Lifting & Fasting

[Nick M]

Attia did a piece once about his personal experience with keto, he said it took him 18 months to regain his strength

Whoever this is…is lying or leaving out details of the diet. We didn’t eat carbs in history from creation until the industrial revolution like we do know. We ate in summer when food was plentiful and at the harvest. Insulin exists to get us through winter by storing carbs as fat.

Speaking of which let me help those confused. A body might have 1000-1500 calories if glycogen in it stored, 100,000 calories of fat stored. Americans today is even more as we overload our system. Fat is the preferred energy source.

 

[Idolater]

Whoever this is…is lying or leaving out details of the diet.

I doubt it, the guy's nothing if not analytical. He's the type to meticulously record every data point every day.

Besides it comports with the sports of bodybuilding and power lifting. Elite lifters all consume tons of carbs.

iow there aren't any elite lifters who don't consume tons of carbs.

But it specifically is when they're building strength and muscle. When they're cutting, especially bodybuilders for a competition, that's when they'll cut carbs way down, trying to lose fat and glycogen (glycogen binds water and both of them add to a "puffy" look as opposed to the "shredded" thing they're going for).

We didn’t eat carbs in history from creation until the industrial revolution like we do know. We ate in summer when food was plentiful and at the harvest. Insulin exists to get us through winter by storing carbs as fat.

Yeah granted that's one of most important anabolic (tissue building) things insulin does.

Speaking of which let me help those confused. A body might have 1000-1500 calories if glycogen in it stored, 100,000 calories of fat stored. Americans today is even more as we overload our system. Fat is the preferred energy source.

Oh 100,000 fat calories easily. A pound of fat is c. 4000 calories so 100k is c. 25 LBS of body fat.

For a 250 LB person that's only 10% body fat which is very lean (for men) and for a person who weighs 166 LBS that's 15% bodyfat, which isn't very much (it's near unhealthy for women). Most obese people have over 30% body fat, so 300,000 stored fat calories is closer to normal.

On the topic here's a formula I use to determine my own body fat, using a tape measure:

The US Navy Method: (units, inches)

86.01 x [ log10 ( (abdomen circumference) -(neck circumference) ) ] - 70.041 x [ log10 ( height ) ] + 36.76

You need a spreadsheet or an advanced calculator to get log10.
This estimates your percent body fat, based on your gut, your neck, and your height. Combine it with your body mass to calculate how many pounds of fat you're hauling around.

 

[Nick M]

I doubt it, the guy's nothing if not analytical.

I can appreciate it and know the type. But some still bend the knee and lie for the gain of big pharma, which is part of the Beast not yet revealed. Sometimes.

Look how long Mike Pence waited to reveal he is a liar and a child of the devil. But that is off point. The facts of nutrition and insulin remain. It is a fat storage hormone.

 

[Nick M]

iow there aren't any elite lifters who don't consume tons of carbs.

But it specifically is when they're building strength and muscle. When they're cutting, especially bodybuilders for a competition,

Good point and I was off point in thinking of body builders specifically.

 

[Idolater]

I can appreciate it and know the type. But some still bend the knee and lie for the gain of big pharma, which is part of the Beast not yet revealed. Sometimes.

Look how long Mike Pence waited to reveal he is a liar and a child of the devil. But that is off point. The facts of nutrition and insulin remain. It is a fat storage hormone.

Yes. It also protects your organs from too much blood sugar. It's amazing that sugar is literally so toxic to us that if we don't have functioning insulin (diabetes or insulin resistance) then we will die because our tissues will be destroyed by sugar. People lose limbs, eyes, etc. To sugar! Not to smoking, but to sweets.

 

[Nick M]

Yes. It also protects your organs from too much blood sugar

By converting it into fat. It isn't a bad design. The world was made in 6 days and there were no refrigerators. The harvest was a time to fatten up before winter when food is scarce. We don't need to do that now, nor eat 6 times a day.

 

[Idolater]

By converting it into fat. It isn't a bad design. The world was made in 6 days and there were no refrigerators. The harvest was a time to fatten up before winter when food is scarce. We don't need to do that now, nor eat 6 times a day.

Right. Although I will say that it's pretty remarkable that you could store up enough nutrition in adipose tissue to go without food for months. I mentioned before, a guy who fasted for 55 days; but the World record holder went for literally over a year without eating anything. He transformed from a blob, into a man by not eating anything for over a year straight.

Can you imagine having an army go to war and not need food? By itself it wouldn't win every battle, but it would be an advantage over your enemy to not have to feed your troops, but he still has to feed his.

 

[Nick M]

Attia did a piece once about his personal experience with keto, he said it took him 18 months to regain his strength in the weight room from the lack of carbohydrates in his diet.

I don't know who it is. I have learned people lie about it, to include selling their information and products. If you don't have body fat, you do need more fuel.

 

[Nick M]

Can you imagine having an army go to war and not need food?

