Jesus taught existence after death

[clefty]

so you are saying Abraham lied and Jesus repeated the lie or Jesus lied and Abraham never said these things

I am saying this was a folk tale He knew was popular as poor people “won” He used it to teach about forgiveness not to teach about the afterlife...

So as a folk tale Abraham did not ACTUALLY teach dead people risen from the dead would NOT be convincing as that is DIRECTLY in opposition to the gospel...which is One Man was raised BE CONVINCED...

So the story claims Abraham said that but Abraham ACTUALLY didnt...

Luk 16:29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.

Luk 16:31 And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets,
they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.

As for Yahshua lying...well again He knew very well that His friend was DEAD not on Abraham’s bosom or else He would have told those grieving him that...but it is not TRUE...so He said “he is asleep” and then had to clarify...”he is DEAD”...and NOT he is on Abrhaam’s bosom next to the other Lazarus...

In telling the popular folk talke He did NOT lie but re told the folk tale for new moral...and He did NOT lie in saying His friend was dead...

But if as you claim people go to hades or heaven than you have Him lying...as He didnt say that but said he was DEAD

Why would He LIE? And not provide comfort by saying saying the truth “He is on Abraham’s bosom”...

Because THAT is the lie...the truth is His friend was DEAD...not gone anywhere...



You would think there would be some account from Lazarus about the four days he spent burning in flames wishing for water...or the four days he spent on Abraham’s bosom...imagine THAT testimony...

There is no such account as he was merely dead...not transported anywhere...

 

[clefty]

Matthew 17:3-5 (NIV2011)
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Matthew 17:8 (NIV2011)
When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.


Moses and Elijah may disagree with some people in this very thread.

They may or may not...


“Tell the vision to no man" Matthew 17:9 had it been an actual event He lied calling it merely a vision...

https://www.ecclesia.org/truth/enoch.html

 

[Hawkins]

They may or may not...


“Tell the vision to no man" Matthew 17:9 had it been an actual event He lied calling it merely a vision...

https://www.ecclesia.org/truth/enoch.html

So you mean to say that it's not God who is there but only a vision. It doesn't much sense to create a vision to tell that "this is my son".

 

[clefty]

So you mean to say that it's not God who is there but only a vision. It doesn't much sense to create a vision to tell that "this is my son".

Oh He was there...Peter recalls the event later including what he heard NOT what he saw...2 Peter 1:16-18

What it doesn’t much sense is to argue a vision was created to affirm a folk tale told to teach about forgiveness and not even the afterlife...

 

[way 2 go]

I am saying this was a folk tale He knew was popular as poor people “won” He used it to teach about forgiveness not to teach about the afterlife...

so according to your distortion its all a lie

So as a folk tale Abraham did not ACTUALLY teach dead people risen from the dead would NOT be convincing as that is DIRECTLY in opposition to the gospel...which is One Man was raised BE CONVINCED...

So the story claims Abraham said that but Abraham ACTUALLY didnt...

Luk 16:29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.

Luk 16:31 And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets,
they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.

so according to your distortion Jesus lied as you claim Abraham never said 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.

you said : So the story claims Abraham said that but Abraham ACTUALLY didnt...

As for Yahshua lying...

you already admitted you think Jesus lied

well again He knew very well that His friend was DEAD not on Abraham’s bosom or else He would have told those grieving him that...but it is not TRUE...so He said “he is asleep” and then had to clarify...”he is DEAD”...and NOT he is on Abrhaam’s bosom next to the other Lazarus...

actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence

In telling the popular folk talke He did NOT lie but re told the folk tale for new moral...

you already admitted you think Jesus lied

and He did NOT lie in saying His friend was dead...

Lazarus died physically .

But if as you claim people go to hades or heaven than you have Him lying...as He didnt say that but said he was DEAD

actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence

Why would He LIE? And not provide comfort by saying saying the truth “He is on Abraham’s bosom”...

Jesus never lied

Because THAT is the lie...the truth is His friend was DEAD...not gone anywhere...

actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence

You would think there would be some account from Lazarus about the four days he spent burning in flames wishing for water...or the four days he spent on Abraham’s bosom...imagine THAT testimony...There is no such account as he was merely dead...not transported anywhere...

actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence

 

[way 2 go]

Revelation 20
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them. And judgment was given to them, and the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and because of the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor its image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[clefty]

so according to your distortion its all a lie

Lie? Are parables lies? Or folk tales?

so according to your distortion Jesus lied as you claim Abraham never said 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.

