted to exercise dominion in this world under a restraining and forbearing Providence, and that this is subservient to the higher redemptive purpose whereby God saves, gathers, and builds up His elect in the world. This worldview should allow us to work in the world and to accredit "scientific observation" according to a temporal perspective without granting ultimate epistemic validity to a fallen worldview.

The facts are that there is no shift between (1)Joshua's prayer, (2) God's answer to the prayer, and (3) the inspired narrator's statement of fact. From each and every perspective, the sun stood still. In a fight between the text and the interpreter the text wins every time and those that oppose the text must concede.

AMR
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
This view denies the verbal plenary inspiration of the Bible.

The passage from Joshua was quite clear in that a man commanded the sun to stand still and it obeyed. To read more into the passage, as if it is all about relative perception, phenomenology, etc. goes beyond the explicitness of the biblical account. We have no warrant to thrust an allegorical interpretation on the passage. We have no liberty in the Joshua account to assume the Bible merely accommodated its language to the misconception of the one/s telling or reading the account.

The miracle described in Joshua is not a matter of mere observation for his command was instrumental to the miracle—the sun historically, in the time-space continuum, literally stood still. Everyday phenomonological language is to be accepted in the Bible only where it can be proven by internal markers in the text, not from quasi-scientific considerations being imposed on the text.

As I have implied in an earlier post, if one adopts a phenomologcal view, some literary markers would be necessary to conclude that this was just how it appeared and not rather what actually happened. Even then, however, interpreting cosmological phenomena in Scripture requires an understanding of biblical cosmology. The fact is that the Bible everywhere presents the sun in motion relative to the earth. And it is also a fact that science truly so called allows various geocentric functions, e.g., navigation. Hence there is no reason for interpreting the biblical text in a figurative or less than literal manner. Special revelation requires us to understand that the sun literally stood still and general revelation really offers no voice of criticism to it.

Now the less informed on matters of interpretation of the Bible might claim, "But doesn't historical writing have to make sense to the original audience as well? Could this not have been an instance of what appeared to have happened as would have been understood by those at the time?" To this I reply that this requires accommodation to mistaken conceptions, which is liberal accommodation. Think of the consequences if this possibility was actually entertained. The liberals would have all the justification they need for explaining away the miraculous in the Bible since everyone to whom the Bible was written thought in terms of the miraculous.

The miracle described in Joshua 10 was an actual event rather than something the people "apparently" witnessed. The Bible declared what (the sun) stood still and we have no exegetical warrant to deny it. Joshua's prayer is instrumental in the miracle. "And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel."

To cast doubt on the factuality of the prayer or the event is to cast doubt on the miracle. To cast doubt on the narration of these is to cast doubt on the plenary inspiration of the Bible.

What is a miracle? If we define it as a work which transcends the ordinary operations of providence then it is obvious that one must have a correct view of "nature" in order to know when a miracle has taken place. If the biblical writers/readers were mistaken as to the way the world works then there is no way of knowing that something over and above the ordinary course of providence has taken place. Let's be confident God is wise enough to know that if He accommodated errors of "perception" there would be no way for believers to know when He was telling truth and when He was accommodating error, to the point there could be no certainty about any fact.

The cosmology of biblical revelation as a whole can only be understood as geocentric. There is no necessity to re-evaluate or reformulate biblical revelation in the light of hypotheses which themselves are undergoing continual re-evaluation and reformulation. There is no need to attempt to alter the Bible to make it look credible in the eyes of the scientific community. There are pertinent philosophical considerations which limit the scope of empirical science, and allow us to hold to the biblical view even when it conflicts with the observations of men. Our aim should always be to let the Bible speak for itself, and to accept its message regardless of how it is judged by others.

Holy Writ explicitly says the sun stood still, yet for some reason a believer is considered laughable for believing what the Bible clearly states. In Matthew 1:25 we read, "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

Both Joshua 10:13 and Matthew 1:25 are narratives describing what actually happened. Both are described as events which took place by means of divine power working in an extraordinary way. Now why should the one statement require qualification and not the other? Gibeon provides the location from Joshua's standpoint while heaven provides the reference point as to the cessation of motion. The text states that the miracle consisted not only in the sun standing still, but in the sun standing still in response to a man's command and that the Lord hearkened to the man.

