Jesus is God

[freelight]

Insights on the divine name......more of a 'verb' than a 'statement'......

Insights on the divine name......more of a 'verb' than a 'statement'......

The I in I AM is not the ID you think of or understand freelight. It is NOT alone, on it's own, it comes with AM...I AM. Not I was or I will be or anything but I AM. I was simple enough for Moses because He is to complex to understand except for the simplicity of His own self assessment.

I was sharing insights from a more non-dual, universal perspective where we recognize that the awareness behind the "I" of consciousness is the source of all intelligence (the womb of the cosmos), the origin and context of ALL THAT EXISTS,....and this womb from which all springs includes all that is past, present and future...simultaneously...NOW. This infinity is All There Is,...and we recognize the profundity of infinity by an awareness of its unlimited potentiality, even though it is beyond our finite minds to wholly contain or even fathom. - again, this pure awareness we are cognizant of NOW....includes all concepts, - all time-referentials, all space-domains and dimensions of existence,...and beyond. If we strip ourselves of our personality and ego-assumptions of identity, what is left? ...but pure awareness itself. When the ego is transcended for the true identity of being,...one realizes that HE is THAT (being pure awareness itself). - all else is an assumption of mind, a laundry list of denominations, mere words.

Now concerning the diving name itself - 'Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh',...but more singularly 'Ehyeh'.....it does not only mean 'I Am' or 'Being' as an existential being, but also includes and is more definitively emphasizing a creative, active nuance of "I Will Be", or "I shall Be, whatever I shall Be" (to my people, as one bringing into being my word, my promises, my prophetic utterances). So 'God' here is 'The Being',...the Existing One, but also the One who brings into being as in the springing forth of creation, fulfilling his will in space-time. The eternal being realized in time.

The divine Name includes both 'I AM' and 'I Will Be', and the emphasis is actually the latter nuance, of that Deity who brings all things into being, and shall be whatever He shall be in the fulfillment of his prophetic will among his people. That 'God' would already be cognizant of 'existing', to proclaim his name as 'I AM' is a self-evident statement (perhaps redundant), an affirmation of 'being'. - so this Deity, is the source of all "be-ing" and "be-coming",...the 'existential' and the 'experiential' (as in 'creative').




pj

 

[keypurr]

The miracle of the divine Son becoming Human is understood only on paradise, we aren't expected to understand it.

We can see the divine and human sides of Jesus from the story, no Athanasius or Arius needed.

I understand it. We are suppose to understand it. But we can not assume or add tradition to our thoughts to do that. To see truth one must clear their mind of traditional garbage. God gave us a brain to think for ourselves with.

 

[freelight]

Church councils, political twists and pulling strings......

Church councils, political twists and pulling strings......

The Roman Empire and the bishops of the church decided on Jesus as both man and God because it was a compromise between different groups of early Christians.

The Emperor Constantine basically called many bishops from that part of the world to take part in the conference. A lavish banquet was served to them in the palace but the meeting was surrounded by armed guards.

They were basically told--as I understand it--not to leave the meeting until they had worked out something that would appeal to both sides.

I cannot help contrasting the simple meals and celebrations of Jesus with this forced meeting of the early Christians.

As a rational and modern human being, the Jesus as both God and man at the same time makes no sense to me.

It is nonsensical, even though I can see the mythic truth of such a theological formulation. I accept both the actual Jesus as well as the mythic Christ so the theology is still meaningful to me.

I just cannot take it literally.

Lets not forget however, that during these controversies and doctrinal debates that Arianism did gain popularity and governmental supremacy at times, until it was eventually usurped by Athanasius and those in support of the orthodox formulation of the Trinity. Also at least one significant council meeting of church representatives, there were very few Arian bishops or priests compared to the rival factions in attendance, so that kinda made for an unbalanced representation. In any case, if Arianism won it would be a different story within Christianity, but the drive to divinitize Jesus won a more popular vote, further crystalizing such beliefs by the sanction of creeds. The study of these inter-actions are among the most fascinating in charting the doctrinal developments within Christianity.




pj

 

[freelight]

God is ONE. - but that One includes many......

God is ONE. - but that One includes many......

Since we are to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, Mark 12:29-30

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

it would behoove us to determine who this "Lord our God is one Lord" is.

That way we would serve God only. Matthew 4:10

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Therefore, thinking believers want to know

does "son of God" = God?

Does "son of God" mean the same thing as "God"?

The scriptural answer is no. The two are not identical, they are similar, but the differences between them dispel any notion of identity.

Of course the Son of someone, is NOT that same person,...Trinitarians accept that the Son is not the Father, and so on. 3 separate, distinct persons, sharing one essence AS one 'God'. I was just playing angles from both Unitarian & Trinitarians perspectives, because both are just points of view, hence the tempation to throw some creative nuances out there for you to play with.

These are all relative notions anyways,....mere relational observations. However, when you put a Trinitarian spin on a 'divine company' of persons who are each unique, separate, distinct....they all share the SAME divine ESSENCE anyways,...As One 'God'. So, there is no problems if you want to be liberal here with assuming a spiritual oneness of Being,...and furthermore,...asides from Christian dogmas or creeds,....one can assume that we all share of the same nature of 'God', since 'God' is the one and only universal source and reality from which we all have our existence, apart from which we would not be.

'God' is the sole reality, the only light, consciousness, truth, energy, spirit....that we all share (or even that we all ARE) that supports our existence moment to moment,......we all live, move and have our 'being' in the Univeral Being that is 'God'. - the mind can slice n dice it anyways it likes.....you reduce all things down to the primal essence,...all you have is 'God'.

This truth or experience of 'being' is 'universal'.




pj

 

[Caino]

I understand it. We are suppose to understand it. But we can not assume or add tradition to our thoughts to do that. To see truth one must clear their mind of traditional garbage. God gave us a brain to think for ourselves with.

I didn't grow up in a Trinity tradition, but I've always known Jesus is alive in heaven, that he IS a person separate from the Father. When I found the Urantia Book I discovered much more that explained the relationships of the deities.

 

[Zeke]

There is Jesus--and he referred to God as the Father in third-person terms. And also said tellingly "Why call ME good? Only GOD is good!"

Then came the later exalted terms like Lord, God, Son of God that were actually established in history much later than the crucifixion.

The Gospel of John appears to me to contain both traditions, for John has Jesus say "I and the Father are One" but also asserts Jesus said "The Father is greater than I."

We have to figure out where we stand.

Because both these different traditions are in the Bible, that to me means I have to take them both seriously as a Christian.

I guess I am somehow able to hold both discrepancies in my mind at the same time without feeling alarmed or threatened.

Feel free to call me a loser or a blasphemer. I can't blame most traditional Christians for thinking so. I just think they are dead wrong. But that's just me.

I would agree on the Esoteric points, the literal wasn't needed except to make an idol for men to follow.

 

[keypurr]

I didn't grow up in a Trinity tradition, but I've always known Jesus is alive in heaven, that he IS a person separate from the Father. When I found the Urantia Book I discovered much more that explained the relationships of the deities.

Yes, he is alive in heaven NOW, but he did not exist until he was born. And yes he is a person separated from his Father. But there is a third part, the Christ in him was God's first creation and that spirit was hung on the cross as a human also.

I have no knowledge of the Urantia Book you speak of. I spent my time on scripture instead.

 

[Caino]

Yes, he is alive in heaven NOW, but he did not exist until he was born. And yes he is a person separated from his Father. But there is a third part, the Christ in him was God's first creation and that spirit was hung on the cross as a human also.

I have no knowledge of the Urantia Book you speak of. I spent my time on scripture instead.

You are close friend, if you could realize that the Son of God was a personality reality BEFORE this world was, that he is the CREATOR Son, having been given such powers and authority from his creator Father, then you would be much closer to the truth consistent with what Christ said about himself and how it is he could return to the glory he had in heaven.

 

[keypurr]

You are close friend, if you could realize that the Son of God was a personality reality BEFORE this world was, that he is the CREATOR Son, having been given such powers and authority from his creator Father, then you would be much closer to the truth consistent with what Christ said about himself and how it is he could return to the glory he had in heaven.

I do know that God used his son to create this world, but that son was not Jesus. It was the spirit son Christ. The express image of the Father, as he was given the fullness of the Father. Jesus was the human body prepared for Christ who spoke through Jesus. Christ is the son of man that came from heaven to save us. We seem to agree on that part.

 

[Caino]

I do know that God used his son to create this world, but that son was not Jesus. It was the spirit son Christ. The express image of the Father, as he was given the fullness of the Father. Jesus was the human body prepared for Christ who spoke through Jesus. Christ is the son of man that came from heaven to save us. We seem to agree on that part.

BTW, what is you concept of a "spirit Son"? Does it have personality? Volition? Will? Mind?

I do agree that the human personality that was Jesus was added to the spirit Son and will forever be a part of the spirit Son, but I don't understand what you keep saying about God the Father having to create through a spirit Son????

 

[keypurr]

BTW, what is you concept of a "spirit Son"? Does it have personality? Volition? Will? Mind?



I do agree that the human personality that was Jesus was added to the spirit Son and will forever be a part of the spirit Son, but I don't understand what you keep saying about God the Father having to create through a spirit Son????

Yes, it is an exact created copy of the Father. In effect it/he is a FORM of God, Phil 2. Hebrew 1 and Colossians 1 tell us that God created all through his son. This is the spirit son Christ, not Jesus.

Also in Genesis we see that the Spirit of God moved across the face of the waters.... Could this be referring to the express image in Heb 1? I think so. Man was made in our/us/ we, telling us that God was not alone at the creation.