AGAIN...what He told is a folk tale not a documentary on the state of the dead...

you said : So the story claims Abraham said that but Abraham ACTUALLY didnt...

yes the story has Abraham saying this...and why would Abraham actually say something which is exactly opposite the gospel...that One resurrected BE CONVINCED.

https://media.giphy.com/media/RddAJiGxTPQFa/giphy.gif[IMG]

Reduced to your silly gifs again...


[quote]you already admitted you think Jesus lied[/quote] nope He told a parable, folk tale to teach about forgiveness not teach on the state of the dead...


[quote]actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence[/quote] yours inserted the false doctrine of hell and fluttering spirits in heaven


[quote]you already admitted you think Jesus lied[/quote] nope...but instead you have Him lying for saying of His dead friend Lazarus that he was dead and not on Abraham’s bosom...

You have Him lying for not providing weeping friends comfort by telling them the what you wish is true: that Lazarus was in paradise on Abraham’s bosom...but that is NOT where Lazarus was...nor where He said he was

[quote]Lazarus died physically[/quote] yup and lay in the tomb was NOT on Abrahams’ bosom nor carried bodily by angels...can you believe it? He was dead physically body stinking and spirit returned to Creator and Soul “on hold”

[quote]actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence[/quote]

2 Cor 15:18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

Perished...ok? NOT turned into spirits fluttering about...



[quote]Jesus never lied[/quote] Yup...is why He said His friend was dead NOT on Abraham’s bosom...

[quote]
actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence




actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence[/QUOTE]

You keep saying and yet you keep insisting on man’s tradition of hell...


Without a resurrection?

2 Cor 15:18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have [b]perished.[/b]

Paul didn't lie either...nor did he say the dead fallen asleep in Christ are now fluttering about as spirits...

 

[way 2 go]

Lie? Are parables lies? Folk tales?

I am saying this was a folk tale He knew was popular as poor people “won” He used it to teach about forgiveness not to teach about the afterlife...

you say that everything that Jesus talked about in luke 16:19-30
is lies

you said : So the story claims Abraham said that but Abraham ACTUALLY didnt...

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, you say Abraham never said anything
Luk 16:29 But Abraham said, you say Abraham never said anything

the place where Abraham & Lazarus were ,you say lie , no such place
the place where the rich man went ,you say lie , no such place

AGAIN...what He told is a folk tale not a documentary on the state of the dead...

except for the fact that he talks about the state of the dead .

yes the story has Abraham saying this...and why would Abraham actually say something which is exactly opposite the gospel...that One resurrected BE CONVINCED.

except for the fact that Jesus does not physically appear to Christians to convince them

Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

yours inserted the false doctrine of hell and fluttering spirits in heaven

I just believe Jesus and what he said here to be true.

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

nope but you have Him lying for not saying of His dead friend Lazarus that he was dead and not on Abraham’s bosom...

actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence

You have Him lying for not providing weeping friends comfort by telling them the what you wish is truth that Lazarus was in paradise on Abraham’s bosom...but that is not where Lazarus was...

actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence

yup and lay in the tomb was not on Abrahams’ bosom carried bodily by angels...can you believe it? He was dead physically body stinking and spirit returned to Creator and Soul “on hold”

actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence

2 Cor 15:18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

Perished...ok? NOT spirits fluttering about...
2 Cor 15:18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

Paul didn't lie either...

1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

Yup...is why He said His friend was dead NOT on Abraham’s bosom...

actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence

And yet you keep insising on man’s tradition of hell...

Jesus said it I believe it.
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Without resurrection?

yes

 

[clefty]

you say that everything that Jesus talked about in luke 16:19-30
is lies

ok so how many times you need help with this? He told a folk tale...

you said : So the story claims Abraham said that but Abraham ACTUALLY didnt...

right just like the story of Santa claims he comes down the chimney...or keeps lists of who is naughty or nice...