If the sun did not actually stand still one must wonder wherein the miracle consisted. One must stretch the primae facie meaning of the text to limit the frame of reference to Gibeon, and thereby suppose the miracle takes place entirely in the phenomenological realm; and I would ask why any exegete is motivated to do this. There is nothing in the text to constrain it. There is nothing in the Scriptures themselves which suggest an alternate viewpoint. From where does the alternate viewpoint arise which constrains this exegesis? I have great difficulty conceiving of a miracle which only takes place on a phenomenological level. If the "natural" is merely one of appearance, then the "supernatural" is merely above and beyond the appearance. To make sense of the creation, narrative phenomena, poetical descriptions, prophetic utterances, one must begin with geocentrism as more than merely focusing attention on the earth.

There is only one reality; that is the one God created and reveals to us. Within this one reality there are diverse relationships, and these diversities are complicated by the fall. Christians in general accept that sinful human beings with all their follies are permitted to exercise dominion in this world under a restraining and forbearing Providence, and that this is subservient to the higher redemptive purpose whereby God saves, gathers, and builds up His elect in the world. This worldview should allow us to work in the world and to accredit "scientific observation" according to a temporal perspective without granting ultimate epistemic validity to a fallen worldview.

The facts are that there is no shift between (1)Joshua's prayer, (2) God's answer to the prayer, and (3) the inspired narrator's statement of fact. From each and every perspective, the sun stood still. In a fight between the text and the interpreter the text wins every time and those that oppose the text must concede.

AMR

The point of observation, not the mechanics, of the miracle are what is important. I note that you concede this point when you point out that perspective plays a part in observing the miracle. When he told the sun to stand still, it did. Does it matter whether the Earth stopped or the sun stopped? Not at all. The relative motion stopped and the sun stayed in the same place in the sky. Is it any less miraculous for the Earth to adjust its rotation so that the same side faces the sun for three days? Not it my mind.

I also note that you, and others, have complete ignored my post regarding the orbit of Mars in a geocentric model. Why?

I have long believed that we were created in the image of God. Being created in His image is why we are so inquisitive and creative. I think that those are attributes of God that He passed onto us, His created beings. As we explorer the world and now the solar system around us, we learn more about how God may have accomplished His miracle of creation. Science does not threaten faith unless ones faith is VERY week. We look at the solar system and discover that a heliocentric model is much more elegant than a geocentric model. The math works better, the orbit of Mars is perfectly explained and that is God revealed in His creation.

There is no fight between text and interpretation here. They harmonize perfectly in a heliocentric model.
 

Daniel1611

New member
maybe this has been covered, but if the earth and planets are flat, how come they're round?

Earth can be flat and round, like a disc. The other planets may not be terraformed earth like planets. They're lights in the sky as far as we can tell with the telescopes we can buy. Maybe they're just similar to stars.
 

Tyrathca

New member
Earth can be flat and round, like a disc. The other planets may not be terraformed earth like planets. They're lights in the sky as far as we can tell with the telescopes we can buy. Maybe they're just similar to stars.

But if it is like a disc then shouldn't it have an edge? (I'm assuming your not proposing any exotic hypercurved space physics) how come you can circumnavigate the world?

This just gets dumber and dumber... Quite amusing actually!
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Earth can be flat and round, like a disc. The other planets may not be terraformed earth like planets. They're lights in the sky as far as we can tell with the telescopes we can buy. Maybe they're just similar to stars.
The biggest problem with a flat Earth model is Magellan. How was it possible for him to circumnavigate the world if it is a disk? If the world is a disk, how is it possible for a plane to leave LA traveling west and a plane leaving NY traveling east to meet someplace over the Far East?

2Q==
 

Daniel1611

New member
The biggest problem with a flat Earth model is Magellan. How was it possible for him to circumnavigate the world if it is a disk? If the world is a disk, how is it possible for a plane to leave LA traveling west and a plane leaving NY traveling east to meet someplace over the Far East?

2Q==

You would be circumnavigating in a circle. Very possible.
 

Daniel1611

New member
But if it is like a disc then shouldn't it have an edge? (I'm assuming your not proposing any exotic hypercurved space physics) how come you can circumnavigate the world?

This just gets dumber and dumber... Quite amusing actually!

Antarctica would actually be 360 degrees around earth. Whether there is anything beyond the ice is up for debate.
 

Daniel1611

New member
No, you wouldn't. You would go off one side of the disk and magically appear on the other side. How does that work?
9261.jpg

2Q==

It would be exactly the same as going around a globe. You're just going around something flat.

That map isn't a flat earth model that I have seen.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
It would be exactly the same as going around a globe. You're just going around something flat.

That map isn't a flat earth model that I have seen.
Its an accurate representation of the contents and oceans.

Both poles have been overflown, how come nobody has seen the edge of a flat disk when flying over the south pole? If I fly in a straight line, can I fly off the edge of the disk? If not, why not?
 
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