Jesus is God

[Trump Gurl]

Along with this verse one needs to keep in mind the fact that God said that He doesn't share His Glory with anyone. Ergo: Jesus IS God!!!

That is a good point.

I think the better points though are where Jesus says he is God. In John 8:58: Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am”, giving himself the personal name of God—“I Am” (Ex. 3:14). Then in John 20:28, Thomas says to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

Also, one of the Old Testament titles of God is the First and the Last: “Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’”. The book of Revelation applies that to Jesus: “When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’” (Rev. 1:17). “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’” (Rev. 2:8). “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end” (Rev. 22:12–13). The last quote applies to Jesus the similar title “the Alpha and the Omega,” which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty” (Rev. 1:8).

 

[Clete]

As I said you have all the same characteristics of a racist person and you have proven it, a racist person will say "all black people are thieves", "all white people can't dance", "all Asians are dirty". You do not know me at all, yet because you believe JW's are a cult and I am a JW you assume you know my characteristics. What 's ironic is the fact the only "delusional" thing said so far is that I'm literally delusional and all cultist are. You say "Cultists are delusional by definition", what is your definition of a cult?

The difference is that racists are wrong when the think that "all black people are thieves" or the equivalent.

It is also false to say that I do no know you at all. Not only have I presented biblical proof that Jesus is the Creator that you have dismissed out of hand, an act that I predicted you would do from the start before I even knew you were a JW, but I also know that you're a JW and can therefore know all sorts of things about not only your doctrine but the way you've been taught to think. I'm quite far away from "not knowing you at all".

And I do not "believe" that JW's are a cult. Jehovah Witnesses are, in fact, a cult. It is not a matter of opinion. The only people who think otherwise are people who are either JWs themselves or who don't know what they're talking about.

And just how convincing do you think it is for a cultist to declare himself to be of sound mind? That's a laugh!

And you can know that JW's are cultists for several reasons...

• They accept it as evidence for their faith when people ignore them.
• Witnessing time is recorded on time sheets and is used as confirmation of their faith. It's a way of proving that they are good JWs. If you don't have enough time under your belt your treated as a 2nd or 3rd class JW.
• They have their own bible. (This point alone is sufficient to establish them as a cult.)
• They deny the diety of Jesus Christ. (This point alone is sufficient to establish them as a cult.)
• The religion was created in the 1870s by Charles Taze Russell who simply made up doctrines that he liked to replace several that the church (the real church) taught.
• JW's have made several prophecies that did not come to pass. (e.g. "Judge Rutherford" published "The Harp of God" with the claim emblazoned on the cover, that "millions now living will never die".) (This point alone is sufficient to establish them as a cult.)
• JW's are not allow to think for themselves. (e.g. If you offer to read JW literature in exchange for them reading the gospel of John (the real one), they won't do it. They'll refuse to do it because they must "be careful of false teachers and apostates".)
• If a JW every tries to leave the faith, they'll lose their family, friends, careers and anything else the JW "church" can take from them. It is very similar to the "disconnection" procedure employed by Scientology cult.

Etc, etc, etc. (Portions of that list come from a website that I cannot find the link for anymore. It's not my intention to plagiarize someone else's work.)

A literal fiery Hell does not exist, my friend, you have been lied to. I am not shackled into my faith by the threat of Hell as you. As you have already seen me show when you die you are no more aware of anything then you are when you asleep.

So says your cult.

I will not debate doctrine with you.

How can how I feel be a lie? If I've previously asked you question and you've point blank refused to answer the question then that is evidence you can't or do not want to, either way you're incapable of answer a question. Stop acting like a child by contradicting everything I say.

Anything you say that you know if false when you say it is a lie.

You only compound the lie with this nonsense.

If you knew what we believed then you'd most likely be a JW yourself as you would know its the truth.

:fotfl:

I'll have to remember this one and add it to the list of beliefs that qualify JW's a a cult!

Not that I ever think you would but I'm 100% sure you could not explain all the reasons why we believe what we believe, for example, you mentioned hell earlier, if you knew what we believed you would know stating I would go to hell would be an empty threat as nowhere does it say the punishment for sinning is a fiery hell and that is what we believe, out of ignorance you stated this though. I'm pretty sure you could not explain all the reasons we understand Jesus to be created by Prov 8:22 or Col 1:15 example, yet you arrogantly claim you know what we believe and why.

As if you belief that something doesn't exist makes it so! It is no empty threat, which you will likely not discover until it has been fulfilled in your own experience.