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, you say Abraham never said anything
Luk 16:29 But Abraham said, you say Abraham never said anything

Does genesis have Abraham teaching this? Is there a gospel of Abraham? Or can stories folk tales legends morality plays be told by people using historical heroes?

the place where Abraham & Lazarus were ,you say lie , no such place
the place where the rich man went ,you say lie , no such place

right because when He could have taught on the state of the dead or brought comfort to grieving friends mourning their friend Lazarus He did NOT say their friend was there on Abraham’s bosom next to the other Lazarus...He said he was dead...and wept Himself at the loss

except for the fact that he talks about the state of the dead

it is kinda crucial to the story ya dig? Kinda like trying to tell about Santa without the flying around the world and down chimneys

except for the fact that Jesus does not physically appear to Christians to convince them

sure He did...ask doubting Thomas...he saw and touched One risen from the dead and was convinced...

Exactly opposite of what the folk tale has poor Abraham teaching...

Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

Yup exactly contrary to the gospel which is:
“One is risen from the dead be convinced”...

I just believe Jesus and what he said here to be true.

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Well then He forgot or lied when He didnt say His friend went there when he died...but there he was still wrapped up in stinking grave clothes four days later...

AND NO GOSPEL ACCOUNT OF HIS DAYS WITH ABRAHAM ON HIS BOSOM...

Imagine that testimony...wow

actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence


actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence

actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence

is the man made teaching of hell...

1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

Yup perished...NOT fluttering about without physical bodies...

actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence

Again had His friend Lazarus gone to Abraham’s bosom He would have said so...he didnt so He didnt lie but told the truth...Lazarus was DEAD...and even He wept...and brought him back not from Abraham’s bosom but to life

Jesus said it I believe it.
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

there are many things He said which are not to be taken literally...

I am the door...I am a grapevine...I am a path...I am a shephard...I am bread...I am water...

But yes some even believe bread becomes Him...not exactly Him becoming bread but close...

yes

yes what...without His resurrection we perish? Because that is what is taught. It is not taught we are fluttering about heaven as spirits having died in Him...if He were not raised...Paul is clear...

If He were not raised those died in Him would also perish...dead...NOT spirits in heaven wishing we could eat from the tree of life or physically hug and kiss Him...

 

[keypurr]

so according to your distortion its all a lie


so according to your distortion Jesus lied as you claim Abraham never said 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.

you said : So the story claims Abraham said that but Abraham ACTUALLY didnt...

you already admitted you think Jesus lied


actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence


you already admitted you think Jesus lied

Lazarus died physically .

actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence



Jesus never lied


actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence




actual evidence?
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence

You should not read into scripture things that are not there. You assume to much.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You should not read into scripture things that are not there. You assume to much.

Says the one who reads into scripture the idea that Jesus and the Word are two separate Persons.

Don't be a hypocrite, Keypurr.

 

[keypurr]

Says the one who reads into scripture the idea that Jesus and the Word are two separate Persons.

Don't be a hypocrite, Keypurr.

Are you always going to be a "yes" boy JR. Time to start THINKING for yourself.

 

[drbrumley]

You should not read into scripture things that are not there. You assume to much.

I can't believe you said that....oh the irony..

 

[JudgeRightly]

Are you always going to be a "yes" boy JR. Time to start THINKING for yourself.

Says the old man who is too set in his ways to consider another position besides his own.

Hypocrite.

 

[keypurr]

I can't believe you said that....oh the irony..

We all do that Doc, we look for things that prove our point, me too. That's why I would like folks to study my logic and show me my errors.

 

[keypurr]

Says the old man who is too set in his ways to consider another position besides his own.

Hypocrite.

You forget JR I was in your place, it pinched my feet. There is little truth in tradition.

 

[way 2 go]

ok so how many times you need help with this? He told a folk tale...

how many times are you going to say the same thing
and only
offer conjecture and absence of evidence as evidence

by the way

your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence

Does genesis have Abraham teaching this?

Spoiler

right just like the story of Santa claims he comes down the chimney...or keeps lists of who is naughty or nice...

Is there a gospel of Abraham? Or can stories folk tales legends morality plays be told by people using historical heroes?

right because when He could have taught on the state of the dead or brought comfort to grieving friends mourning their friend Lazarus He did NOT say their friend was there on Abraham’s bosom next to the other Lazarus...He said he was dead...and wept Himself at the loss

Well then He forgot or lied when He didnt say His friend went there when he died...but there he was still wrapped up in stinking grave clothes four days later...

