Killer Whale

[serpentdove]

...ever try to throw a stone undeerwater? ..let's get the owner and let the 'orca' go.

I mean, he might'a been late to pick up his kid from daycare and such; how else he gonna communicate with us dum ***** who can't even speak?

I think the idea is:

21:28-36. "Here statutes were given for cases involving injury through negligence. First, God gave regulations concerning injuries inflicted by animals (vv. 28-32). If a bull gored someone to death, the animal was to be killed. However, if the animal had a habit of violently attacking people and the owner did nothing to prevent it and someone was killed, the owner (as well as the bull) was to be put to death. He could avoid the death penalty if he could come up with financial compensation demanded by the dead person’s relatives. If a slave was killed by a bull, the animal’s owner had to remunerate the slave owner by paying 30 shekels of silver (cf. Matt. 26:14-15), apparently the price of the slave.

Second, in the event of animal loss due to someone’s negligence (e.g., in not covering a pit—perhaps used to collect rainwater—to prevent an animal falling in), the guilty party was required to render full compensation for the loss of the animal (Ex. 21:33-34). This regulation was important because animals were important property of the Israelites.

Third, if a bull killed someone else’s bull, the loss was to be shared equally between the owners by selling the live bull and splitting the money (v. 35). However, if a man knowingly neglected to pen his goring bull, he must then pay for the dead bull."
Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (1:142). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

 

[Doug Wright]

I think the idea is:

21:28-36. "Here statutes were given for cases involving injury through negligence. First, God gave regulations concerning injuries inflicted by animals (vv. 28-32). If a bull gored someone to death, the animal was to be killed. However, if the animal had a habit of violently attacking people and the owner did nothing to prevent it and someone was killed, the owner (as well as the bull) was to be put to death. He could avoid the death penalty if he could come up with financial compensation demanded by the dead person’s relatives. If a slave was killed by a bull, the animal’s owner had to remunerate the slave owner by paying 30 shekels of silver (cf. Matt. 26:14-15), apparently the price of the slave.

Second, in the event of animal loss due to someone’s negligence (e.g., in not covering a pit—perhaps used to collect rainwater—to prevent an animal falling in), the guilty party was required to render full compensation for the loss of the animal (Ex. 21:33-34). This regulation was important because animals were important property of the Israelites.

Third, if a bull killed someone else’s bull, the loss was to be shared equally between the owners by selling the live bull and splitting the money (v. 35). However, if a man knowingly neglected to pen his goring bull, he must then pay for the dead bull."
Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (1:142). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

...but he's cute and does tricks too.

 

[Cracked]

They might have to kill it, because it may not be able to survive in the wild.

However, maybe they should have just left it (them) there in the first place?

When you say a man was killed by a killer whale, isn't that just a touch, I dunno... what is the word, someone help me out here...

 

[johana]

Newsflash: Killer whale kills. Really?

One would think that rather than just killing the whale who was behaving just exactly how you would expect a killer whale to behave, they might reevaluate how they are interacting with them in general to prevent further occurances of Orcas acting like Orcas. I dunno... Might just be me...

Move it to a facility where it's not asked to do tricks and where people can't jump in and swim with him.

The only two real arguments for zoos and the like lies in education/awareness and in their breeding programs. How much educational value does having a whale do tricks really have? Wouldn't it be of more value just to exhibit natural behaviour in a more organic setting?

It's like breeding genetic mutations into tigers so that half their babies can be born genetically deficient and mentally retarded because... well... people think they're cute.

It's unsurprising that when the main purpose of the use of animals is entertainment that the welfare of the animal would take a backseat and that the animal would suffer due to that. It's equally unsurprising that when an animals welfare is not the main priority, that it will react badly to those circumstances. Anything else is just lucky.

 

[Nick M]

Does it matter what God says:

“If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, then uthe ox shall surely be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be acquitted. But if the ox tended to thrust with its horn in times past, and it has been made known to his owner, and he has not kept it confined, so that it has killed a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death (Ex 21:28-29)."

How does it work when the ox gores the owners? I think that is how this is. It is hard for me to feel sorry for the trainer whom was killed. They choose to swim with a "killer" whale. I feel bad for the family.

The people responsible for the whale are the ones being killed. Just so you know, the video isn't real.