This notion that I should argue with you as though your own premises are correct, is precisely the reason why debating you is impossible and it is part of the proof that you are delusional because in addition to believing that those who disagree with you must accept your premises, you will refuse to think in any other terms nor accept the notion that such premises need to be established. The very notion that your premises are false cannot enter your mind for fear of coming under the influence of "false teachers and apostates". You're trapped in your own little circle of theological presuppositions which it is a sin to even question.

I'm not debating trying to debating you I'm simply showing your arrogance and ignorance in your statements, its wrong to make up a title for Jesus and use the title as evidence when it is false altogether, especially when you don't even use scripture as evidence.

I have already used scripture as evidence (proof actually) but you don't even accept the bible as the bible and so even this is an exercise in futility because even your pretense at accepting scripture is just that, a pretense, because you guys have written your own bible and nothing that comes from anywhere other than the WTS counts as scripture.

Stating "God the son" is very relevant,

I never said that stating God the Son was irrelevant.

You've made a claim "God died", yet the bible states "Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die" (Habakkuk 1:12), are you claiming the bible writer and God's word here is incorrect?

No,

Jehovah/YHWH to a trinitarian is the trinity, namely the Father, Son and HS, Jehovah himself states “For I am Jehovah; I do not change" (Malachi 3:6), God is three person, yet you claim one of the three-person died and God for a time was only two persons, this is a change in the Godhead, yet the bible states Jehovah does not change, I cannot see how what you believe is consistent with what the bible teaches.

Because you do not understand what the bible teaches. Immutability is a Calvinist doctrine (Augustinian actually) and is not biblical as literally thousands of threads on this very website has established tens, if not hundreds of thousands of times. I most certainly will not debate it with a cultist who doesn't even believe the actual bible is scripture in the first place.

If Jesus as God can die it means both the Father and HS can die, God is, therefore, no more God than man is since he is just a mortal person with immense power. You worship a mortal God.

You worship a god that does not exist.

Clete

 

[God's Truth]

God's Truth please reply to the following points I made that you were silent on with your last replies:

Again, was Jesus being literal when he said "pluck out your eye or cut off you hand if it makes you stumble”, or was he being figurative? Does Jesus literally want people to chop their hands and pluck their eyes out if it "keeps" making someone stumble? Remember, I'm not asking what you believe actually happens to ones who obey and do not obey Jesus I'm asking if Jesus literally wanted people to remove limbs or if he was being figurative.

I have already answered this before.
Jesus literally means it when he says those things.
Listen more carefully: Jesus knows that those who DON'T obey him---they won't obey anything he says, let alone pluck out their eye and cut off their hand. For those who DO obey Jesus---Jesus knows they will obey and stop sinning with their eye and their hand---so they won't have need to pluck out their eye an cut off their hand.

This verse is about the "Son", it doesn't state Jesus by name, I've merely done it out of habit. The Trinity teaches there have always been three in heaven who are one 'the Father, Son and HS' you yourself said "there are three, and they are one" in your writings to me, so are you [B][I]denying [/I][/B]that the second part of the trinity according to Isaiah 9:6 existed as you stated and he only became the "son" when he was born on earth?[/QUOTE]
I am not a trinitarian, but there are three---the three are one and the same. God the one and only came as a Father, as a Son, and the Holy Spirit.
[QUOTE="NWL, post: 689498"][USER="14521"]
Where in the bible does it state or imply "spirits don't die" for you to claim they don't?[/QUOTE]

There are many scriptures that tell us spirits don't die.

Here are just a couple:
[B][URL="https://biblehub.com/luke/12-5.htm"]Luke 12:5[/URL] [/B]But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Matthew 10”28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You've made a claim "God died", yet the bible states "Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die" (Habakkuk 1:12), are you claiming the bible writer and God's word here is incorrect?

When you use a modified version of the Bible, the issue is with your version, not with what others believe.

Are You not from everlasting, O Lord my God, my Holy One? We shall not die. O Lord, You have appointed them for judgment; O Rock, You have marked them for correction. - Habakkuk 1:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...2&version=NKJV

Art not thou of old, O Lord my God, mine holy One? wewe shall not die: O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment, and O God, thou hast established them for correction. - Habakkuk 1:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk1:12&version=GNV

Holy Lord God, mighty rock, you are eternal, and we are safe from death. You are using those Babylonians to judge and punish others. - Habakkuk 1:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk1:12&version=CEV

Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction. - Habakkuk 1:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk1:12&version=KJV

Art thou not mikedem (from everlasting, [ T.N. A lso said of Moshiach, indicating Moshiach’s coeternal divine nature: see Michoh 5:1[2]; see Dan 7:13-14; 3:12 ), Hashem Elohai (my G-d) Kedoshi (my Holy One)? We shall not die. Hashem, Thou hast appointed them for mishpat; O Tzur, Thou hast ordained them for reproof. - Chabakuk 1:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Chabakuk1:12&version=OJB