 

[keypurr]

Read Hebrews 1, God created through his son who laid the foundation of the Universe. God calls him O God and then tells him that his God elevated him. God and his Christ were the builders of everything in Heaven and Earth. God is a spirit, so is his created son. That is important to know. Jesus was a man, son of Hod, but a man. Christ needed a body to dwell in. Heb 10:5. God provided that body, Jesus. Jesus was born, Christ was sent, see the difference. The logos (Christ) became flesh. The son who was a spirit became flesh to bring us light and die for us. He went into Jesus when Jesus was anointed. Remember the Dove. That is the time when God declared that "This was his son". That is when Jesus needed to go into the wilderness and adjust to the power and knowledge he just received.

 

[Caino]

Yes, it is an exact created copy of the Father. In effect it/he is a FORM of God, Phil 2. Hebrew 1 and Colossians 1 tell us that God created all through his son. This is the spirit son Christ, not Jesus.

Also in Genesis we see that the Spirit of God moved across the face of the waters.... Could this be referring to the express image in Heb 1? I think so. Man was made in our/us/ we, telling us that God was not alone at the creation.

What you describe is the person of Jesus, the Son of God who became Jesus, a copy of the Father, yet ansestral to the Father. He is the creator of our world patterned after his Eternal Father.

 

[jzeidler]

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Col 2:9 For in him (Christ) the whole fullness of DEITY dwells bodily,

Col 2:10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

 

[freelight]

Just different points of view, conceptual arrangements......

Just different points of view, conceptual arrangements......

I do know that God used his son to create this world, but that son was not Jesus. It was the spirit son Christ. The express image of the Father, as he was given the fullness of the Father. Jesus was the human body prepared for Christ who spoke through Jesus. Christ is the son of man that came from heaven to save us. We seem to agree on that part.

The continuing argument here at least from your perspective is just a different Christology, where Jesus and 'Christ' are separate entities as it were,...that were 'joined' at some point (Adoptionists say at his 'baptism') so that Jesus is basically the vehicle of the 'Christ/logos',...so Jesus/Christ (combine or separate them as you wish) are still doing the redemptive/salvific/healing work on behalf of man, no matter....as some co-op effort. - seems like 'team-work'. - ok,...most of us religionists agree with Jesus being the 'Agent' of 'God', anointed and/or indwelt by 'God' (in some form, fashion or whatever degree). So.

~*~*~

Do you see Jesus and Christ joined as one at this moment, abiding in heaven? - If he returns to earth....will it be in the same glorified body that Jesus supposedly arose to heaven in? Much of this is speculation of course,...but what is your view?




pj

 

[keypurr]

What you describe is the person of Jesus, the Son of God who became Jesus, a copy of the Father, yet ansestral to the Father. He is the creator of our world patterned after his Eternal Father.

No, what I describe is the spirit that took over Jesus. Jesus is the body that Christ went into. Jesus became the Christ after the spirit Christ entered him. God created through the spirit Christ, not Jesus. Understand that Christ was sent from heaven, Jesus was born onto the world. Christ is divine, a spiritual being. Jesus was not at the creation, Christ wh spoke through him was.

 

[keypurr]

The continuing argument here at least from your perspective is just a different Christology, where Jesus and 'Christ' are separate entities as it were,...that were 'joined' at some point (Adoptionists say at his 'baptism') so that Jesus is basically the vehicle of the 'Christ/logos',...so Jesus/Christ (combine or separate them as you wish) are still doing the redemptive/salvific/healing work on behalf of man, no matter....as some co-op effort. - seems like 'team-work'. - ok,...most of us religionists agree with Jesus being the 'Agent' of 'God', anointed and/or indwelt by 'God' (in some form, fashion or whatever degree). So.



~*~*~



Do you see Jesus and Christ joined as one at this moment, abiding in heaven? - If he returns to earth....will it be in the same glorified body that Jesus supposedly arose to heaven in? Much of this is speculation of course,...but what is your view?









pj

Yes, they were joined when Jesus got anointed. Jesus Christ are one, not two since the baptism. I wish I had all the answers to these questions friend but I have to be honest, I don't.
Jesus Christ is the Lamb we hear of. I believe that he is with his Father. And he will return as the Lord of all creation. He came to glorify his God and return to the glory he himself had before he became flesh.

 

[keypurr]

The express image of God is the logos of John 1, the spiritual son of the most high. This spirit is the son of man. This spirit came down from heaven to become flesh.

Christ came in the flesh, to teach otherwise is anti-Christ. He did that by dwelling in Jesus.

 

[Caino]

No, what I describe is the spirit that took over Jesus. Jesus is the body that Christ went into. Jesus became the Christ after the spirit Christ entered him. God created through the spirit Christ, not Jesus. Understand that Christ was sent from heaven, Jesus was born onto the world. Christ is divine, a spiritual being. Jesus was not at the creation, Christ wh spoke through him was.

I disagree with that, the Father didn't create a jr God out of a local contractor.

 

[Daniel1611]

I disagree with that, the Father didn't create a jr God out of a local contractor.

Jesus wasn't created. He is the creator. He is from everlasting and by Him all things were made.