Katrina Damage

[PureX]

It's not about race, it's about acting, as you say, "white" not about being born white.

Wouldn't that essentially describe racism? It doesn't matter how a black man got black. What matters is that he is a black man and he acts like a black man. Yet he acts like a black man because he's black, and because white people have been oppressing people with black skin for a very long time. So long in fact that the man's actions (his un-white behavior) are in large part the result of this oppression. His identinty and personality becomes the identity and personality of a socially and economically oppressed man.

So it becomes a double edged sword. Black people have been oppressed so hard and for so long that they have actually developed their own sub-culture based on their having to live with these oppressive conditions. And then they are oppressed further because they have developed this sub-culture. So they get blamed for conditions that they did not create, and then this blame is used to justify perpetuating those same conditions. It's a self-sustaining cycle being imposed on them, that's very, very hard to escape. Meanwhile, one (white) immagrint group after another comes to the U.S., is first oppressed, and then accepted into the culture proper, while most blacks remain locked out even after centuries.

It's pretty hard to call this anything but blatent racism.

When in Rome do as the Romans. When in corporate America do as the corporate Americans.

They were brought to "Rome" as slaves - they were NOT ALLOWED to do as the "Romans" were doing. And then because they were not "like the Romans" (how could they be?), they were denied full access even after they were supposedly "allowed" to become Romans. And they are being denied even today.

We "Romans" are racists, and our racism is insidious.

 

[BillyBob]

If what you say is true, there would be no succesful blacks in this country.


Blacks have the same freedoms that whites do, bottom line.

 

[PureX]

To respond to Purex's questioning of why black = poor in New Orleans. A large percentage of the black people in the south are poor because they are the descendants of a displaced African race used as slaves. Certainly, some of the blame can go to racism, but very much goes to the difficulty of going from a negative balance (being owned) to have nothing (being free but "equal") and then working your way up to having things and being able to support yourself. Only recently have equitable conditions given black people the opportunity to take advantage of things like education and a better life for themselves. But, still, their own cultural disadvantage is coming from a whole other culture and having the form a new culture for themselves through the hardships of slavery and then discrimination. It takes a very long time to pull yourself up from a negative balance. That's just mathematics. All of it cannot be blamed on racism. I think the majority of what you see now is the result of a displaced culture and the difficulties involved in forming a new way of relating to a foreign culture.

Lots of white people came to the U.S. as indentured servants (slaves by a prettier name, but with a limited duration of enslavement), and they managed to work their way out of this "negative balance" within a generation or two. Sometimes they did so in a single lifetime. I think you're way underestimating the strength and pervasiveness of racism in this country.

 

[PureX]

If what you say is true, there would be no succesful blacks in this country.

That's just a stupid appeal to irrational extremism. When we're talking about many millions of people over hundreds of years, there will obviously be plenty of exceptions.

Blacks have the same freedoms that whites do, bottom line.

Then how do you explain the fact that most of the poor people in America are black? Do you believe they want to be poor?

 

[BillyBob]

That's just a stupid appeal to irrational extremism.

No, it's an observation which destroys your premise.

When we're talking about many millions of people over hundreds of years, there will obviously be plenty of exceptions.

Which again demonstrates that your premise is about as solid as the land New Orleans was built upon.

Then how do you explain the fact that most of the poor people in America are black?

It's part racial, part cultural and predominately lack of leadership.

Do you believe they want to be poor?

I believe plenty of them are unwilling to do what it takes NOT to be poor.

 

[PureX]

I believe plenty of them are unwilling to do what it takes NOT to be poor.

... Act like hand puppets for rich white people? Like Colin and Condi?

 

[BillyBob]

... Act like hand puppets for rich white people? Like Colin and Condi?

See, it is people like you [lefties] who discourage self reliance and prosperity and reinforce dependency on the government. If any one reason were to be indentified as to why blacks are impoverished, it would be the liberal ideology that has been forced down their throats for the past hundred years.

:sozo: You guys are the culprits!!!!!

 

[wickwoman]

It's not the liberal ideology exclusively. I will say, in part, that the whole idea that arose in the 60s and 70s among the psychological community which was to blame someone for your problems - your mother, your father, etc., is partially to blame. It's the same mentality that causes too many frivilous lawsuits. Too much time is spent looking for someone to blame than actually changing your circumstance. It's the idea that money makes a bad situation better, when it doesn't. It's the idea that descendants of slaves who have never been slaves deserve an apology from people who never enslaved them. It's unwillingness to live in the present. Some of the black people who work in places like McDonalds, Hardees, etc., around here have terrible attitudes. They are rude and hateful for no reason. People in the south get very tired of bad attitudes like that. And it only makes the situation worse. The idea that somebody owes you something just because your skin is a certain color is undermining.

 

[Gaviidae]

Wouldn't that essentially describe racism?

Not by any definition of racism that I or the dictionary know. Racism is claiming that race accounts for the differences in us. My statement had nothing to do with race. It had to do with actions not genetics.

 

[Gaviidae]

In the coming months, I am afraid you will learn how minor the city in terms of the port, the energy industry, etc.

I meant minor in the future, it was definitely a major city in the past. I just don't see New Orleans returning to anywhere near it's former power. Even best case scenario the city will be quite a bit smaller than pre-Katrina.

 

[PureX]

Not by any definition of racism that I or the dictionary know. Racism is claiming that race accounts for the differences in us. My statement had nothing to do with race. It had to do with actions not genetics.

I think racism is an irrational prejiduce against a person or group because of their race. And this is how I was using the word.

 

[PureX]

Some of the black people who work in places like McDonalds, Hardees, etc., around here have terrible attitudes.

Maybe that's because working there sucks, and they know that no one will hire them anywhere else.

They are rude and hateful for no reason.