Whether thou art not from the beginning, thou, Lord my God, mine holy, and we shall not die? Lord, into doom thou hast set him, and thou groundedest him strong, that thou shouldest chastise. (Lord, art thou not God from the beginning? yea, my God, my Holy One, and so we shall not die. Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgement, and thou hast used them, O strong God, to chastise, or to discipline , us.) - Habakkuk 1:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk1:12&version=WYC

Art not Thou of old, O Jehovah, my God, my Holy One? We do not die, O Jehovah, For judgment Thou hast appointed it, And, O Rock, for reproof Thou hast founded it. - Habakkuk 1:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk1:12&version=YLT

 

[NWL]

And you can know that JW's are cultists for several reasons...

• [1]They accept it as evidence for their faith when people ignore them.
  [2]Witnessing time is recorded on time sheets and is used as confirmation of their faith. It's a way of proving that they are good JWs. If you don't have enough time under your belt your treated as a 2nd or 3rd class JW.
  [3]They have their own bible. (This point alone is sufficient to establish them as a cult.)
  [4]They deny the diety of Jesus Christ. (This point alone is sufficient to establish them as a cult.)
  [5]The religion was created in the 1870s by Charles Taze Russell who simply made up doctrines that he liked to replace several that the church (the real church) taught.
  [6]JW's have made several prophecies that did not come to pass. (e.g. "Judge Rutherford" published "The Harp of God" with the claim emblazoned on the cover, that "millions now living will never die".) (This point alone is sufficient to establish them as a cult.)
  [7]JW's are not allow to think for themselves. (e.g. If you offer to read JW literature in exchange for them reading the gospel of John (the real one), they won't do it. They'll refuse to do it because they must "be careful of false teachers and apostates".)
  [8]If a JW every tries to leave the faith, they'll lose their family, friends, careers and anything else the JW "church" can take from them. It is very similar to the "disconnection" procedure employed by Scientology cult.

Etc, etc, etc. (Portions of that list come from a website that I cannot find the link for anymore. It's not my intention to plagiarize someone else's work.)

Lol all the above reasons shows your ignorance in regards to JW's. Below I'll reposnd to each point you made above:

1. We do not accept it as evidence that we have the truth when people ignore us. Some people listen, some don't. If some people did not listen to the wisest man on earth then some will no doubt not listen to us. The bible mentions that people in the last days will be as in Noah's day (Matt 24:38,39), living life until the end came.
2. We do record the number of hours of preaching each member does but it is not to prove who a good JW is, no one in the congregation is a good or bad witnesses for doing a few or a lot hours. There is no such thing as a 2nd or 3rd class JW, this is pure fabrication. I for example haven't handing in a report/record over the last 3-4 months, nothing has changed in regards to my standing in my church, nobody views or treats me any better or any worse, there isn't even a way for member to know other members monthly hours let alone treat them differently because of how many hours they've done. Pure fabrication on your part.
3.The WT society did translate a bible, how is this prove that JW's are a cult?
4. On the contrary we accept the deity of Christ, we simply reject he is part of a trinity or the one God, Jesus however is rightly a God he simply is not the "one God", only the Father is the "one God" (1 Cor 8:6).
5. How does a group of people coming together and stating they understand the bible properly make one a cult? The doctrine that JW's have can be traced back to the 1CE and the early church fathers, none of it was invented by C.T.Russell, tell me a single doctrine that we still have today from Russell that hasn't previously been taught throughout the centuries, their isn't one.
6. Tell me a single prophecy JW's have made, again their isn't one. Do not mistake a prediction up with a prophecy. JW's have seemed to make predictions of prophecies found in the bible, but one could hardly call a prediction about a already established prophecy and prophecy itself. If there is a prophecy in the bible stating the end is soon, and I say I predict this prophecy will come true next year this is a predication about the prophecy. For one to make a prophecy they would have to come up with their own prophecy itself, JW's have never done this. If they have done this show me here.
7. JW's have never been told we should only ever read the NWT, even in the JW app which you can download yourself we have the KJV, ASV and the Byington bible along with the NWT. Nowhere are we told not to think for themselves, we go out and speak to people of different faith and different opinions every single day, why would they not allow us to read other literature if they are fine with us speaking to people who have the opinion of other literature and can simply bring it up themselves,. There is no difference for example with reading an article about the trinity and speaking to someone about the trinity,
8.JW's are instructed to "keeping company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner not even eating with such a man" this is instructed from the bible and not JW's, are you trying to say the bible is wrong in this regards?

