Jesus is God !

[Clete]

then you should believe the Bible when God tells you He was righteous and sinless.......yet you are focused on me...why?

He wasn't even actually asking a question. He was making a point based on your previous statements. That point being that, according to your logic, Jesus would not be perfect. A perfectly obvious point that any third grade child could have followed. Are you really this incapable of following a conversation that you yourself are participating in?

 

[Right Divider]

He wasn't even actually asking a question. He was making a point based on your previous statements. That point being that, according to your logic, Jesus would not be perfect. A perfectly obvious point that any third grade child could have followed. Are you really this incapable of following a conversation that you yourself are participating in?

Indeed, it was a rhetorical question.

 

[JudgeRightly]

based on your previous statements

You're responding to Bladerunner.

The original question I asked was directed at Keiw1 (whom I have since banned).

 

[Bladerunner]

You realize that 1) it was a question 2) directed at a Jehovah's Witness, right? Ya know, the cult that rejects Jesus as God?

This is why RD said you have reading comprehension issues.

? did not know. Thanks'

 

[JudgeRightly]

? did not know. Thanks'

Please pay attention.

 

[Clete]

You're responding to Bladerunner.

The original question I asked was directed at Keiw1 (whom I have since banned).

Oh.

My apologies to Bladerunner! I can't keep track of who said what sometimes!

 

[Clete]

Please pay attention.

That goes for me as well.

 

[Ps82]

You are not a Christian!

The bible teaches that Jesus IS God! (John 1 and elsewhere).

You are not saved.

You will die in your sin unless you repent and believe!

"if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” - Jesus

Keiw1 had said this: "He is right. Jesus is the image of God -- the bible teaches that fact. Every christian as well teaches that fact then. An image is NEVER the real thing."

I agree in this way: Jesus bore the image belonging to God.

Here is my view which I hope brings some agreement from the two of you regarding the image of God and how Jesus was the Father God. Prayers that my two points will be clear.

1.)The invisible Spiritual God, which no man is even able to see, created an image ...He created just ONE image to represent himself as the ONE God unto created sentient beings.
a. The image is NOT GOD, but it is very special. How? It was/is a living supernatural bodily form.
b. I've concluded this is why God never wanted men to worship idols formed of wood and stone. They could never represent the glory of the living presence of God. Nor could an image of an animal... for God looked like what we perceive as a male image. How do we know this? Consider Adam's presence, which was created after God's own image and likeness!
c. God is not the image ... but the image was itself created and then by his choice associated with him as The Spirit. Yet, God said, "Let us make man after OUR image. Multiple personages of the God Head in mind but having only one image to represent HIM unto creatures.

2. If you diagram the KJV sentence found in Colossians 1:15 you will realize that it was the image of God which was the first born of every creature! IOW, God had his own created presence before he even created angels and before He came as his own begotten Son. Think about it: God was not created and Jesus was/is God so Jesus was not created. Even if he came as the begotten Son of God his spiritual essence was totally connected to God with out measure. [I won't go into that at the moment/ off topic].

2. So, who was Jesus? Two scriptures will clear some things up for me.
Colossians 1:15 says that Jesus bore the one image of the one God ...
a. There were only two others who bore the image belonging to the Spiritual God.
a. The Father LORD/YHWH of Gen. 2, who also appeared to Moses ... etc.
b. and the First Adam, who presence was formed after the likeness of the image of God.
c. So, outwardly Jesus was God's presence, which had come among humanity having the same image as the Father's ... except his glory was diminished by mortal flesh this time. People thought he was a mere mortal man - yet he was God! Jesus explained to the religious leaders that if they had ever seen the Father they would have recognized who he was!
John 8:19-20: "Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
John 5:37 "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye [who reject me] have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."
IOW, if you [hostile leaders] had recognized me that would have meant you had known and seen the Father as well. But you didn't know me because you had not been given the privilege of knowing the Father.

3. John 3:34-35 tells me that Jesus was Spiritually God without measure. [I have concluded that Jesus was not like God in a box, but that the Spirit of God was passed on to him from moment to moment as God chose ... The Father was in constant contact with the Son telling him everything to say and do and even allowing him to have free will as well.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Keiw1 had said this: "He is right. Jesus is the image of God -- the bible teaches that fact. Every christian as well teaches that fact then. An image is NEVER the real thing."

