Matthew 12:40

intojoy

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Ask any Jew. Ask Ben Masada he would discredit the three days three nights in heart beat if he could just to try and blemish the apostles and The Lord and so would the Jewish community of the first century had there been any hint of falsehood related to the statement. There's nothing there
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jamie

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He was not crucified on the 14th, but on the 15th. He ate the passover with His disciples after sundown of the 14th and the beginning of the 15th according to GOD's appointed times for Israel. He was crucified the next morning, still the 15th.

Nisan 15 is a Sabbath. The Sabbath begins at sunset of the 14th and the Passover is eaten the evening that begins the 15th.

For the Passover to be eaten the evening of the 15th it must be sacrificed on the afternoon of the 14th.

Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. (John 19:31)​

This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a rock-hewn tomb where no one had ever yet been laid. It was the day of Preparation and the sabbath was beginning.
(Luke 23:53-54 RSV)​
 

steko

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Nisan 15 is a Sabbath. The Sabbath begins at sunset of the 14th and the Passover is eaten the evening that begins the 15th.

For the Passover to be eaten the evening of the 15th it must be sacrificed on the afternoon of the 14th.

That's what I said, except for the Sabbath part.

Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. (John 19:31)​

Paraskeue means 'preparation' for the weekly seventh day Sabbath.
It is the word used for Friday in Greece, today and since the first century.
A 'high day' is a feast day which lands on a seventh day weekly Sabbath. That day began the counting of the omer. (see Edersheim)

This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a rock-hewn tomb where no one had ever yet been laid. It was the day of Preparation and the sabbath was beginning.
(Luke 23:53-54 RSV)​
[/QUOTE]

Again 'preparation/paraskeue' is the sixth day preparation for the weekly Sabbath.
 

genuineoriginal

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You quoted my comment, but I don't see what your comment has to do with it. I wonder if you might explain?
I am merely pointing out that building a case for a Wednesday afternoon burial on the single verse Matthew 12:40 means that you have a lot more verses to explain away than the people that build a case for a Friday afternoon burial on those other verses.

To prove the point, I provided three verses from Luke 24 that are completely unable to fit inside a Wednesday afternoon to Saturday afternoon burial scenario.

When all the verses that indicate the time of the burial and resurrection are taken together, the only verse that doesn't fit any conceivable timeline is Matthew 12:40, and it is only impossible to make it fit when you interpret it to mean 72 hours.
 

jamie

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To prove the point, I provided three verses from Luke 24 that are completely unable to fit inside a Wednesday afternoon to Saturday afternoon burial scenario.

Jesus was not buried on Wednesday afternoon. Jesus was not resurrected on Saturday afternoon.

Jesus was buried as Thursday began and was resurrected as Sunday began.
 

rstrats

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jamie,

re: "Ok, but the actual sign was how long he would be in the ground."


And the 6th calendar day of the week crucifixion adherents say that the Messiah was placed in the tomb on the 6th calendar day of the week - at least that has been my experience with the ones with which I've had contact. They say He was in the tomb for a portion of the 6th calenday day daytime, all of the night time and all of the daytime of the 7th calendar day, all of the night time of the 1st calendar day and a portion of the daytime of the first calendar day. That of course only accounts for two night times. Since Matthew 12:40 says three night times would be involved, they insist that the verse is using common Jewish idiomatic language. I am simply looking for some support for that idea other than "it must be an idiom because that is the only way to make the third night actually mean the second night".


re: "As he was buried a Sabbath began. The women came to the tomb before sunrise so if he was crucified on a Friday he would only have been in the ground one night and no days.

Actually, if He were placed in the tomb during the 7th calendar day night time and rose on the 1st calendar day during the night time, two night times and one daytime would be involved.

BTW, Mark 16:2 says that the sun had already risen.
 
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rstrats

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genuineoriginal,

re: "I am merely pointing out that building a case for a Wednesday afternoon burial on the single verse Matthew 12:40..."

Where have I said anything about building a case for a Wednesday afternoon burial?


re: "...the only verse that doesn't fit any conceivable timeline is Matthew 12:40, and it is only impossible to make it fit when you interpret it to mean 72 hours."

It's also impossible to make it fit if "three nights" actually means at least a portion of three night times.
 

jamie

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The women came to the tomb before sunrise...

Yes, I should have said Mary Magdalene.

Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. (John 20:1)​

That suggests to me it was before 6 AM, which is when the day starts. The other women came around 6 AM, maybe even a little after, so go ahead and count it if you want to do so. That gives you Saturday and Sunday which is fairly close to three days.

Also, if you want to disregard Luke 23:54 (RSV) you can count Friday and there you have your three days. Nothing to it.