Oh, I think there's probably a reason. I think they're rude because they hate their jobs and they can't afford to quit, nor can they get anything better. So they're trapped and angry.

People in the south get very tired of bad attitudes like that.

Well, these are the same people that have helped create a society in which people are forced to work at jobs that they hate (and that you would hate, too, if you had to do it for the restr of your life). So maybe they're partly responsible for the bad attitudes they encounter. In fact, I'm betting that's why it bothers them so much.

And it only makes the situation worse.

It's meant to. Don't you think those people with the "bad attitudes" intend ruin your day? I do. I think they're miserable and they're trying to make us miserable, too. I think they're blaming us for their mysery. And to some degree, they're right.

The idea that somebody owes you something just because your skin is a certain color is undermining.

And yet white people just keep giving themselves all the advantages, anyway.

 

[BillyBob]

Maybe that's because working there sucks, and they [black people] know that no one will hire them anywhere else.

Talk about a racist statement! :doh:

So PureX, you are saying that the only jobs black people have are the ones proveded by McDonalds?

:darwinsm:

Oh, I think there's probably a reason. I think they're rude because they hate their jobs and they can't afford to quit, nor can they get anything better.

:darwinsm:

So they're trapped and angry.

No, they are not trapped. However, I agree that they are angry.

And yet white people just keep giving themselves all the advantages, anyway.

Tell that to Jesse Jackson.

 

[Gaviidae]

I think racism is an irrational prejiduce against a person or group because of their race. And this is how I was using the word.

But my statement had nothing to do with their race.

It was also not irrational. There is nothing irrational about preferring to spend time with people who act like you do.

 

[wickwoman]

Purex, I have nothing to do with the bad attitude of a person at McDonalds. I have never discriminated against any black person in the workplace or otherwise to my knowledge. And who would hire a rude person with a bad attitude somewhere else? So sure, they do have to work there, and that's their own fault.

When I go to Chik Fil A, I see happy smiling faces, with very friendly attitudes, black and white people. So, what they do at some of the small businesses around here, is ruin the businesses of people who are trying to make their lives better by running off customers with a bad attitude. If these people don't like working at Hardees, there are a number of organizations that help black people get technical training and/or college degrees. And I am all for education. As I've said in the past, I'd be willing to pay even more taxes to educate the poor. But I will not feel guilty about racism that I've never committed. And I don't appreciate being treated rudely by people who know nothing about me. Some people are their own worst enemy and "the man" is not whose keeping them down. They are often keeping themself down with a very poor attitude.

One of my husband's best friends is a black man. When my husband takes him to the country club in a nearby small southern town, some of my husband's friends give him dirty looks. That's never once made him think his friend shouldn't be there. That same friend has worked hard and made good money all his life with little or no education and nobody to bail him out when he gets into trouble. He's 70 years old, taking care of his sorry daughter's abandoned child. Only last year did he retire. Before that, he was still working outside in the heat doing manual labor. But, whenever you see him he offers you a polite hello and a warm, friendly handshake. He doesn't expect anybody to give him anything. He earns what he gets.

 

[BillyBob]

One of my husband's best friends is a black man.

I have been waiting for someone to say that. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it was just inevitable that a white person qualify themself buy saying something along those lines......

 

[PureX]

Purex, I have nothing to do with the bad attitude of a person at McDonalds. I have never discriminated against any black person in the workplace or otherwise to my knowledge. And who would hire a rude person with a bad attitude somewhere else? So sure, they do have to work there, and that's their own fault.

I understand all of this, but you don't seem to be understanding my point.

We've force a specific group of people to do all the worst jobs, first by outright slavery, then through violent social intimidation, then through unfair laws and hiring practices, and then through unspoken mutual exclusion, and we've done this now for generations. The result is that we've created a permanent underclass of people with a culture based on those difficult and unfair conditions. The result of being one of these permanent underclass people is a poor education, an angry and cynical view of the rest of society, and very little chance or likelihood of getting out of this permanent underclass no matter what one does, how hard one works, or who's butt one kisses. And everyone in this underclass knows it.

So it's not really all that surprising that you encounter such negative attitudes, and in truth it is the same society that makes life for you so much easier that's making life for them so hard. So even though you haven't directly oppressed anyone, you are supporting, and are being supported by, a society that is. So to them, you become a representative of that oppression whether you've personally oppressed anyone or not, and therefor you become the focus of their anger and resentment, too, if you happen to be standing in front of them when their anger wells up. Can you understand this? Can you understand why the last thing such a person is going to be willing to do is try to be acceptable (and pleasant) to a people and a system that has continuously denied and oppressed them for generations? Would you really react any differently if you were in their shoes?

 

[koban]

Why would you want to buy prepared food from somebody who is surly and angry and resentful at you, the customer, just because of your skin color? Wouldn't you wonder how it was prepared? :shocked:


Is there any way (in your estimation Purex) for people in this situation that you have described to overcome their bitterness and escape the chains of poverty within the current system that will allow them to succeed?

 

[PureX]

Is there any way (in your estimation Purex) for people in this situation that you have described to overcome their bitterness and escape the chains of poverty within the current system that will allow them to succeed?

That's the problem. "Overcoming their bitterness" very often does nothing to help them escape the endemic oppression that has caused their bitterness in the first place. They did not cause this situation, and they don't control the system that did, yet time and time again we blame the situation on them and we expect them to change to accomodate us. And even when they do, our system STILL shuts them out most of the time. This is not going to change until WE change. And we aren't going to change until we begin to accept responsibility for what we (collectively) have done, and are still doing to them.

This is why I am pleased that America is getting a chance to see what it has been doing to so many people through it's endemic racism, and how real people suffer as a result.

 

[BillyBob]

:cow: