Miracles, healings of God, or of Satan

GregoryN

New member
This week i've been looking into this Melbourne, Australia lady's healing ministry that has been compared to that of Kathryn Kuhlman:

"And pretty much every town I go into one of the first miracles he does is someone with a completely deaf ear gets their ear open." http://www.sid-roth.net/2017/01/03/our-guest-katherine-ruonala-3/

"Katherine Ruonala has been ministering prophetically for the last 16 years and her ministry has been compared to that of Kathryn Kuhlman. She studied Smith Wigglesworth, John Lake, and watched Kathryn Kuhlman videos as they all moved in the baptism of Holy Spirit with fire. Katherine pressed in to God for His Holy Spirit and as she did, there were times when she was on the floor, unable to get up, and experiencing visions of what God had planned for her. She says that the key to miracles is understanding God’s love for us. Our faith grows when we understand the Father’s love and realize that He wants the best for us. “Faith works by love, and miracles will spring forth immeasurably from a life unlocked by this love,” shares Katherine."http://www1.cbn.com/video/SUV30_KatherineRuonala_061518/god-works-through-miracles

Some consider her church "cultic":

https://glorygathering.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/glory-city-church-cutting-edge-cultic/

https://churchwatchcentral.com/2015/10/12/australias-glory-clown-katherine-ruonala/

"This video will bring clear biblical understanding of the demonic manifestations of Glory City Church to effectually prove how another "spirit" is at work and being poured out upon many amidst the Charismatic Movement." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqe8REOFNWQ

Would you consider that to be a “church” worth “attending” regularly to promote a healthy Christian life?

Satan can make himself appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). He does this to draw people away from God.

When Moses and Aaron confronted Pharaoh, they performed a miraculous sign to confirm their message from God (Exodus 7:8–10). The magi of Egypt were able to perform the same miracle “by their secret arts” (verse 11). God’s miracle was shown to be greater (verse 12), but the fact is that the magi were able to perform a satanic miracle in the king’s court.

During the tribulation, the Antichrist “will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie” (2 Thessalonians 2:9). These miracles are explicitly said to be empowered by Satan. Jesus warned that the end times will be characterized by the treachery of counterfeit prophets who “will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive” (Matthew 24:24).

The existence of demonic miracles is one reason why we must test all spirits: “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1). Any time we are in doubt, we are to make sure that what is being taught lines up with what Scripture says. If the miracle worker is teaching something contrary to God’s Word, then his miracles, no matter how convincing they seem, are a demonic delusion.

Examples of convincing demonic miracles today are the apparitions of the Virgin Mary in different countries. These appearances of Mary seem legitimate; indeed, they are believed by millions of people. But when we compare what the apparitions say to what Scripture teaches, it is not even close.


https://www.gotquestions.org/demonic-satanic-miracles.html

Can Satan heal:

https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/12/08/can-satan-heal/

https://www.womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=1198

https://askthepastors.wordpress.com/2010/12/11/can-satan-heal-people/

http://www.eternalgod.org/q-a-9291/
 

Robert Pate

New member
This week i've been looking into this Melbourne, Australia lady's healing ministry that has been compared to that of Kathryn Kuhlman:

"And pretty much every town I go into one of the first miracles he does is someone with a completely deaf ear gets their ear open." http://www.sid-roth.net/2017/01/03/our-guest-katherine-ruonala-3/

"Katherine Ruonala has been ministering prophetically for the last 16 years and her ministry has been compared to that of Kathryn Kuhlman. She studied Smith Wigglesworth, John Lake, and watched Kathryn Kuhlman videos as they all moved in the baptism of Holy Spirit with fire. Katherine pressed in to God for His Holy Spirit and as she did, there were times when she was on the floor, unable to get up, and experiencing visions of what God had planned for her. She says that the key to miracles is understanding God’s love for us. Our faith grows when we understand the Father’s love and realize that He wants the best for us. “Faith works by love, and miracles will spring forth immeasurably from a life unlocked by this love,” shares Katherine."http://www1.cbn.com/video/SUV30_KatherineRuonala_061518/god-works-through-miracles

Some consider her church "cultic":

https://glorygathering.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/glory-city-church-cutting-edge-cultic/

https://churchwatchcentral.com/2015/10/12/australias-glory-clown-katherine-ruonala/