So again, how are JW's a cult again, you fabricated point above certainly don't prove they are.

A literal fiery Hell does not exist, my friend, you have been lied to. I am not shackled into my faith by the threat of Hell as you. As you have already seen me show when you die you are no more aware of anything then you are when you asleep.

So says your cult.

No, so say the bible. Where in the bible do we find God telling mankind the price or wages for sinning is eternity in a fiery Hell, he never does. Instead the bible states "the wages for sin is death" (Romans 6:23), NOT 'the wages for sin is eternity in Hell". If the wages for sin is death, then upon a sinful man dying his wages have been paid, as the verse says, if God were to futher punish him in Hell he would be going beyond what he stated making God a liar.

The bible states regarding man "his spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thought perish" (Psa 146:4), the bible does not state "his spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts do not perish but suffer in hell in eternity".

The bible links to burning people as a thing God has never even thought of, "They have built the high places of topeth...in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had not never even come into my heart" (Jer 7:31)

These are the Bibles words Clete, not JW's, you fail to acknowledge this.

I will not debate doctrine with you.

Stop fooling yourself, you mean you can't debate with me, you already proved this when you ran away with the very first question I asked you.

You've made a claim "God died", yet the bible states "Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die" (Habakkuk 1:12), are you claiming the bible writer and God's word here is incorrect?

No,

So the bible writer was correct in saying God doesn't die? but you say God did die. You both can't be correct, so which is it, did God die or didn't he?

Because you do not understand what the bible teaches. Immutability is a Calvinist doctrine (Augustinian actually) and is not biblical as literally thousands of threads on this very website has established tens, if not hundreds of thousands of times. I most certainly will not debate it with a cultist who doesn't even believe the actual bible is scripture in the first place.

You mean you can't again.

You worship a god that does not exist.

And I would say the same about you, the only difference is I'm able to prove my God from the bible, you are not.

 

[7djengo7]

On the contrary we accept the deity of Christ,

Do you even mean something by your phrase, "the deity of Christ"? If so, what do you mean? What (if anything) do you imagine you mean when you say that ____ is "deity", or that ____ has "deity"?

Or, is it simply the case that your Russellite programmers/handlers at the Watchtower Society have conditioned you to speaking meaninglessly whenever you say that ____ is "deity", or that ____ has "deity"?

we simply reject he is part of a trinity or the one God, Jesus however is rightly a God

Do you even mean something by your phrase "Jesus is a God"? If so, what do you mean? What (if anything) do you imagine you mean when you say that ____ is "a God"?

Or, is it simply the case that your Russellite programmers/handlers at the Watchtower Society have conditioned you to speaking meaninglessly whenever you say that ____ is "a God"?

he simply is not the "one God", only the Father is the "one God" (1 Cor 8:6).

Notice how you throw in your word, "the", despite the fact that there is no basis, in Paul's words, for your so doing. In 1 Corinthians 8:6, Paul writes:

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.​

Unlike you, Paul says "there is but one God, the Father"; whereas you are warrantlessly shoving your word, "the", into the text, so as to have it say, "there is but THE one God, the Father". What do you imagine you are achieving by doing this?

And, will you be consistent with yourself by applying that same procedure to the other part of Paul's words, as well--so as to have it to say, "there is but...THE one Lord Jesus Christ"--or will you be a hypocrite, and refuse to do so?

As a Russellite cultist, you're definitely devil-led, and the devil's in your details--such as in your contrived, extra-Biblical verbal forms. Your father, the devil, is all up in the language games you've been conditioned (by your programmers/handlers at the Watchtower Society) into playing against your Russellite cult's unwary marks.

Nowhere in the Bible, of course, do we find your phrase, "the 'one God'". Since the Bible does not use your phrase, "the 'one God'", the Bible means nothing by your phrase, "the 'one God'". Of course, you and I both know that you have no hope of rationally accounting for this meaningless, extra-Biblical phrase of yours.

Beyond these points, we also observe that, in 1 Corinthian 8:6, in no way, shape, nor form does Paul state, or imply, that Jesus is not YHWH. But, as a Russellite Christ-despiser, that's what you wish were true--that Jesus is not YHWH; that's what you wish Paul were telling you. But Paul's not telling you that; rather, your father, the devil, and your programmers/handlers at the Watchtower Society--all being your fellow Christ-despisers--are telling you that Jesus is not YHWH.​

 

[Clete]

And I would say the same about you, the only difference is I'm able to prove my God from the bible, you are not.

Except that I have and you ignore it. Accept it man, you aren't here to actually debate. You're hear to repeat talking points fed to you by your leaders. There is literally zero hope of anyone saying anything that would move you an inch.

