John Calvin's Nazi God.

[God's Truth]

Jesus says that His Sheep shall hear His voice Jn 10:16

And other*sheep*I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they*shall hear*my voice; and there*shall*be one fold, and one shepherd.

So what happens to the elect that dies before he hears?

 

[beloved57]

So now you say an elect has to HEAR to be saved?

You said before that they are already saved.

So what happens to the elect that dies before he hears?

Yes they have to hear to be saved from darkness and ignorance of their Salvation. The Elect are born lost in ignorance and darkness.

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[beloved57]

So what happens to the elect that dies before he hears?

That's not possible.

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[God's Truth]

Yes they have to hear to be saved from darkness and ignorance of their Salvation. The Elect are born lost in ignorance and darkness.

That's not possible.

So if an elect dies before hearing, then he was not an elect because he did not hear before he died?

So then, all babies and young children who are too young to understand Calvinism, they are babies we can be sure of that were meant to go to hell?

OR, all babies go to heaven, except that a 20 year old who dies before hearing of Calvinism was not an elect and goes to hell?

 

[beloved57]

So if an elect dies before hearing, then he was not an elect because he did not hear before he died?

So then, all babies and young children who are too young to understand Calvinism, they are babies we can be sure of that were meant to go to hell?

OR, all babies go to heaven, except that a 20 year old who dies before hearing of Calvinism was not an elect and goes to hell?

Its not possible for a elect to die before hearing the Gospel. Show me that in scripture!

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[God's Truth]

Its not possible for a elect to die before hearing the Gospel. Show me that in scripture!

How about even a baby or a young child?

 

[beloved57]

How about even a baby or a young child?

Even a baby.God can preach the Gospel to a baby. John the Baptist leaped for joy for his Saviour while in the womb.

Lk 1:43-44

43*And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44*For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.



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[God's Truth]

Even a baby.God can preach the Gospel to a baby. John the Baptist leaped for joy for his Saviour while in the womb.

Lk 1:43-44

43*And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44*For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

So are you saying that babies who are the elect heard the message of Calvinism before they die?

By the way, that scripture does NOT say God preached the gospel to the baby in Elizabeth's womb.

 

[beloved57]

So are you saying that babies who are the elect heard the message of Calvinism before they die?

By the way, that scripture does NOT say God preached the gospel to the baby in Elizabeth's womb.

They hear the Gospel of their Salvation. If you want to call it calvinism that is fine with me.

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[God's Truth]

They hear the Gospel of their Salvation. If you want to call it calvinism that is fine with me.

Babies do not hear the gospel of Calvinism, or any gospel. They are babies.

You have no scripture that says babies hear the message.

 

[beloved57]

Babies do not hear the gospel of Calvinism, or any gospel. They are babies.

If they are Elect they hear the Gospel of their Salvation. If you want to call it calvinism that is fine with me.

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[God's Truth]

If they are Elect they hear the Gospel of their Salvation. If you want to call it calvinism that is fine with me.

Show the scripture that says babies hear the gospel before they die.

 

[beloved57]

Babies do not hear the gospel of Calvinism, or any gospel. They are babies.

You have no scripture that says babies hear the message.

If babies that are Sheep/Elect don't hear the Gospel, Jesus lied when He said in Jn 10:16

6*And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

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[Lon]

The Scriptures explain why some don't ever get saved:

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (Jn.3:19-21).​

Right, so even in your theology, there are men that hate the light. Doesn't that make men already predestined? Is it just lucky how you were born at that point? Think about it, please. I'm saying it isn't a Calvinist specific discussion. It is a scripture specific discussion. BTW, am I talking to myself? Not vitriolic, I'm just wanting to make sure my observations are making sense to you as well as me. I'm just trying to ensure I'm communicating: Does at least my questions and reasoning make perfect sense? We may not agree, but I'm trying to see if we at least are thinking alike. Thanks. -Lon
​

Here the reason some are not saved is because of their own actions, and not because they were not chosen by God to be saved. Here is another reason why some people are neversaved:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

This passage proves that even those who are perishing could have been saved if their minds were not blinded to the light of the gospel. Those perishing are not perishing because the LORD determined beforehand that they would not be saved.