You will also need to disregard Matthew 27:62-65.

On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away and say to the people ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”

Pilate said to them, “You have a guard, go your way, make it as secure as you know how.”

So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard.​

If Jesus was buried on Friday then the tomb would have been sealed on Saturday morning for three days so the body would not be stolen.

Evidently Pilate and the Jews did not know he died on Friday or they could have sealed the tomb for just one day.

But since the tomb was supposed to be sealed and a guard posted for three days that proves Jesus was not the Christ because the three days were cut short and Jesus did not prove his three day sign.

And there you have it...
 

jamie

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To prove the point, I provided three verses from Luke 24 that are completely unable to fit inside a Wednesday afternoon to Saturday afternoon burial scenario.

Yes, you did indeed provide scriptures that say Sunday is the third day from Friday. Way to go.

Let's count it together. We have Saturday, Sunday ... oops. But we did get close.
 

False Prophet

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[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
[2] The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
[4] And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
[5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. Gen.1
 

jamie

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Paraskeue means 'preparation' for the weekly seventh day Sabbath.

No, paraskeue is a Greek word meaning preparation period. It can mean preparation for anything, a wedding festival, a trip, a birthday party, or anything that requires preparation.

Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days. And no leavened bread shall be seen among you, nor shall leaven be seen among you in all your quarters. (Exodus 13:7)​

I don't know how many years you have observed Unleavened Bread but I can assure it takes preparation to remove all leavened products from the home and prepare unleavened bread products to be eaten for the feast.

I don't eat in my car but I still like to have it detailed or at least vacuumed before the feast.

Yes, Unleavened Bread observance requires preparation and you may be surprised to learn that Nisan 15 does not always fall on a Saturday.

Preparation for an annual Sabbath is no less important than preparation for the weekly Sabbath. A Sabbath is a Sabbath is a Sabbath.

I'm surprised you believe you can observe Unleavened Bread without any preparation.
 

rainee

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I can do this but only as a riddle:
When are two days only one?

Answer: when they are at night. ie, the 17th ended and the 18th began in the night.

According to this reckoning couldn't The Lord could have been in the grave starting from Friday afternoon, going through Saturday, day and night, and Sunday until just before dawn?

I think you can do the same thing in the Jewish allotment of times but this is Gentile above -- and have you considered why you might want to do Gentile time?

Because Jonah, David and the servant, and the Crucifixion and Burial of the Lord all three involved Gentiles and their concept of time...

If you do the figuring differently what is the problem or rather how do you do it?
 

JonahofAkron

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No, paraskeue is a Greek word meaning preparation period. It can mean preparation for anything, a wedding festival, a trip, a birthday party, or anything that requires preparation.

Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days. And no leavened bread shall be seen among you, nor shall leaven be seen among you in all your quarters. (Exodus 13:7)​

I don't know how many years you have observed Unleavened Bread but I can assure it takes preparation to remove all leavened products from the home and prepare unleavened bread products to be eaten for the feast.

I don't eat in my car but I still like to have it detailed or at least vacuumed before the feast.

Yes, Unleavened Bread observance requires preparation and you may be surprised to learn that Nisan 15 does not always fall on a Saturday.

Preparation for an annual Sabbath is no less important than preparation for the weekly Sabbath. A Sabbath is a Sabbath is a Sabbath.

I'm surprised you believe you can observe Unleavened Bread without any preparation.

Interesting. I thought you were arguing the disappearance of the necessity of Torah, but you celebrate Pesach to the point of removal of leaven? You are an enigma.
 

jamie

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Interesting. I thought you were arguing the disappearance of the necessity of Torah, but you celebrate Pesach to the point of removal of leaven? You are an enigma.

The Torah had to be set aside because God decided to once again severely chastise his people. Jesus offered them the kingdom based on their repentance, but they declined and God reprimanded them again.

The Torah is for Israel only, it is not for the church of God. But what does that have to do with Passover and Unleavened Bread?

To this day the Torah requires a lamb or goat sacrifice for Passover. Since the priesthood is not extant and there is no sanctuary even the Jews in Israel have to fudge on the law.

I keep Passover and Unleavened Bread based on NT instructions, not the Torah.
 

jamie

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According to this reckoning couldn't The Lord could have been in the grave starting from Friday afternoon, going through Saturday, day and night, and Sunday until just before dawn?

Do you not believe Jesus was the firstfruits of the kingdom of God?
 

Squeaky

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Squeaky,

I don't see where your post shows a phrase stating a certain number of days, and or a certain number of nights where it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?

