ECT "Lordship 'Salvation'"-perverting the gospel of Christ

[heir]

Jesus is the Lord!

If you listen to Him and observe what He says, you are on the way to salvation.

blessings.

Nope. You're on your way to hell!

 

[Derf]

Was Saul of Tarsus on the road to repentance when he was knocked off his horse?

What exactly is "the road to repentance"? Are you saying we can't repent in an instant, but it takes a process? Jesus didn't seem to think so, else how could someone come to you seven times in a day and repent each time?

Were the Jews in Acts 2 on "the road to repentance"? They needed to be preached to, it seems, for them to see the need for repentance. Saul, too, needed to be "preached to", and he was, by our Lord (but not his lord), who asked why he kicked against the pricks. He was not recognizing Jesus as Lord as he left for Damascus. But when he got there, what did he do? He followed his new Lord's instructions to go into the city and wait for further instructions.

 

[heir]

Well, how about this.

Neither repentance or the gospel of God; the WHO of Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead (that you cited Romans 10:9-10 KJV) are the power of God to save anyone. The gospel of Christ is (Romans 1:16 KJV). It is the WHY of the cross; that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day as declared in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. It says right there it is the gospel by which the Corinthians are saved and we by extension (Ephesians 3:6 KJV). No need to put stumbling blocks in front of it like you do...Just preach it in it's simplicity that those who hear can trust the Lord after hearing and believing it (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV).

 

[Derf]

...Just preach it in it's simplicity that those who hear can trust the Lord after hearing and believing it (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV).

That's my point. How can you "trust the Lord" if there is no Lord to trust? You can't believe on the Lord that isn't Lord. He has to be Lord for you to believe, but if you believe, then you are in fact making Him your Lord.

I don't have a problem with just preaching it in its simplicity. But if, while preaching it in its simplicity, someone says "Make Him Lord of your life", is that wrong? It doesn't seem so to me. I gave a fair number of references to show that it doesn't seem so to the original preachers and writers of the gospel. When did it become wrong?

Imagine the thief saying to Jesus on the cross: "Remember me when you come into your kingdom...but don't make me do anything I don't want to do, O King--at least not until I become more sanctified."

 

[heir]

That's my point. How can you "trust the Lord" if there is no Lord to trust? You can't believe on the Lord that isn't Lord. He has to be Lord for you to believe, but if you believe, then you are in fact making Him your Lord.

No, you missed the point. Believing after hearing is trusting the Lord. What is it one need to hear to be saved? That they need to make Jesus Christ the Lord of their life? NO! That they need to repent? NO! That Christ died for their sins and that He was buried and rose again as the good news that is the power of God to save them? YES!

I don't have a problem with just preaching it in its simplicity. But if, while preaching it in its simplicity, someone says "Make Him Lord of your life", is that wrong?

Don't put a big ole BUT after saying you don't have a problem with something. That's what religion does right before they add a requirement that doesn't exist for salvation. "Make Him Lord of your life" is not salvation. It is a made up requirement (Colossians 2:8 KJV). It is not the gospel of our salvation. Stick with what is!

It doesn't seem so to me. I gave a fair number of references to show that it doesn't seem so to the original preachers and writers of the gospel. When did it become wrong?

Original preachers of "the gospel"? Who and what gospel would that be?

 

[serpentdove]

In your OP, you seem to be focusing on the idea that people are saying that we need to "do" something to be saved.

All one can do is believe (Eph 2:8-9).

But there are very few examples of people coming to Christ in the bible where they didn't do something. For instance, the thief on the cross didn't just say "remember me", but he also rebuked his fellow thief with the words, "We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." In that episode, the thief rightly recognized his own faults, rightly confessed them, and rightly repented of them. Then he asked Jesus to "remember me when you come into your kingdom." (Luke 23:40-42).

He believed, yes.

Another example, Zacchaeus, when Jesus came to his house, acknowledged his need to follow the law by offering "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold. [Luk 19:8-9 KJV]" Jesus' response? "Today salvation has come to your house".

Zacchaeus' actions proved he had been converted (Lk 19:1-10).

Further, when Peter preached to the Jews at Pentecost, his command when asked by the people what they should do was "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [Act 2:38 KJV]"

That is the message we continue to preach today (Lk 24:47).

"You cannot have a 'come in Savior' and a 'stay out Lord'." Ro 14:9 ~ Adrian Rogers

And Paul, when he was heading to Jerusalem to be bound, as prophesied, reminded those from Ephesus, "[And] how I kept back nothing that was profitable [unto you], but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house, testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. [Act 20:20-21 KJV]"

Repentance is required. They can call him Lord, Lord all day long. If they have not turned (Ac 9:35), repented (Ac 8:22), returned (1 Sam. 7:3), been converted (Ac 15:3), they are as we say in hockey all say no play (Mt 7:20).

When Jesus preached in the countryside or in the city, his message was either "repent" or "repent and believe". The first was more common, and it was often coupled with "for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"

He'll be Lord of all or he won't be Lord at all (Mk 12:30). Yeppers.

The addition of "Lord" is not superfluous, is it? To some it may be (Matt 7:21). But isn't that what Jesus requires (Lu 6:46) of us--not to just call Him "Lord", but to do what He says, which is the same as "making Him Lord", isn't it? It is a recognition of His position and submission to His lordship. We don't make Him Lord of all, but when we agree that we have sinned and repent, then we recognize Him as Lord; we submit to Him as Lord. And in that way, we do "make Him Lord of our lives".

:freak: Don't know what they're teaching (Jer 8:8). :granite:

I think you do injustice to the gospel of Christ when you complain about His servants that call people to make Jesus Lord of their lives.

Honey badger theology (Eph 4:14).

I'll do what I want aka easy believism (Eccl 10:2, Jn 10:10).

Can one believe without making Him Lord? Is it really believing if you don't believe that He is Lord, meaning you are willing (though not necessarily able) to always do what He says to do?

Call him :bow: vending machine, :bow: vending machine (Lk 6:46). :idunno:

See:

What is lordship salvation?

Related:

Has the Law has been done away with?
At patrick jane At john w At Nick At SaultoPaul At Musterion At heir At GloryDaz At exminister At Grosnick Marowbe
Must We Confess Every Sin?
Give Your Life to Jesus
How Many on TOL are Grace Gospel Believers?
Where is Prince Now?
Kirk Cameron: Wives Should 'Honor and Respect and Follow Their Husband's Lead'
The Myth of Unmerited Favor and Grace
The Big Switch
Did Paul teach obedience?
Where Is Muhammad Ali Now?

 

[Cross Reference]

Ah, Yes. Just believe and that does it!

Question: Should there be any evidence that reveals or testifies to one's new found "believing"?

 

[serpentdove]

What is it one need to hear to be saved? That they need to make Jesus Christ the Lord of their life? NO! That they need to repent? NO!

:dizzy: God does not forgive men prior to repentance on their part (Ac 2:38).

 

[john w]

Well, how about this.

In your OP, you seem to be focusing on the idea that people are saying that we need to "do" something to be saved. But there are very few examples of people coming to Christ in the bible where they didn't do something. For instance, the thief on the cross didn't JUST say "remember me", but he also rebuked his fellow thief with the words, "We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." In that episode, the thief rightly recognized his own faults, rightly confessed them, and rightly repented of them. Then he asked Jesus to "remember me when you come into your kingdom." (Luke 23:40-42).

Another example, Zacchaeus, when Jesus came to his house, acknowledged his need to follow the law by offering "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold. [Luk 19:8-9 KJV]" Jesus' response? "Today salvation has come to your house".

Further, when Peter preached to the Jews at Pentecost, his command when asked by the people what they should do was "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [Act 2:38 KJV]"

And Paul, when he was heading to Jerusalem to be bound, as prophesied, reminded those from Ephesus, " 20 [And] how I kept back nothing that was profitable [unto you], but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, 21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. [Act 20:20-21 KJV]"

When Jesus preached in the countryside or in the city, his message was either "repent" or "repent and believe". The first was more common, and it was often coupled with "for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"

Repentance is almost exclusively the first thing people are supposed to do in receiving the gospel message. My question for you is: what is the difference between "repent" and "make Him Lord of your life"? After all, Adam and Eve were disobedient to God's one command in the garden. Jesus was completely committed to God's will--"not my will but yours"--in the other garden. What's the difference? Which had God as Lord and which did not?

That is not to say that "making Him Lord of your life" saves. What saves is the blood of Jesus. But the blood of Jesus is not enough to save, else everybody would be saved. The word we usually associate with that other necessary thing is "faith" or "belief". Belief in what?

• That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [Rom 10:9 KJV]
• And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [Act 16:31 KJV]

The addition of "Lord" is not superfluous, is it? To some it may be (Matt 7:21). But isn't that what Jesus requires (Lu 6:46) of us--not to just call Him "Lord", but to do what He says, which is the same as "making Him Lord", isn't it? It is a recognition of His position and submission to His lordship. We don't make Him Lord of all, but when we agree that we have sinned and repent, then we recognize Him as Lord; we submit to Him as Lord. And in that way, we do "make Him Lord of our lives".

This seems pretty important. It's why Jesus died. "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living." [Rom 14:9 KJV]

I think you do injustice to the gospel of Christ when you complain about His servants that call people to make Jesus Lord of their lives. Does doing so save? No more so than repenting or believing in Jesus. But no less so, either. Can one repent without believing? Can one believe without making Him Lord? Is it really believing if you don't believe that He is Lord, meaning you are willing (though not necessarily able) to always do what He says to do?

Repent-to change your mind, the context telling us of what you are repenting.

The LORD God repented, as did Judas.


Understand this, or we are done. Dig? Good.


"I think you do injustice to the gospel of Christ when you complain about His servants that call people to make Jesus Lord of their lives. "-you

Nope. That is sanctification, the result of being saved.

 

[serpentdove]

Ah, Yes. Just believe and that does it!

Question: Should there be any evidence that reveals or testifies to one's new found "believing"?

There will be evidence (Lk 1:77, Mt 7:20). :sherlock:

As a reminder Cross Reference is number 7 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) in the Misc. category. :burnlib:

 

[heir]

:dizzy: God does not forgive men prior to repentance on their part (Ac 2:38).

Galatians 1:8-9 KJV

 

[serpentdove]

Galatians 1:8-9 KJV

:yawn: You're projecting again (Ga 1:8-9, Eph 4:14).

 

[Derf]

No, you missed the point. Believing after hearing is trusting the Lord. What is it one need to hear to be saved? That they need to make Jesus Christ the Lord of their life? NO! That they need to repent? NO! That Christ died for their sins and that He was buried and rose again as the good news that is the power of God to save them? YES!

Did I miss the point? I think you just repeated exactly what john w was saying. And I don't think I'm understanding anything different from his post. My point was that he was saying one needs to believe, and I'm saying that belief is the same as repentance--two sides of the same coin, perhaps--and that making Jesus Christ Lord of one's life is the same thing as belief and repentance. If there's no difference, then john's post if presenting a false dichotomy.

Don't put a big ole BUT after saying you don't have a problem with something. That's what religion does right before they add a requirement that doesn't exist for salvation. "Make Him Lord of your life" is not salvation. It is a made up requirement (Colossians 2:8 KJV). It is not the gospel of our salvation. Stick with what is!

Simon the sorcerer "believed", but it wasn't good enough--he was likely to perish ("May your money perish with you"). Why was that? Was Peter's statement a "made up requirement" that he needed to do something else AFTER he believed in order not to perish?

Original preachers of "the gospel"? Who and what gospel would that be?

Um...go back and read my previous posts.

 

[heir]

:yawn: You're projecting again (Ga 1:8-9, Eph 4:14).

Paul never preached Acts 2:38 KJV. You're preaching an other gospel unto us...let you be accursed. Galatians 1:8-9 KJV

 

[heir]

:dizzy: God does not forgive men prior to repentance on their part (Ac 2:38).

Man wass forgiven 2000 years ago whether or not he believes it as God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV.

the debt was paid in full Romans 4:25 KJV, Romans 6:23 KJV whether or not someone believes it.

 

[serpentdove]

What exactly is "the road to repentance"?

A road they never travel (Jn 3:19). Their threads usually start with: how much can I sin and still make it to heaven? Rom. 3:25, 26

 

[Derf]

Repent-to change your mind, the context telling us of what you are repenting.

The LORD God repented, as did Judas.


Understand this, or we are done. Dig? Good.

I think I understand it, but what is your point as it pertains to my post?

"I think you do injustice to the gospel of Christ when you complain about His servants that call people to make Jesus Lord of their lives. "-you

Nope. That is sanctification, the result of being saved.

Meaning if one is saved, then one can repent? And if one is saved, one can believe? Was Paul lying to the Phillipian jailer after he asked "What must I do to be saved?" I guess Paul was just telling him "if you aren't saved already (able to repent and believe), then you can't be saved, because that only happens when you start the sanctification process, which you can't do until you are justified. Sorry about that--please read the fine print next time."

 

[heir]

Did I miss the point? I think you just repeated exactly what john w was saying. And I don't think I'm understanding anything different from his post. My point was that he was saying one needs to believe, and I'm saying that belief is the same as repentance--two sides of the same coin, perhaps--and that making Jesus Christ Lord of one's life is the same thing as belief and repentance. If there's no difference, then john's post if presenting a false dichotomy.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17 KJV). We can see that the Ephesians to whom Paul wrote the letter trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV). Simple stuff. No need to complicate things.

Simon the sorcerer "believed", but it wasn't good enough--he was likely to perish ("May your money perish with you"). Why was that? Was Peter's statement a "made up requirement" that he needed to do something else AFTER he believed in order not to perish?

Why are you going back to Acts 8? The gospel of our salvation is not even preached back there.

Um...go back and read my previous posts.

no need

 

[Derf]

Btw, I hate to start a firestorm and then walk away, but I'll be away from TOL for the rest of the day, prob'ly.

Have fun!

 

[serpentdove]

Btw, I hate to start a firestorm and then walk away, but I'll be away from TOL for the rest of the day, prob'ly.

Have fun!

Don't worry about us. We, the bride, :freak: will be working on our face (Mal 4:5, Mt 24:14).

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