I agree in this way: Jesus bore the image belonging to God.

Here is my view which I hope brings some agreement from the two of you regarding the image of God and how Jesus was the Father God. Prayers that my two points will be clear.

1.)The invisible Spiritual God, which no man is even able to see, created an image ...He created just ONE image to represent himself as the ONE God unto created sentient beings.
a. The image is NOT GOD, but it is very special. How? It was/is a living supernatural bodily form.
b. I've concluded this is why God never wanted men to worship idols formed of wood and stone. They could never represent the glory of the living presence of God. Nor could an image of an animal... for God looked like what we perceive as a male image. How do we know this? Consider Adam's presence, which was created after God's own image and likeness!
c. God is not the image ... but the image was itself created and then by his choice associated with him as The Spirit. Yet, God said, "Let us make man after OUR image. Multiple personages of the God Head in mind but having only one image to represent HIM unto creatures.

2. If you diagram the KJV sentence found in Colossians 1:15 you will realize that it was the image of God which was the first born of every creature! IOW, God had his own created presence before he even created angels and before He came as his own begotten Son. Think about it: God was not created and Jesus was/is God so Jesus was not created. Even if he came as the begotten Son of God his spiritual essence was totally connected to God with out measure. [I won't go into that at the moment/ off topic].

2. So, who was Jesus? Two scriptures will clear some things up for me.
Colossians 1:15 says that Jesus bore the one image of the one God ...
a. There were only two others who bore the image belonging to the Spiritual God.
a. The Father LORD/YHWH of Gen. 2, who also appeared to Moses ... etc.
b. and the First Adam, who presence was formed after the likeness of the image of God.
c. So, outwardly Jesus was God's presence, which had come among humanity having the same image as the Father's ... except his glory was diminished by mortal flesh this time. People thought he was a mere mortal man - yet he was God! Jesus explained to the religious leaders that if they had ever seen the Father they would have recognized who he was!
John 8:19-20: "Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
John 5:37 "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye [who reject me] have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."
IOW, if you [hostile leaders] had recognized me that would have meant you had known and seen the Father as well. But you didn't know me because you had not been given the privilege of knowing the Father.

3. John 3:34-35 tells me that Jesus was Spiritually God without measure. [I have concluded that Jesus was not like God in a box, but that the Spirit of God was passed on to him from moment to moment as God chose ... The Father was in constant contact with the Son telling him everything to say and do and even allowing him to have free will as well.

Jesus is the Son, not the Father.

 

[Bladerunner]

It was a question and not a statement.
You also seem to have comprehension problems along with your tendency to lie.

and I answered the question!

 

[Bladerunner]

He wasn't even actually asking a question. He was making a point based on your previous statements. That point being that, according to your logic, Jesus would not be perfect. A perfectly obvious point that any third grade child could have followed. Are you really this incapable of following a conversation that you yourself are participating in?

then why use the ? mark if it was not a question in his mind.like I said, I answered it.

 

[Bladerunner]

There is ONE invisible eternal infinite omni-present all-powerful Spiritual God ... but remember HE was/is a Creator. IOW, he creates things! Where are these things? Ans. WITHIN HIM. He is the source of all things and encompasses all things. Now, the first of all creatures HE created was an IMAGE for himself! A whole book could be written on this revelation but I won't. I will merely add my input within a few passages.

KJV Colossians 1:15 -17 [Jesus], who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature 16 For by him were all things created,that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Think about it this way: John 1:1... Jesus was the WORD who was with God and was God; therefore, Jesus was NOT CREATED. He eternally existed as God being HIS WORD. So what was created in the verse above? I'll place the appositive right after the noun it describes. Watch.

[Jesus]who is [seen as] the IMAGE, THE FIRST BORN OF EVERY CREATURE, of the invisible God... 17 By him [Jesus who was the WORD of God who was God and who was seen by men bearing the likeness of the image created for GOD'S purposes] ALL THINGS were created by him and for him. 17 And he [being God] is before all things, and by him all things consist.