No. And I have no issue with what I saw deployed. Cases and cases of food with a shelf life, like muffins and Pop tarts. And apples and bananas. It is for the men on 12 hour dismounted patrols. The only issue is the false information about what is going on. And people who don't go door to door don't need it, and eat it anyway.

 

[Nick M]

One other thing that I have learned in the last 10 years is that glucose metabolism and fat burning are two different things. Metabolism should not be discussed when you're talking about fat burning.

 

[Idolater]

One other thing that I have learned in the last 10 years is that glucose metabolism and fat burning are two different things. Metabolism should not be discussed when you're talking about fat burning.

I understand metabolism very broadly to be the sum of anabolism (tissue building) and catabolism (tissue diminishing), such that, at caloric balance (maintenance of body mass diet), the sum is zero, you build the same amount of tissue that you diminish.

The worst way to maintain your body weight is to diminish your muscle tissue, but build up your fat tissue to make up for it, so that your body weight doesn't change, but your body composition got fatter, you just didn't see it happening on the scale.

100% fasting

(iow truly 0 calories of nutrition, meaning only things like water and black coffee or tea are permitted)

is 100% catabolic. It's only tissue dimishing, with no tissue building. It's the fastest way no pun intended, to catabolically shrink your body fat or adipose tissue. The thing is it's a little bit severe, and your body likes to recover from the stress of fasting in something that resembles gluttony, so you have to be careful on the other end, when you break out of the fast. Because once you break your fast and start eating again, if you exceed your maintenance calories just for the day, you're still going to go right back to building up fat tissue, or adipose tissue anabolism. Even though you just came off a fast where you're "eating" a 2000-calorie deficit diet for days on end, you still might be interested in overeating, even though all it's going to do, once it takes care of your body today, it will store all the extra for your body tomorrow. As fat.

So be careful with fasting for fat loss, but if you're going to try it, then consider the findings in this thread, and strength train, so that you don't lose strength. You'll lose muscle mass (catabolic), that's inevitable, but strength loss isn't, because strength is a function of both neorology and muscularity, you're going to lose muscularity on a fast (muscle catabolism), but you can even gain strength neurologically, if you're a beginner or even a new intermediate to weight training, and maybe even more advanced.

Use very high weights

(very low rep range, 1-3 or 1-4; experiment to see which one for you personally; it could also be 1-5 or even 1-10–although 1-10's unlikely–again depending on your own body; bodies vary).

This means you're not going to be doing many reps, and you don't even have to do many sets either. It's not going to take a lot of time. All you have to do is maintain strength. Maintenance training volume, iow.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

I've recently started trying to get myself back in shape again. My arms are looking too skinny for my beer belly. I've been mostly training for upper body strength with a friend of mine but I don't have my own weights anymore so I'm wondering if anyone knows a decent alternative to shoulder presses that I could be doing at home. (I don't have a chin up bar either. )

I could also use some good diet advice. Should I be trying to completely eliminate carbs? Im not really into jogging or biking or anything like that. Just lifting. I'm also thinking about cooking with lard now instead of vegetable oil. I don't know anyone who has ever tried that before so Im not so sure about it...I know some people who do fasting and they say it works wonders but I have never tried that before either.

I'm 6'2", 178lbs with a slight to medium sized beer belly.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

Also another thing maybe worth mentions is that I feel completely dead tired the next day after a workout. I dont remember it being this way when I was younger. Not sure if thats good, bad normal or what. Maybe from poor diet? Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Idolater]

How old are you? Asking because it affects the answer.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

How old are you? Asking because it affects the answer.

Late 40's . I used to work out a lot up until around age 30 and I have really let myself go since then. I also have real bad stomach acid problems so I am trying to fix my diet as well as my body form.

 

[Idolater]

Late 40's . I used to work out a lot up until around age 30 and I have really let myself go since then. I also have real bad stomach acid problems so I am trying to fix my diet as well as my body form.

So start with about 120 grams of protein a day. 160 grams is better but 120 grams is a good start.

And it has to be discounted, according to how well your body digests it, which means your age (because your body digests protein worse as you get older) and the source. Protein powders are processed in factories but they are digested well, so you don't have to discount them, but for instance meats like chicken fish and beef and other seafood, the discount is like 0.9, because they're really easy to digest, and then there's grains and legumes and nuts, and they're not really well digested, so you have to discount them like 0.5

Dairy like yogurt, milk, cottage cheese are really well digested, you basically don't have to discount dairy protein; and the same with eggs I think.

So combine together the protein discount with the protein concentration (roughly how many of the calories the food has is from protein? something like skinless chicken breast is like 80% of its calories are from protein, which is really good) to plan out how you're going to get in your daily protein.

Once you have that down, then you can figure out what you want to do for weight training. But the protein kind of sets the table for weight training to really help change your body. Eating enough protein a day, taking into account discounting, and spreading it out (don't eat all your protein all in one meal), enables you to take advantage of any inadvertent stimulus to grow muscularity you might already be doing during your days, like carrying heavy stuff or sprinting up stairs or whatever it might be.

There may be some risk to your kidneys or something else with boosting your protein intake in your diet, so obv don't take advice from strangers on the internet without checking with a trusted medical professional.

 

[Idolater]

Say your daily basal metabolic rate is 1965 calories.

If you eat 150 grams of protein from skinless chicken breast every day, you'd also consume c. 20 grams of chicken fat also, so that's c. 780 calories.

If you just ate that (with like some salt or mustard or vinegar or something basically non-caloric for seasoning), you'd have an almost 1200-calorie deficit every day, which means you'd lose fat more than a pound-and-a-half per week, you could lose over five LBS of fat a month, if you ate just 150 grams of protein from skinless chicken breast every day. And plus you could at least preserve most all of your muscularity.

So you can add in vegetables and starches and fruits on top of the 150 grams of protein, and still manage like a 600-calorie a day deficit, and that's like a pound a fat a week off, or about four LBS of fat loss per month. And you might even add muscularity while doing it, if you appropriately weight train, and not just preserve whatever muscularity you already have.

Your fat loss dieting should be built on getting in your daily protein.

(Again, if and only if medically advised.)

Unless you're fasting, of course.

 

[Nick M]

I doubt it, the guy's nothing if not analytical. He's the type to meticulously record every data point every day.

That leaves ignorant (no knowledge) or dumb.

Elite lifters all consume tons of carbs.

When they're cutting, especially bodybuilders for a competition, that's when they'll cut carbs way down,

Because insulin is the fat storage hormone. Lies are also told by the omission of known facts. Leaving out that key detail. Here is the "The Law" for fat storage and burning. Because your topic is fasting. This is what happens when you fast.

Oh 100,000 fat calories easily. A pound of fat is c. 4000 calories so 100k is c. 25 LBS of body fat.

I use that term so you can relate. Calories do not factor in to human chemistry, weight gain, or loss. And by weight we mean fat. When a parson fasts, HGH goes up, not down. Stem Cells are produced about 48 hours into a fast. Maybe 72, I would have to check again. The single most important thing all Americans need to learn is what I said several times and will again.

Insulin is the fat storage hormone. That is its purpose. God was not wrong in doing so. But in our world with grocery stores, large cattle and chicken farms....we just don't need as much. I am trying to steer you away from the brain washing of not knowing what insulin is doing.

 

[Nick M]

I understand metabolism very broadly to be the sum of anabolism (tissue building) and catabolism (tissue diminishing), such that, at caloric balance (maintenance of body mass diet), the sum is zero, you build the same amount of tissue that you diminish.

I meant to include your statement here in my reply. You are pointed the wrong way. Get those ideas from your head.

 

[Idolater]

That leaves ignorant (no knowledge) or dumb.




Because insulin is the fat storage hormone. Lies are also told by the omission of known facts. Leaving out that key detail. Here is the "The Law" for fat storage and burning. Because your topic is fasting. This is what happens when you fast.

Yes, but insulin is still secreted even if you're eating 100% protein and fat and zero carbohydrates, because like you say and show, it prevents fat from being stored, which means you're burning excess protein and nutritional fat for energy, until you run out, and then insulin turns off, and you can burn adipose tissue (which is catabolic, tissue-reducing).

Also when you're fasting, you're also catabolizing muscle and even skin eventually, in order to recycle protein. Protein is used all the time for the body, and when you fast, that requirement doesn't reduce, so your body will harvest its own protein wherever it can to meet the need. It's why particularly long fasts can actually shrink the skin, that doesn't happen if you just lose fat. That's why people who lose a lot of fat can still have extra skin. The only way to shrink skin relatively quickly is through fasting. But that also reduces your muscle mass, so it's a balancing act.

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Cool.

I use that term so you can relate. Calories do not factor in to human chemistry, weight gain, or loss. And by weight we mean fat.

The body, even when sedentary or on bed rest, still uses something like 46 calories per 100 LBS of body weight per hour, by hook or by crook. If you are fasting or eating at a caloric deficit, you will lose fat, even with no exercise.

When a parson fasts, HGH goes up, not down. Stem Cells are produced about 48 hours into a fast. Maybe 72, I would have to check again.

Yes, those are two benefits of fasting.

The single most important thing all Americans need to learn is what I said several times and will again.

Insulin is the fat storage hormone. That is its purpose. God was not wrong in doing so. But in our world with grocery stores, large cattle and chicken farms....we just don't need as much. I am trying to steer you away from the brain washing of not knowing what insulin is doing.

When I'm not fasting, I try to eat enough protein every day for whatever my body needs it for, I'll cut out as much fat and carbohydrate as I can in order to lose fat, while still getting in the right amount of protein (spread out over three or four meals a day, fairly evenly divided up by protein, is best).

If I'm not fasting or dieting, then I include more fat and carbohydrate.