And, in fact, demonstrating exactly that has been my real motive over these last couple of days.



I say the following to all those who read my posts who might be tempted to try and engage these fools when they come to your door....

It is utter futility - a totally foolish and even dangerous waste of time to invite any JW into your house to discuss a word about their religion. There isn't any objection, no piece of evidence, no argument that they haven't been hardened against. Their hearts are made of granite. They are not there (or here) to be convinced of anything. They are not there to have any sort of discussion that resembles an honest exchange of ideas. There is no possibility that either participant in any exchange with a JW will be edified, educated or otherwise improved. The only possibilities are that you as a believer will be moved toward shipwrecking your faith and/or the cultist will be further cemented into his delusion. If anything else were the case, they'd have never allowed the young fool to knock on your door. This is part of the reason they come in pairs so that if one starts to get squishy, the other can rush to the rescue and either retrieve the "debate" or end it and get the faltering "brother" the heck out of your house. You cannot hope to win over a JW to your side. They are literally lost souls that should just be avoided.

Yes, they will count every such avoidance as a victory but it doesn't matter because they'd call anything you do a victory, no matter what you say or don't say. If you don't argue with them they count it as a victory, if you do argue with them they call that a victory too. It doesn't matter whether they've actually won the debate or not, they will still claim that they've proven their case and that you haven't even if the exact opposite has actually taken place. YOU CANNOT WIN IN THEIR EYES. Trying to do so only feeds their delusion and furthers their cause.

Now, to be fair, I should point out that there are, of course, exceptions but they are so rare, so few and far between that it's hardly worth mentioning. Unless you're practically a professional debater (like Bob Enyart, for example) then you're wasting your time and very likely being counter productive by engaging these fools who have received long training on how not to be moved a single inch by anything you might say or do. And even if you are a very skilled apologist, as some on this thread clearly are, the likelihood is that the most profitable thing about any exchange you might have with a JW is if you were to record it and use it as evidence that JWs are utterly intractable, which incidentally, is a really nice aspect of internet forum debates in that they are basically recorded by default.

Clete

P.S. Now, you hide and watch. NWL will not be able to resist attempting to bait me by claiming victory (again) and saying that I'm a coward (again) or whatever other nonsense he can think of. He'll go running to his leaders to show off his victory against the bigoted jerks on TOL, yada, yada, yada. Or, if he is a leader (which is likely) he'll use it as training material for new recruits (with this last post deleted, of course). This, or something very similar, was the destiny of any exchange that anyone happen to have with this fool.

 

[Trump Gurl]

Jesus says he is God. In John 8:58: Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am”, giving himself the personal name of God—“I Am” (Ex. 3:14). Then in John 20:28, Thomas says to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

Also, one of the Old Testament titles of God is the First and the Last: “Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’”. The book of Revelation applies that to Jesus: “When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’” (Rev. 1:17). “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’” (Rev. 2:8). “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end” (Rev. 22:12–13). The last quote applies to Jesus the similar title “the Alpha and the Omega,” which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty” (Rev. 1:8).

 

[NWL]

When you use a modified version of the Bible, the issue is with your version, not with what others believe.

Are You not from everlasting, O Lord my God, my Holy One? We shall not die. O Lord, You have appointed them for judgment; O Rock, You have marked them for correction. - Habakkuk 1:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...2&version=NKJV

Art not thou of old, O Lord my God, mine holy One? wewe shall not die: O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment, and O God, thou hast established them for correction. - Habakkuk 1:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk1:12&version=GNV

Holy Lord God, mighty rock, you are eternal, and we are safe from death. You are using those Babylonians to judge and punish others. - Habakkuk 1:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk1:12&version=CEV

Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction. - Habakkuk 1:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk1:12&version=KJV

Art thou not mikedem (from everlasting, [ T.N. A lso said of Moshiach, indicating Moshiach’s coeternal divine nature: see Michoh 5:1[2]; see Dan 7:13-14; 3:12 ), Hashem Elohai (my G-d) Kedoshi (my Holy One)? We shall not die. Hashem, Thou hast appointed them for mishpat; O Tzur, Thou hast ordained them for reproof. - Chabakuk 1:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Chabakuk1:12&version=OJB

Whether thou art not from the beginning, thou, Lord my God, mine holy, and we shall not die? Lord, into doom thou hast set him, and thou groundedest him strong, that thou shouldest chastise. (Lord, art thou not God from the beginning? yea, my God, my Holy One, and so we shall not die. Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgement, and thou hast used them, O strong God, to chastise, or to discipline , us.) - Habakkuk 1:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk1:12&version=WYC

Art not Thou of old, O Jehovah, my God, my Holy One? We do not die, O Jehovah, For judgment Thou hast appointed it, And, O Rock, for reproof Thou hast founded it. - Habakkuk 1:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk1:12&version=YLT

A modified version of the bible?