AND NO GOSPEL ACCOUNT OF HIS DAYS WITH ABRAHAM ON HIS BOSOM...

Imagine that testimony...wow

Again had His friend Lazarus gone to Abraham’s bosom He would have said so...he didnt so He didnt lie but told the truth...Lazarus was DEAD...and even He wept...and brought him back not from Abraham’s bosom but to life

lain:
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence

it is kinda crucial to the story ya dig? Kinda like trying to tell about Santa without the flying around the world and down chimneys

Jesus talks about the state of the dead that is the point.

sure He did...ask doubting Thomas...he saw and touched One risen from the dead and was convinced...

Exactly opposite of what the folk tale has poor Abraham teaching...

Yup exactly contrary to the gospel which is:
“One is risen from the dead be convinced”...

so according to you Jesus is teaching a lie

I believe Jesus not your twisting of scripture.

Luk 16:29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'

is the man made teaching of hell...

Jesus taught eternal punishment

1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

Yup perished...NOT fluttering about without physical bodies...

yupif Christ has not been raised Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

there are many things He said which are not to be taken literally...

I am the door...I am a grapevine...I am a path...I am a shephard...I am bread...I am water...

But yes some even believe bread becomes Him...not exactly Him becoming bread but close...

is there such things as grapevines , paths , Shepard's and bread , yes there are.

and spirits and fire , a fire that does not cunsume
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

yes what...without His resurrection we perish? Because that is what is taught. It is not taught we are fluttering about heaven as spirits having died in Him...if He were not raised...Paul is clear...

If He were not raised those died in Him would also perish...dead...NOT spirits in heaven wishing we could eat from the tree of life or physically hug and kiss Him...

Rev 6:9 And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

 

[way 2 go]

You should not read into scripture things that are not there. You assume to much.

just facts
Abraham the rich man & Lazarus all died physically .
Abraham the rich man & Lazarus all continued on spiritually.
The rich man is in a fire that does not consume

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

 

[clefty]

how many times are you going to say the same thing
and only
offer conjecture and absence of evidence as evidence

even Paul offers more teaching on what happens but you reject him too...

by the way

your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence




lain:
your conjecture is not evidence
absence of evidence is not evidence




Jesus talks about the state of the dead that is the point.




so according to you Jesus is teaching a lie

then when He says of His friend Lazarus “he is dead” He lied as Lazarus is either on Abrahams’s bosom or burning in flames looking over a gulf at others on Abraham’s bosom and conversing with them...

I believe Jesus not your twisting of scripture.

which teaching? The dead are dead is why He wept...or the folktale used to teach forgiveness?

Luk 16:29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'

Do you also cannibalizes Him as some say He taught?

Jesus taught eternal punishment

some say He abolished the Law...

yupif Christ has not been raised Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

ok so we are done...had He not risen the dead in Him would have PERISHED not rested on Abraham’s bosom...

is there such things as grapevines , paths , Shepard's and bread , yes there are.

good a reality check for you...but it is NOT true that He is ACTUALLY any of these right? I mean literally...though some do believe we are to eat bread that turns into His flesh...

That fire that burned Sodom and Gomorrah was eternal...still burning is it?

and spirits and fire , a fire that does not cunsume

yup...but nothing about spirits being consumed by literal fires...or physical water relieving spirit tongues...

Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

[/quote] how did he know what Abraham looked like? How close are they to recognize and speak over the din of roaring fires...or maybe fires in Hades do not roar?

Rev 6:9 And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

He saw a woman standing on the moon too...many other phantastical things...it’s called a vision...

 

[JudgeRightly]

You forget JR I was in your place,

Somehow I doubt that, because A) you don't even understand my position, and B) if you had been, your arguments would reflect that, and C) none of your arguments are based on scripture, and some of them even outright deny some scripture.

it pinched my feet.[/QUITE]

What is that supposed to mean...

There is little truth in tradition.

As far as I'm aware, NO ONE who believes in the Triune God of the Bible has appealed to tradition. We have all used scripture to defend our beliefs, because scripture is what we base our beliefs on, whereas you, Keypurr, base what scripture says on your beliefs.

You twist scripture to make it fit your beliefs, and you completely ignore other scripture that contradicts your position.

We take scripture as-is, and let it speak for itself.