Big bite

 

[Real Sorceror]

I think the idea is:

21:28-36. "Here statutes were given for cases involving injury through negligence. First, God gave regulations concerning injuries inflicted by animals (vv. 28-32). If a bull gored someone to death, the animal was to be killed. However, if the animal had a habit of violently attacking people and the owner did nothing to prevent it and someone was killed, the owner (as well as the bull) was to be put to death. He could avoid the death penalty if he could come up with financial compensation demanded by the dead person’s relatives. If a slave was killed by a bull, the animal’s owner had to remunerate the slave owner by paying 30 shekels of silver (cf. Matt. 26:14-15), apparently the price of the slave.

Second, in the event of animal loss due to someone’s negligence (e.g., in not covering a pit—perhaps used to collect rainwater—to prevent an animal falling in), the guilty party was required to render full compensation for the loss of the animal (Ex. 21:33-34). This regulation was important because animals were important property of the Israelites.

Third, if a bull killed someone else’s bull, the loss was to be shared equally between the owners by selling the live bull and splitting the money (v. 35). However, if a man knowingly neglected to pen his goring bull, he must then pay for the dead bull."
Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (1:142). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

Ok, now put down the book and tell us how you feel about the situation. Seriously, is that the only way you can make decisions?

When you say a man was killed by a killer whale, isn't that just a touch, I dunno... what is the word, someone help me out here...

Like they really should have seen it coming?

Two Orca or Killer whales versus Seals

Hey everyone, how big is a sea lion? About person sized?

 

[nicholsmom]

Newsflash: Killer whale kills. Really?

Killer whales are thus named because they are predators ... of fish, jo, not people. This whale didn't kill the trainer to eat her - this isn't "natural" behavior. Like dogs aren't bred to kill people, and when they do, they are put down & the owner is often held criminally liable. Shall we just release this killer dogs into the wild then? Not a chance. They have proven to be dangerous to people. Same thing with this orca.

One would think that rather than just killing the whale who was behaving just exactly how you would expect a killer whale to behave, they might reevaluate how they are interacting with them in general to prevent further occurances of Orcas acting like Orcas. I dunno... Might just be me...

Do other orcas behave this way? Is this standard orca behavior? It looks like - as I search the net - that there are a few dominant orcas who attack regularly, but that most are docile.

Move it to a facility where it's not asked to do tricks and where people can't jump in and swim with him.

According to the articles I read, no body got into the water with this particular orca because he was responsible for two other deaths. This trainer was not in the water with the orca when he grabbed her & hauled her in.

The only two real arguments for zoos and the like lies in education/awareness and in their breeding programs. How much educational value does having a whale do tricks really have? Wouldn't it be of more value just to exhibit natural behaviour in a more organic setting?

That's great for lions and rhinos, but these are smart animals. The scientists are interested in learning their communication techniques. Doing tricks demonstrates receptive language skills and helps them understand how the animals think.

It's like breeding genetic mutations into tigers so that half their babies can be born genetically deficient and mentally retarded because... well... people think they're cute.

No it isn't. Though you can't deny that they fund their park and their research on the shows - that people like until someone gets killed.

It's unsurprising that when the main purpose of the use of animals is entertainment that the welfare of the animal would take a backseat and that the animal would suffer due to that. It's equally unsurprising that when an animals welfare is not the main priority, that it will react badly to those circumstances. Anything else is just lucky.

Clearly, the park was delinquent in their care. This orca should have been released at the first sign that he wouldn't be domesticated - before any attack on humans. After any attack, it should have been put down.

Remember this: all domestic animals were once wild. And some of those domestic animals are pretty smart - pigs and dogs for example. Pigs and dogs can be dangerous, so the owner must take care in the raising and training and put down any that show unsafe levels of aggression. Does that mean that they ought not to be domesticated? I think millions of dog owners would say no. A few bad animals ought not to dictate our answer to all.

Still, I'm open to arguments about orcas specifically that make them unfit for domestication - even in the zoo - as opposed to dolphins who do quite nicely as far as I know.

 

[Alate_One]

Killer whales are thus named because they are predators ... of fish, jo, not people. This whale didn't kill the trainer to eat her - this isn't "natural" behavior.

I would agree that what was done to the trainer is not natural orca behavior. But there are two types of Orca, one specializes in fish, the other will eat things as large as Grey whale calves which they kill by purposeful drowning.

Do other orcas behave this way? Is this standard orca behavior? It looks like - as I search the net - that there are a few dominant orcas who attack regularly, but that most are docile.

For a predator their size they are incredibly safe to be around.

That's great for lions and rhinos, but these are smart animals. The scientists are interested in learning their communication techniques. Doing tricks demonstrates receptive language skills and helps them understand how the animals think.

The problem is these aren't scientists keeping the whales. They are nothing more than amusement park operators that make money from the willingess of most of these intelligent animals to perform on command.

There is some research that gets funded but looking at the institute supported by Seaworld there are a whopping two papers published on Orcas and they both have to do with captive care only (reproduction and growth). Which is interesting I suppose except there is no reason to keep them in captivity for long periods other than to entertain people and make money. I see no scientific reason for Orcas to be kept.

However, I do believe it is important for the public to be able to see animals that they might never otherwise see. They won't value conservation in the wild if they've never seen one. I would like captive Orcas to not be treated as circus animals and be shown to the public under more natural conditions.

Remember this: all domestic animals were once wild. And some of those domestic animals are pretty smart - pigs and dogs for example. Pigs and dogs can be dangerous, so the owner must take care in the raising and training and put down any that show unsafe levels of aggression. Does that mean that they ought not to be domesticated? I think millions of dog owners would say no. A few bad animals ought not to dictate our answer to all.

An orca is not a dog. You should NEVER release a dog or a pig into the wild. A DOMESTIC animal is one that has been bred for many generations to live with humans. Dogs are no longer wild animals. They can still be dangerous, but they are not wild. The wildness has been bred out of them.

Orcas are wild animals that have simply been captured and put into tanks. Getting a wild animal to cooperate is sometimes referred to as "taming" but in truth no wild animal is ever tamed, they get used to you but they retain their instincts. Orcas are not in any way domesticated (nor will they ever be most likely). They haven't been selectively bred for any length of time. Only a few animals in the world have ever been *domesticated* here's a list.

 

[GuySmiley]

I think the orca needs to be killed. Maybe it could survive in the wild and maybe it can't. But now it is used to human contact and has killed 3 people, I don't think its worth the risk to let this particular orca out into the wild. Killer whales in the wild do not attack people, but I wouldn't bet on that for this particular whale. The only other option I see is to keep it somewhere to live out its life away from the public with cautious handlers. Not sure if somewhere like that exists.

I think its ok to have some in captivity. Even if the whales are performing shows and not being studied by scientists, it exposes the animal to the public, and makes money. Some of that money is used for study and conservation. But you aren't going to get a thousand or more people a day to go see them if they aren't performing. And I'm sure the whales are more happy exercising their brains performing than swimming circles around a pool.

 

[Dark Radiance]

I am amazed that people are shocked at this.
I mean it is called a KILLER Whale.
What did people think it was going to do, knit baby booties?

 

[kmoney]

:rotfl:


Maybe too soon. :noid:

 

[Aimiel]

They're the only animal that I'm aware of (besides man) to have been observed in the wild killing for sport. They'll often be too full to eat, but still kill a seal, then toss its dead body several times, playing with it, and never eat it. They aren't a puppy or a pony. Their size, diet and physical capabilities alone should be enough to warn men not to mess with them. Having one do a show with humans in the tank is sheer foolishness. Anyone with that little sense deserves to die. I only hope that one day such nonsense becomes illegal. The killer whales, dolphins, tigers and other wild creatures should not be allowed to be trained to do 'tricks' interfacing with humans, other than signals from outside their cage to signal a display of natural behavior. I saw a show in the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago, where dolphins were trained to do just that: display their natural behaviors on cue, and I learned more about the behavior of dolphins at that show than all the other 'clown act' shows I've seen throughout my whole life.

On a side note: I have several deadly creatures that live in my saltwater aquarium, but I'm not going to reach in the tank and shake hands with them. :duh:

 

[MaryContrary]

Actually, I may change my stance on this one.

This killer whale wasn't a domestic animal that proved dangerous. It was an animal used for entertainment precisely because it is dangerous.

If the handlers were aware the animal was dangerous, the owners were aware and the audience was aware...then all involved were aware of the risks and accepted them in order to entertain for money.

So...my calling for the owner/operators to be held responsible is no more sensible than my calling for someone to be held responsible if a professional boxer is killed in the ring.

I think the particular circumstances here might just render Ex 21:28-29 not applicable.