"This video will bring clear biblical understanding of the demonic manifestations of Glory City Church to effectually prove how another "spirit" is at work and being poured out upon many amidst the Charismatic Movement." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqe8REOFNWQ

Would you consider that to be a “church” worth “attending” regularly to promote a healthy Christian life?




https://www.gotquestions.org/demonic-satanic-miracles.html

Can Satan heal:

https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/12/08/can-satan-heal/

https://www.womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=1198

https://askthepastors.wordpress.com/2010/12/11/can-satan-heal-people/

http://www.eternalgod.org/q-a-9291/


God is not doing miracles today. The greatest miracle that the world will ever witness is the incarnation of Jesus Christ. God does not want to take away from that.
 

Aaron the Tall

New member
God is not doing miracles today. The greatest miracle that the world will ever witness is the incarnation of Jesus Christ. God does not want to take away from that.

By this logic, why did Jesus do any miracles at all? Wouldn't that take away from his incarnation miracle?

And what about the miracles performed by the disciples? Wouldn't that take away from the incarnation?
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
The Lord Jesus did miracles to confirm that He was Israel's promised Messiah and to give Israel a taste of the powers of the age to come, which was Israel's Davidic Kingdom at hand.
His Apostles did miracles to confirm to Israel that their doctrine was from GOD.
The Apostle Paul did miracles to confirm that his message was from GOD.
The BOC did miracles to confirm to Israel that the nascent Jew/Gentile BOC/Church was from GOD.
The miracles ceased when that which was perfect/complete had come...the NT Scriptures.
Now abideth these three... faith, hope and love.
When the Kingdom to Israel is at hand again, the sign miracles will resume.

The Hebrews writer speaks of 'the powers of the age to come'. If miracles are the powers of an age to come, then they are not powers of this age, but of a future age.


That which is to be believed today is not proven empirically thru miracles, but is to be believed by the testimony of the Scriptures.
 

Aaron the Tall

New member
So, when exactly do you think the perfect came? When the last epistle was written? When everybody had a chance to read the circulating epistles? Or when the canon was affirmed in 397?

If the new testament is the fulfillment of I Cor 13:9-12, do you think that we currently "see face to face" and "know fully" as God knows us?
 

Rosenritter

New member
The Lord Jesus did miracles to confirm that He was Israel's promised Messiah and to give Israel a taste of the powers of the age to come, which was Israel's Davidic Kingdom at hand.
His Apostles did miracles to confirm to Israel that their doctrine was from GOD.
The Apostle Paul did miracles to confirm that his message was from GOD.
The BOC did miracles to confirm to Israel that the nascent Jew/Gentile BOC/Church was from GOD.
The miracles ceased when that which was perfect/complete had come...the NT Scriptures.
Now abideth these three... faith, hope and love.
When the Kingdom to Israel is at hand again, the sign miracles will resume.

The Hebrews writer speaks of 'the powers of the age to come'. If miracles are the powers of an age to come, then they are not powers of this age, but of a future age.

That which is to be believed today is not proven empirically thru miracles, but is to be believed by the testimony of the Scriptures.

So, when I have witnessed a miracle, it wasn't a miracle because ... of what again?
 

Truster

New member
Something is considered being a miracle (sign) when its nature has been changed. Correct me if I'm mistaken in this but I can't think of an instance in scripture where the Eternal Almighty performed a "miricle" using a woman.

The first deceit was perpetrated against a woman. Is there a link in that women are being used and abused in the practice of deception in miracles and all the other associated nonsence today.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Can you demonstrate it empirically?

Does observed by two witnesses count?

Different (related) question: does this (below) count as a miracle that can be demonstrated empirically? Why or why not?

1 Kings 17:6 KJV
(6) And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Does observed by two witnesses count?


Maybe, but typically more than two.

Different (related) question: does this (below) count as a miracle that can be demonstrated empirically? Why or why not?

1 Kings 17:6 KJV
(6) And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook.

This is what I mean:

Act 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Act 4:9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
Act 4:14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.
Act 4:15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves,
Act 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.


Act 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
Act 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.



Undeniable!
 

glorydaz

New member
So, when exactly do you think the perfect came? When the last epistle was written? When everybody had a chance to read the circulating epistles? Or when the canon was affirmed in 397?

If the new testament is the fulfillment of I Cor 13:9-12, do you think that we currently "see face to face" and "know fully" as God knows us?

Good question. Maybe Paul is referring to the sign gifts as "WHEN I was a child", the written word NOW as putting away childish things...through a glass darkly, and THEN face to face as the last perfect part when we see Him in glory.

1 Cor. 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.​
 

Rosenritter

New member
Maybe, but typically more than two.

Two witnesses in agreement of what they saw or heard was considered sufficient to establish testimony in the Old Testament. If only two people were present, does that make the miracle not a miracle?

This is what I mean:
Spoiler


Act 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Act 4:9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
Act 4:14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.
Act 4:15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves,
Act 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.


Act 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
Act 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Undeniable!

Let's be careful not to move the goalposts. You emphatically said that miracles didn't happen any more at all without distinction or disclaimer.

So in my question, were the ravens that brought meat to the prophet in the wilderness (1 Kings 17) any less of a miracle than the fire that descended from heaven to devour the captains and their men later? (2 Kings 1)

And in the case of the ravens, were that to happen to day, can you imagine trying to convince someone like yourself that it was actually a miracle? Or can you imagine that person rationalizing that "that isn't proof, birds can do strange things?" So, speaking plainly, with the hindsight of scripture, were those ravens that fed the prophet a miracle?
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
My original post:

The Lord Jesus did miracles to confirm that He was Israel's promised Messiah and to give Israel a taste of the powers of the age to come, which was Israel's Davidic Kingdom at hand.
His Apostles did miracles to confirm to Israel that their doctrine was from GOD.
The Apostle Paul did miracles to confirm that his message was from GOD.
The BOC did miracles to confirm to Israel that the nascent Jew/Gentile BOC/Church was from GOD.
The miracles ceased when that which was perfect/complete had come...the NT Scriptures.
Now abideth these three... faith, hope and love.
When the Kingdom to Israel is at hand again, the sign miracles will resume.

The Hebrews writer speaks of 'the powers of the age to come'. If miracles are the powers of an age to come, then they are not powers of this age, but of a future age.


That which is to be believed today is not proven empirically thru miracles, but is to be believed by the testimony of the Scriptures.

Two witnesses in agreement of what they saw or heard was considered sufficient to establish testimony in the Old Testament. If only two people were present, does that make the miracle not a miracle?



Let's be careful not to move the goalposts. You emphatically said that miracles didn't happen any more at all without distinction or disclaimer.

I should have been clearer. I was referring to the sign confirmation miracles which were commonplace and undeniable during the Acts period and were based upon Christ's instructions as in Mark 16.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.


Are you doing those things? I'm not... and I don't know anyone who is.

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


Did you see the resurrected Christ after He rose? Did He demonstrate to you personally by 'many infallible proofs' that He was alive after dying on the cross?

Again... today, we are asked to believe the testimony of Scripture with regard to these things, not empirical proofs as demonstrated back then.

If believers today are demonstrating the miraculous as demonstrated in Acts, then... what message are they confirming? That they are Christ? That they are an Apostle? That people need to follow and obey them? Isn't the Anti-Christ supposed to be going to do these things?

Perhaps I could be clearer by a categorization of GOD's supernatural interferences in nature(miracles). The miracles that I have been referring to of which I claim have ceased could be categorized as 'Class A' miracles. The miracle of GOD answering prayer or healing people providentially could be categorized as 'Class B' miracles. The Class B miracles are not on the level of shaping clay, spitting on it and shaping a new eyeball for a man who was blind from birth, or commanding that immediately a withered arm should, before everyone's eyes, be restored and made whole. BTW, the word 'restored' in that verse is related to the word 'restoration' in Acts 3, where Peter speaks of Christ's second coming and 'the restoration of all things as spoken by the prophets since the world began'. Speaking of that time, in Ro 8, Paul refers to the complete restoration of the whole creation and the manifestation of the Sons of GOD in resurrection. Well... that ain't happening right now!
 

Rosenritter

New member
My original post:

I should have been clearer. I was referring to the sign confirmation miracles which were commonplace and undeniable during the Acts period and were based upon Christ's instructions as in Mark 16.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.


Are you doing those things? I'm not... and I don't know anyone who is.

Again... today, we are asked to believe the testimony of Scripture with regard to these things, not empirical proofs as demonstrated back then.

If believers today are demonstrating the miraculous as demonstrated in Acts, then... what message are they confirming? That they are Christ? That they are an Apostle? That people need to follow and obey them? Isn't the Anti-Christ supposed to be going to do these things?

Perhaps I could be clearer by a categorization of GOD's supernatural interferences in nature(miracles). The miracles that I have been referring to of which I claim have ceased could be categorized as 'Class A' miracles. The miracle of GOD answering prayer or healing people providentially could be categorized as 'Class B' miracles. The Class B miracles are not on the level of shaping clay, spitting on it and shaping a new eyeball for a man who was blind from birth, or commanding that immediately a withered arm should, before everyone's eyes, be restored and made whole. BTW, the word 'restored' in that verse is related to the word 'restoration' in Acts 3, where Peter speaks of Christ's second coming and 'the restoration of all things as spoken by the prophets since the world began'. Speaking of that time, in Ro 8, Paul refers to the complete restoration of the whole creation and the manifestation of the Sons of GOD in resurrection. Well... that ain't happening right now!

Thank you for the clarification.

1. I would say that something doesn't sound right with a "class A" and "class B" separation... as if one type was less than another, but I don't have a better term to offer at the moment.

2. Under what classification would you consider exorcism?
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Thank you for the clarification.

1. I would say that something doesn't sound right with a "class A" and "class B" separation... as if one type was less than another, but I don't have a better term to offer at the moment.

2. Under what classification would you consider exorcism?


Class A and Class B are merely my made up device to hopefully help to distinguish between GOD's subtle providential supernatural acts today from GOD's sign miracles of the first century. I don't insist on anyone using that device, but... it helps me and... it has helped others that I've talked with.

Today's 'claimed' exorcisms are(from what I've heard) done with much agonizing, ritual and ceremony.

The sign miracles of the 1st century were done instantly, were complete without relapse and were evident to all... and were done to confirm that the prophesied Davidic earthly reign of Messiah was at hand, to confirm that Jesus was the Messiah and to confirm the other revelations which followed.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Class A and Class B are merely my made up device to hopefully help to distinguish between GOD's subtle providential supernatural acts today from GOD's sign miracles of the first century. I don't insist on anyone using that device, but... it helps me and... it has helped others that I've talked with.

Today's 'claimed' exorcisms are(from what I've heard) done with much agonizing, ritual and ceremony.

The sign miracles of the 1st century were done instantly, were complete without relapse and were evident to all... and were done to confirm that the prophesied Davidic earthly reign of Messiah was at hand, to confirm that Jesus was the Messiah and to confirm the other revelations which followed.

1. Whether there are charlatan-style exorcisms or not was not the point of my question. I do not have personal witness or experience here, but I do not discount reports of such out-of-hand.

2. If you read some of the reports of missionaries you might find some examples of those "class A" miracles.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
1. Whether there are charlatan-style exorcisms or not was not the point of my question. I do not have personal witness or experience here, but I do not discount reports of such out-of-hand.

2. If you read some of the reports of missionaries you might find some examples of those "class A" miracles.

I've read reports, and if they are true, then GOD is making exception in those cases to confirm the gospel of the cross to those who have been isolated from exposure to the message from countless generations.
Still, if true, these events are not commonplace to this age, but testify of the age to come.

If the miracles of the 1st century are commonplace today, why do countless saints suffer as paraplegics, etc, all of their lives. Why would GOD only single out certain ones in far off lands for these blessings if He means for all to have them today?
Peter and the eleven healed all in Acts 5 and that assembly held all things in common and no one lacked.
Is that what we see today? If GOD intends for all believers to do these miracles then why are we not emptying the hospitals? True healing will happen in the resurrection. Death of the body is still 'one a piece' today. Why did Paul glory in his infirmities? Why did GOD not heal him? Why did Paul leave Trophimus at Melitus sick? Why did Paul not heal Timothy but instead advise him to take a little wine for his stomach sake and his often infirmities?
 
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