It would allow for Satan to be the one who decides who is saved and not saved, wouldn't it? Again, I'm just trying to 'think' with you through the scriptures. I'm not giving Calvinist conclusions, just trying to think 'with' you regarding the scriptures. As such, this is pre-Calvinist discussion, or rather, discussion about scriptures for scriptures' sake, that we'd both consider them together and come up with any mutual conclusions. We depart after that, I'm just trying to show in any way where we are together. I believe looking at scripture between us is best for both of us mutually. Thanks. -Lon

 

[God's Truth]

If babies that are Sheep/Elect don't hear the Gospel, Jesus lied when He said in Jn 10:16

6*And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

That scripture does not say the gospel is preached to babies before they die.

You have now proven you do not preach what the scriptures say.

 

[beloved57]

That scripture does not say the gospel is preached to babies before they die.

You have now proven you do not preach what the scriptures say.

It says the Sheep Shall hear His voice.

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[God's Truth]

Right, so even in your theology, there are men that hate the light. Doesn't that make men already predestined? Is it just lucky how you were born at that point? Think about it, please. I'm saying it isn't a Calvinist specific discussion. It is a scripture specific discussion. BTW, am I talking to myself? Not vitriolic, I'm just wanting to make sure my observations are making sense to you as well as me. I'm just trying to ensure I'm communicating: Does at least my questions and reasoning make perfect sense? We may not agree, but I'm trying to see if we at least are thinking alike. Thanks. -Lon
[/INDENT]


It would allow for Satan to be the one who decides who is saved and not saved, wouldn't it? Again, I'm just trying to 'think' with you through the scriptures. I'm not giving Calvinist conclusions, just trying to think 'with' you regarding the scriptures. As such, this is pre-Calvinist discussion, or rather, discussion about scriptures for scriptures' sake, that we'd both consider them together and come up with any mutual conclusions. We depart after that, I'm just trying to show in any way where we are together. I believe looking at scripture between us is best for both of us mutually. Thanks. -Lon

I understand exactly what you are saying and why.

It is like...some people are just born the way they are, they do bad and they do not want to come into the light.

The error lies in where you say God made them that way.

The error also lies in the part where you do not think they could be taught, persuaded, and convinced.

 

[Lon]

Even a baby.God can preach the Gospel to a baby. John the Baptist leaped for joy for his Saviour while in the womb.

Lk 1:43-44

43*And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44*For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

We all need to pay attention to this. We may not understand it, but it is huge to how we think about our politics and theology.
Politics because it addresses personhood. There can be no biblical Christian for any kind of abortion imho (different topic, but one worth this point). Theologically because you are correct, clearly the babe moved with joy, unless we toss out scriptures.

Great post :first:

 

[God's Truth]

It says the Sheep Shall hear His voice.

So again, are you saying that Jesus himself preaches to babies in the womb before they die or sometime after?

That scripture about sheep hearing Jesus' voice is NOT about preaching to babies.

In fact, your whole theory is going against the scriptures that say our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

In Acts 26:17 Jesus tells Paul he is sending him to the Jews and Gentiles to OPEN THEIR EYES and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. How do you think Paul is going to open the eyes of the Jews and the Gentiles? Remember, faith comes from hearing the word, and Jesus sent Paul to preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Romans 10:15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

 

[beloved57]

It says the Sheep Shall hear His voice.
/QUOTE]

So again, are you saying that Jesus himself preaches to babies in the womb before they die or sometime after?

That scripture about sheep hearing Jesus' voice is NOT about preaching to babies.

In fact, your whole theory is going against the scriptures that say our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

In Acts 26:17 Jesus tells Paul he is sending him to the Jews and Gentiles to OPEN THEIR EYES and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. How do you think Paul is going to open the eyes of the Jews and the Gentiles? Remember, faith comes from hearing the word, and Jesus sent Paul to preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Romans 10:15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

True. Jesus says that His Sheep shall hear His voice Jn 10:16

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