What say you?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Does it matter what God says:

“If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, then uthe ox shall surely be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be acquitted. But if the ox tended to thrust with its horn in times past, and it has been made known to his owner, and he has not kept it confined, so that it has killed a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death (Ex 21:28-29)."

Well, if you prefer to live under the law than under Jesus then kill the whale and the owners and be sure to keep the rest of the law perfectly becuase Jesus is certainly of no use to you.

 

[MaryContrary]

Well, if you prefer to live under the law than under Jesus then kill the whale and the owners and be sure to keep the rest of the law perfectly becuase Jesus is certainly of no use to you.

There's a difference between criminal law and the law for righteousness. I don't see serpentdove advocating any law for righteousness' sake here. Else you'll have to put yourself under the Law for approving of any criminal law on the books today. :idunno:

 

[BabyChristian]

The whale was doing what whales do.

It was put in an environment which is unnatural with humans knowingly taking a chance that the animal might turn on them.

I don't care what Exodus says, there's many old rules in the O.T. we do not follow.

Exodus 21:28

And if we want to get picky and follow the law precisely, how do you stone a whale in the water? :chuckle:

 

[TomO]

I am amazed that people are shocked at this.
I mean it is called a KILLER Whale.
What did people think it was going to do, knit baby booties?

Well.....that would be a neat trick. lain:

 

[Adam]

The whale was doing what whales do.

It was put in an environment which is unnatural with humans knowingly taking a chance that the animal might turn on them.

I don't care what Exodus says, there's many old rules in the O.T. we do not follow.

Exodus 21:28

And if we want to get picky and follow the law precisely, how do you stone a whale in the water? :chuckle:

What do you mean get picky? This is God's criminal code, it is perfect in origin and when enacted by a government, substantially reduces crime. Certainly you don't think that God did away with His criminal code?

Not only should this dolphin be put to death but also the owners. Exodus 21:29

 

[The Berean]

They're the only animal that I'm aware of (besides man) to have been observed in the wild killing for sport. They'll often be too full to eat, but still kill a seal, then toss its dead body several times, playing with it, and never eat it. They aren't a puppy or a pony. Their size, diet and physical capabilities alone should be enough to warn men not to mess with them. Having one do a show with humans in the tank is sheer foolishness. Anyone with that little sense deserves to die. I only hope that one day such nonsense becomes illegal. The killer whales, dolphins, tigers and other wild creatures should not be allowed to be trained to do 'tricks' interfacing with humans, other than signals from outside their cage to signal a display of natural behavior. I saw a show in the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago, where dolphins were trained to do just that: display their natural behaviors on cue, and I learned more about the behavior of dolphins at that show than all the other 'clown act' shows I've seen throughout my whole life.

On a side note: I have several deadly creatures that live in my saltwater aquarium, but I'm not going to reach in the tank and shake hands with them. :duh:

I've been doing some research on Orcas and they are an impressive animal. They are known to learn tasks and teach other Orcas. Some researchers believe that Orcas may have a form of "culture". There is case in the early 20th century of an Orca, nicknamed Old Tom, who would help whalers hunt other whales!

From wikipedia:

Old Tom (c. 1895 – 17 September 1930) was the name given to an orca by whalers in the port of Eden on the southeast coast of Australia. Old Tom measured 22 feet and weighed 6 tons. The skull measured 1.02 meters and the teeth measured about 5.31 inches. Old Tom was thought to be the leader of a pod of killer whales who helped the whalers by herding baleen whales into Twofold Bay. The killer whales would help kill the whales; in return, the whalers allowed the killer whales to eat the tongues and the lips of the baleen whales.

On 17 September 1930, Old Tom was found dead in Twofold Bay. Before his death Old Tom had been thought to be over 80 years old, but on examination of the remains this estimate was reduced to about 35 years.
Skeleton of Old Tom in the Eden Killer Whale Museum.

Old Tom's bones were preserved and his skeleton is now on display in the Eden Killer Whale Museum.

 

[Flipper]

Well, to be fair, there's little evidence that Killer Whales have ever actually killed anyone in the wild, so I think most marine parks consider them to be safe animals.

I wonder whether this one even knew it was killing her. When they attack seals, it's usually very obvious and often bloody. The description I read didn't sound like a predatory attack, it sounded like the whale might have been trying to play a game.