I said
Well some worked part of a day and some worked all day. But the land owner paid them all the same. The land owner seen a part of a day as a full day.
 

steko

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No, paraskeue is a Greek word meaning preparation period. It can mean preparation for anything, a wedding festival, a trip, a birthday party, or anything that requires preparation.

Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days. And no leavened bread shall be seen among you, nor shall leaven be seen among you in all your quarters. (Exodus 13:7)​

I don't know how many years you have observed Unleavened Bread but I can assure it takes preparation to remove all leavened products from the home and prepare unleavened bread products to be eaten for the feast.

I don't eat in my car but I still like to have it detailed or at least vacuumed before the feast.

Yes, Unleavened Bread observance requires preparation and you may be surprised to learn that Nisan 15 does not always fall on a Saturday.

Preparation for an annual Sabbath is no less important than preparation for the weekly Sabbath. A Sabbath is a Sabbath is a Sabbath.

I'm surprised you believe you can observe Unleavened Bread without any preparation.

The word that is used in the four gospels as 'preparation' for the passover and unleavened bread is 'hetoimazo'.
'Paraskeue' always applies to 'preparation' for the weekly seventh day Sabbath and is the word used throughout the last two-thousand years in Greece for the sixth day of the week.
 

intojoy

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The evidence of the Gospels is that Yeshua was killed on a Friday and placed in the tomb before sundown on Friday. There is no need to take the term Sabbath any other way than the usual Sabbath, which is from sundown Friday until sundown Saturday. This is the emphasis of Scripture.

For example, John 19:31 states: The Jews therefore, because it was the Preparation, that the bodies should not remain on the cross upon the sabbath (for the day of that sabbath was a high day), asked of Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. The day of preparation was always Friday. On this day, the Jewish people prepared the Sabbath meal in advance because they were not allowed to prepare any food on the Sabbath day. A Sabbath is called a High Sabbath when it falls on a Jewish holiday. In this case, it was the second day of the Passover, and the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Mark 15:42 reads: And when even was now come, because it was the Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath ... In Jewish terminology, the “day of preparation” or the day before the sabbath is always Friday.
Luke 23:54 adds: And it was the day of the Preparation, and the sabbath drew on. The day of the Preparation was Friday; the sabbath drew on meant that the sun was beginning to set on Friday. The Sabbath officially begins once three stars have appeared in the sky.

Matthew 27:62 reads: Now on the morrow, which is the day after the Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees were gathered together unto Pilate ...

The day after the Preparation is Saturday morning, following Friday night; it is Sabbath morning following Sabbath night. Just from these statements alone, it is clear that Yeshua died around three o'clock in the afternoon on Friday. He was placed in the tomb before three stars appeared in the sky, which is the official Jewish reckoning that the Sabbath begins.

Besides the Gospels, ancient Jewish records also give Friday as the day the Messiah died. The Talmud points out that He died on a Friday during the Passover: “There is a tradition on the eve of the sabbath and Passover they hung Jesu. The heralds went forth crying, ‘Jesu goes to be executed because he practiced sorcery and seduced Israel and estranged them from their God. Let anyone who can bring forward a justifying plea for him, come and give information concerning him.' But no justifying plea was found for him. So they hung Jesu on the eve of the sabbath and the Passover.”

This is a Talmudic quote referring to the trial of Yeshua and His execution. Certain things should be noted. First, twice in this quote it is emphasized that He was executed on the eve of the Sabbath, which is Friday. Secondly, twice it is mentioned that it was at the Passover, which is why John 19:31 stated that the Sabbath was a High Sabbath because it fell during a Jewish festival week. Thirdly, this quote reveals that the exact charge against Jesus was: “he practiced sorcery and seduced Israel and estranged them from their God.” This is a reflection of Matthew 12, where Yeshua was officially rejected on the grounds of being demon possessed; they claimed that He performed His miracles by the power of Beelzebub.

It is interesting that the rabbis of this period never denied that Jesus performed real miracles. In this particular quote, they admit that He performed miracles. But in Matthew 12:24, they explained away His miracles by claiming He performed them by the power of Beelzebub, the prince of demons. In this quote, they say, “he practiced sorcery,” reflecting the Matthew 12 account. But the main import of this quote is that Yeshua indeed died on a Friday before the Sabbath, and during the week of the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. To try to move His death to either a Thursday, Wednesday, or Tuesday because of a Gentile misconception of the Jewish reckoning of time violates not only the clear statements of the Gospels, it also violates the actual historical evidence recorded much closer to the time when these things happened.

“How long was He in the tomb?” Because of the mention of the three days and three nights, some have tried to move the Crucifixion to an earlier day in the week. Some have felt that the above statement requires three full 24-hour periods, so they try to place Him in the tomb for three 24-hour periods.

If this position is thought through, it actually creates more problems than it solves. For example, if Yeshua were in the tomb three full 24-hour periods, and resurrected only one second after the third 24-hour period, what day would it have been? It would not be the third day, but the fourth day. Another example is when He met the two disciples on the Emmaus road. By then, many hours had transpired since the Resurrection. The two relate to Yeshua the events of the trial and crucifixion and point out that it was three days since these things happened! If He had been in the tomb three full 24-hour periods, then certainly it would have been the fourth day since His death.

Actually, if all the statements of Jesus are considered, they seem to be contradictory. For example, sometimes He said: on the third day the Resurrection would occur (Mat. 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 27:64; Lk. 9:22; 18:33; 24:7, 21, 46; Acts 10:40; I Cor. 15:4). Sometimes He said: after three days, meaning the fourth day (Mat. 26:61; 27:40, 63; Mk. 8:31; 9:31; 10:34; 14:58; 15:29; Jn. 2:19-20). A third statement He made was the expression: three days and three nights (Mat. 12:39-40).

While these three statements appear to be contradictory in Gentile reckoning of time, they are not so in Jewish reckoning of time. In Jewish reckoning of time, part of a day counts for the whole day, just as part of a year counts for a whole year. Yeshua was in the tomb part of Friday. In Jewish reckoning of time, that counted for all of Friday. He was also in the tomb Saturday and part of Sunday, which counts for all of Sunday. All three seemingly contradictory statements can be reconciled from a Jewish reckoning of time.

First, the Resurrection was to be on the third day. The first day in the tomb was Friday; the second day in the tomb was Saturday; the third day in the tomb was Sunday. On that same day, He was resurrected; so, He was resurrected on the third day.

Secondly, the Resurrection was to be after three days because part of the day counted for the whole day. Since He was in the tomb part of Friday, that counted for all of Friday. He was also in the tomb all of Saturday. Since He was in the tomb part of Sunday, that counted for all of Sunday. Therefore, from a Jewish point of view, counting the two partial days as whole days, Jesus was not only resurrected on the third day, He was also resurrected after three days.

Thirdly, the expression three days and three nights can also be reconciled, for this is simply a Jewish figure of speech meaning “any period of time that touches three days.” Since the period of time Yeshua spent in the tomb touched Friday, it counted for all of Friday, including day and night. He was in the tomb both day and night on Saturday. Since He was also in the tomb part of Sunday, it counted for all of Sunday, both day and night. In fact, the statement, three days and three nights, is used in the Old Testament several times (Gen. 42:17-18; I Sam. 30:12-13; I Kg. 20:29, for seven days; II Chr. 10:5, 12; Esth. 4:16 in comparison with 5:1). If the context is looked at carefully, it will show that this expression cannot possibly mean three full 24-hour periods. Contextually , although three days and three nights are mentioned, it does not mean three full 24-hour periods. Sometimes the action was committed on the third day before it went very far into that day, yet it was reckoned as three days and three nights.

Again, there is absolutely no need to try to move the Crucifixion earlier into the week. It must be remembered that the Gospels were written by Jews with a Jewish frame of reference and Jewish reckoning of time. In keeping with the Jewish frame of reference, Jewish terminologies and Jewish reckoning of time, Yeshua was buried on Friday before sundown and before the Sabbath began. He was resurrected some time after the Sabbath, on Saturday night after sundown. From a Jewish perspective, the Sabbath had already ended and Sunday, the first day of the week, had already begun.


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steko

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Excellent post, Intojoy! :thumb:

This is exactly the way I see it and is the way I teach it....exactly the same points.
If one simply reads the gospel accounts and marks the time line of events there is not room for an extra day there.
Only those who insist on a literal 72 hour period and disregard the narrative timeline come to different conclusions and they usually can't be persuaded otherwise.
Jesus said, plainly that He desired to eat this passover with His disciples and that's what they did, at the end of Thursday the 14th and the beginning after sundown of Friday/Paraskeue the 15th. That same night , the 15th He was betrayed and then crucified the next morning, still the 15th by Pilate. He died that afternoon, the 15th and was taken down during the Preparation/Paraskeue for the seventh day weekly Sabbath. He was in the grave on the last part of the 15th, the whole of the 16th and arose on the 17th, the first day of the week.
 

rstrats

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intojoy,

re: "...the expression three days and three nights can also be reconciled, for this is simply a Jewish figure of speech meaning 'any period of time that touches three days'.”

And that is why I started this topic; to see if there is any writing from the first century or before that uses a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights for a period of time where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specified number of days and at least parts of each one of the specified number of nights.
 
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