The NWT reads

(Habakkuk 1:12) "..Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. O Jehovah, you appointed them to execute judgment; My Rock, you established them for punishment.".

As do the below versions, to name a few:

NIV: LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, you will never die.
CSB: Are you not from eternity, LORD my God? My Holy One, you will not die.
HCSB: Are you not from eternity, LORD my God? My Holy One, you will not die.
AMB: Art not thou from of old, O LORD, my holy God? Thou diest not!"
TEB: "Art not thou from of old, O Yahweh my God, my Holy One? Thou diest not!"

Are these versions too also modified, even the most used bible today after the KJV, namely the NIV?

Jewish scribes too eager to preserve the word of OT made eighteen emendations in the Hebrew text of the Scriptures, this is undisputed by scholars today. Such changes were assumed corrections, the people who made these are recorded in history as the "sopherim". However, the Masoretes, scribal successors of the sopherim, noted these alterations, making a record of them in the margin of the Hebrew text. These notes are known as the Masorah. One of the Eighteen Emendations of the Sopherim, or tiqqunei sopherim, is to be found in Habakkuk 1:12. Some translations, such as the King James Version, render Habakkuk 1:12 in accord with the Masoretic Hebrew text as changed by the sopherim. Thus, they read, "we shall not die." THe NWT along with the NIV and other translation renders Hab 1:12 according to the unaltered version that we have today which states in an address to Jehovah, "you do not die".

Scholar C. D. Ginsburg made the following significant comments regarding Habakkuk 1:12:"All the ancient records emphatically state that this exhibits the corrected text by the Sopherim and that the original reading was: "Art thou not from everlasting? O Lord my God, mine Holy One, thou diest not."

You are ignorant of these facts and thus embarrass yourself by claiming the altered text by the sopherim is the correct one.

 

[NWL]

I'm able to prove my God from the bible, you are not.

Except that I have and you ignore it.

I ignored it? Where and when did I ignore it, do you mean I didn't accept your interpretation of evidence Jesus was the one God. I replied back to all your reasoning on Jesus being God so I hardly ignored it, in fact, it was you who ignored my points along with my question, so telling me I'm the one who ignored you is rich indeed, coming from you.

Accept it man, you aren't here to actually debate. You're hear to repeat talking points fed to you by your leaders. There is literally zero hope of anyone saying anything that would move you an inch.

As I've said before if someone was able to show me consistently from the bible that the trinity or any other belief was true that was different to my understanding from the bible I would change my view. I have no reason to lie, if all I wanted to do was debate and ignore anything anyone throws at me I would simply admit it, what would I lose, nothing. You assume too much about me. You know nothing about JW's, stop saying nonsense such as "you're hear to repeat talking points fed to you by your leaders", my church do not teach anyone who to defend the bible or teach them talking points in regards to anything I've said, again this is pure fabrication.

And, in fact, demonstrating exactly that has been my real motive over these last couple of days.

My real motive is to engage in discussion with people, this is a forum is it not, what else is there to do other than talk?

P.S. Now, you hide and watch. NWL will not be able to resist attempting to bait me by claiming victory (again) and saying that I'm a coward (again) or whatever other nonsense he can think of. He'll go running to his leaders to show off his victory against the bigoted jerks on TOL, yada, yada, yada. Or, if he is a leader (which is likely) he'll use it as training material for new recruits (with this last post deleted, of course). This, or something very similar, was the destiny of any exchange that anyone happen to have with this fool.

Lool you do make me laugh sometimes. I'm not here to bait you, if you haven't noticed you're the one who won't leave me alone, I'm the one who stopped talking to you when you made it clear you didn't want to engage with me and yet here you are now claiming I'm the one who is unable to resist messaging you and claiming victory. I've never called you a coward my friend, I've only stated the truth, you refuse to engage with me as you lack the ability and the doctrine, this was clearly demonstrated when you refused to answer a simple question but instead chose to run.

He'll go running to his leaders to show off his victory against the bigoted jerks on TOL, yada, yada, yada

Stop trying to incite hate against me by falsely asserting I believe people on TOL are bigots, if anyone is a bigot its you as you're the one who discriminates against JW's.

Stop messaging me and then claiming I'm the one trying to bait you. If you keep replying to my posts I'm going to keep replying to yours, its that simple.

 

[Clete]

Stop messaging me and then claiming I'm the one trying to bait you. If you keep replying to my posts I'm going to keep replying to yours, its that simple.

Do you mean quoting your posts?




I've never once sent NWL any private messages or corresponded with him in any way whatsoever except for in this thread.

 

[NWL]

I have already answered this before.
Jesus literally means it when he says those things.
Listen more carefully: Jesus knows that those who DON'T obey him---they won't obey anything he says, let alone pluck out their eye and cut off their hand. For those who DO obey Jesus---Jesus knows they will obey and stop sinning with their eye and their hand---so they won't have need to pluck out their eye an cut off their hand.

Youre reasoning is adding to scripture and pure speculation, you say "Jesus knows they will obey and stop sinning with their eye and their hand---so they won't have need to pluck out their eye an cut off their hand", where does the text say this or express the thought? It doesn't, it's pure fabrication in order to escape out of the tricky situation you're in. I've already showed you where people have sinned in the bible with the apostles stating to the congregation "stop sinning", it is, therefore evident people were sinning so much so they the apostles had to write to them. You say "Jesus knows they will obey and stop sinning with their eye and their hand", tell me, what chrsitian today no longer sins with their eye and their hand? I no JW's and other non-JW Christians who sin all the time and still sin according to the eye and hand, tell me, should they cut of their hand and pluck out their eye as Jesus commanded?

You fail to realise Jesus made tonnes of figurative comments just like his comment of "I am in you", for example, Jesus said "I am the door" (John 10:9), so is Jesus a literal door? Jesus said “I am the bread of life" (John 6:35) , is Jesus a literal piece of bread? Jesus said, "I am the fine shepherd" (John 10:11), Jesus call himself a shepherd, so was he a literal shepherd ?

I could reference hundreds of examples of Jesus speaking figuratively, would you claim every single time Jesus spoke he was being literal, I would think not, yet you assume this with verses such as 2 Corinthians 13:5.

I am not a trinitarian, but there are three---the three are one and the same. God the one and only came as a Father, as a Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Then how is it possible Jesus took the scroll from the hand of the one sitting on the throne? Why can you not simply answer the question?

There are many scriptures that tell us spirits don't die.

Here are just a couple:
Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Matthew 10”28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell?

My friend, how at all do the two above verses express anywhere that spirits don't die? Luke 12:5 simply states to man "Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell", where does it state the spirit does not die? Matthew 10:28, which parallels Luke 12:5 states "And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna." (Matthew 10:28). Clearly the soul and spirit can be killed, you claim it cannot? Again, how do any of these verses show the spirit doesn't die?

-------------------------------------------------------

Please show me how John didn't separate Jesus from the "one who is, was and is coming" by the above? If you don't I can only assume you claim was a baseless one and false.

Again answer it directly! If you believe God is three persons who is one then are you saying the "one God" was sitting on the throne and the "one God" was the Lamb who took the scroll from the "one Gods" hand?

Again, please note that no scholars today agree that 1 John 5:7 and the rendering "There are three, and the three are one and the same" is a spurious text, are you a KJV only advocate? By your repeated claim of this rendering are you suggesting it is the correct rendering?

If Jesus and the Father are the same person then why does it state that the Father did things through Jesus? How is it possible the Father created the universe through Jesus if Jesus was the Father who created all things?Father who created all things according to Hebrews 1:1,2?

 

[NWL]

Do you mean quoting your posts?




I've never once sent NWL any private messages or corresponded with him in any way whatsoever except for in this thread.

Yes I mean quoting my posts

 

[God's Truth]

If you believe a being is made up of a spirit and a body and it stated the being Jesus died then we should take Scripture for what it says and believe both his spirit and body died.

No scripture says the spirit dies. Angels are spirit and they don't die. God is Spirit and doesn't die.

You believe man has a spirit that is immortal, where is this ever expressed in the bible? I've said this many times but your belief structure is ridiculed in assumptions.

That is not true.
I give scripture for every thing I say.

You prove your beliefs are assumptions when you say a human is made up of a spirit and a body so it means the spirit dies.

Don't you see you called my beliefs the very thing your beliefs are?

If Jesus was God as man and "died" but you claim his spirit lived then are you saying only Jesus humanity, "him being human", died.

No one's spirit dies.

Again you've avoided answering my question and also avoided the point I raised.

Stop saying that untruthful lthing about me. I don't avoid answering you. You are the one who avoids.

Again answer it directly! If you believe God is three persons who is one then are you saying the "one God" was sitting on the throne and the "one God" was the Lamb who took the scroll from the "one Gods" hand?

I already answered you.
Go back and read what I said about it and then we will talk about it some more. I'm not going to keep explaining it to you and then you lie and say I didn't.

Again, please note that no scholars today agree that 1 John 5:7 and the rendering "There are three, and the three are one and the same" is a spurious text, are you a KJV only advocate? By your repeated claim of this rendering are you suggesting it is the correct rendering?

What does it matter if no scholars agree on it?
I use the KJV along side of other translations I use, but never without it.
'One' means 'the same'.

How does what you said answer if Jesus was both the both the one "sitting on the throne" and "the lamb who took the scroll" from the "one sitting on the throne". You are clearly having difficulty answering the question, do not just makeup waffle in an attempt to answer the question, if you realize you can't be humble enough to admit you can't.

I have explained it to you more than once. Stop lying. It is a bad tactic of yours.

How does the above prove what I've said is inaccurate as you claim, simply making a claim and then quoting scripture that nowhere go against my claim does not prove I'm being inaccurate, where is your explanation as to how I'm inaccurate?

Please show me how John didn't separate Jesus from the "one who is, was and is coming" by the above? If you don't I can only assume you claim was a baseless one and false.

Revelation 1

¹⁷ And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

¹⁸I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.



You said that Jesus is NOT God and NOT the Beginning and the End and NOT the Alpha and the Omega. The First and the Last means the beginning and the end and the Alpha and the Omega.


Notice you didn't address what I say, and that you waffle and assume, and you can't explain, and aren't humble enough to admit it.
You are guilty of every thing you falsely accuse me of being and doing, and more.

 

[God's Truth]

You stated, "God can't sin, and , Jesus is God come as a man", so since you stated God can't sin and you believe Jesus was God come as man when on earth you must believe Jesus couldn't sin.

You said I said something I didn't say. You should be more careful about it.

If you're stating you believe Jesus as man could sin then even better!

God can't sin, and Jesus is God come in the flesh as a man. Jesus went through temptations as men do in the desert for a time.

My point is still relevant, an Angel could have done the things Jesus did, there was no reason at all that only Jesus could have done what Jesus did. I would still like to hear how what I'm saying is incorrect according to bible principle.

Your beliefs are full of assumptions.

God didn't have an angel do it. So why do you keep assuming an angel could do it?

Prove with the scriptures where God had an angel come as a man, or that an angel could have done it.

Prove it or be humble enough to say you made a mistake and are full of falseness and assumptions.

Don't waffle around now and keep with your messed up story.

 

[God's Truth]

The Father is a spirit - "true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:23, 24)
Angels are spirits - "Are not all angels ministering spirits" (Hebrews 1:14)
Jesus is a spirit - "So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Corinthians 15:45)

Being a "spirit" is in relation to their boldly form, a man on earth is made of flesh, the people of heaven are spirits. You again make the mistake of having an attribute of God as meaning the person is God, Jesus being a spirit is no more proof he is God than Angels being spirits are God, reasoning needs to be consistent.

You got lost trying to figure out how to waffle out of something.

Try dealing with the scriptures I gave you.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

 

[God's Truth]

You've previously stated "only Jesus has the names of God, therefore he must be God" (paraphrase) and "no other persons, such as Angels or saviours have had all the names of God". These two points are an argument from silence, an argument from silence is to express something it true based on the absence of evidence, rather than its presence.

I GAVE SCRIPTURES where JESUS HAS all the names God has.
You have NOT shown where that applies to anyone else---but you say it does!

We have to go by what is written and not about what is not written!

You are full of assumptions.

 

[God's Truth]

It's like me saying "since no one has ever told me I'm ugly I must be beautiful" or "since I've never died I must be immortal",

What you say from that part and on is too dumb, dishonest, and too much waffling that I won’t even read further.

 

[God's Truth]

NWL



Revelation 1


¹⁷ And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

¹⁸I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.




That is Jesus saying HE IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST.

He says he lives and was dead.


Isaiah 48:12 Listen to me, Jacob,

Israel, whom I have called:

I am he;

I am the first and I am the last.

13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,

and my right hand spread out the heavens;

when I summon them,

they all stand up together.


Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.


Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


You need to deal with this.

 

[God's Truth]

Youre reasoning is adding to scripture and pure speculation,

No, but it is exactly what you do.

you say "Jesus knows they will obey and stop sinning with their eye and their hand---so they won't have need to pluck out their eye an cut off their hand", where does the text say this or express the thought?

Because Jesus says to stop sinning with your eyes and hands!

It doesn't, it's pure fabrication in order to escape out of the tricky situation you're in.

That is so dumb. Prove Jesus doesn't tell us to stop sinning with our eyes and hands!

Do it now or take it back and apologize.