ONE invisible God correctly created ONE visible IMAGE to represent the truth about his being the only God. He also created IT to use for his purposes of being seen within the realms he created with sentient creatures. God's visible presence became known as LORD God the Father/YHWH.

Now, so far we recognize ONE God as two personages. 1.) the infinite ONE Spiritual invisible God
2.) God the Father/YHWH whom Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob knew only as God Almighty. His name YHWH was only revealed much later to Moses who inserted it into his writings.

According to Genesis 2, this glorious presence of YHWH/LORD was shared by all of God including HIS WORD. It is said: Let US make man after the likeness of OUR [one] image! The WORD was there as God and as one who was with God; so there is a hidden third person represented by the image of the Father. One might say: the Father and the WORD shared the GLORIOUS presence from the beginning while appearing as the ONE GOD. According to this insight within the Old Testament one might say : When you have seen the Father, you have seen the Son. Or then again in the New Testament Jesus might say: When you have seen me, Jesus the begotten Son, you have seen the Father.

You see they SHARED THE GLORY of the created presence belonging to the ONE God from the beginning of all things. The THREE in one. Jesus requested that he receive back the same GLORY he once had with/shared with the Father from the beginning!

Now, this next verse should finish the concept of three personages and who was Jesus:
John 1:18 KJV paraphrased by me in order to reveal three insights:
1.) placing the appositive next to the noun it describes
2.) putting the adverbial prepositional phrase in front of the verb it modifies
3.) Identifying the antecedents for the pronouns he and him

No man at any time hath seen GOD, THE BEGOTTEN SON, who is [by this time] in the bosom of the Father, he [John the Baptist who made straight the way for the Messiah] has declared HIM [to us as being God the promised Son/Messiah].

Last comments: This verse does not say no one had seen the glory of God the Father; it tells us that it was the first time anyone had seen God as the Son begotten in flesh.

This makes personage number three and all were/are the ONE God. They are HE. HE is They.

Jesus said in
Jhn 10:30...."I and my Father are one."

 

[JudgeRightly]

then why use the ? mark if it was not a question in his mind.like I said, I answered it.

It was intended to show a discrepancy.

 

[7djengo7]

When Trinitarians say "God," they mean the combination of all three persons, Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

That's true; sometimes when Trinitarians say "God", we are referring to all three Persons Who are the Trinity. For instance, Moses, when he says, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." is referring to all three Persons Who are God the Trinity.

If they want to refer to one specific member of the Trinity they will use the corresponding name such as "the Son" etc.

Yes, as the Bible does. For example, sometimes the New Testament specifies the First Member of the Trinity, as distinguished from the Second and Third Members, by using the phrase, "God the Father" -- a phrase, the Bible's use of which is not rationally accountable by heretical (i.e., unitarian) thinking.

Sometimes, however, the Bible uses the word "God" to specify a single Member of the Trinity. For example, Paul, in Romans, sometimes uses it to specify the Son, as in Romans 2:2: "But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things."

 

[Clete]

then why use the ? mark if it was not a question in his mind.like I said, I answered it.

I was a rhetorical question! Go back and read the context. It made perfect sense.

 

[Clete]

Keiw1 had said this: "He is right. Jesus is the image of God -- the bible teaches that fact. Every christian as well teaches that fact then. An image is NEVER the real thing."

I agree in this way: Jesus bore the image belonging to God.

Here is my view which I hope brings some agreement from the two of you regarding the image of God and how Jesus was the Father God. Prayers that my two points will be clear.

1.)The invisible Spiritual God, which no man is even able to see, created an image ...He created just ONE image to represent himself as the ONE God unto created sentient beings.
a. The image is NOT GOD, but it is very special. How? It was/is a living supernatural bodily form.
b. I've concluded this is why God never wanted men to worship idols formed of wood and stone. They could never represent the glory of the living presence of God. Nor could an image of an animal... for God looked like what we perceive as a male image. How do we know this? Consider Adam's presence, which was created after God's own image and likeness!
c. God is not the image ... but the image was itself created and then by his choice associated with him as The Spirit. Yet, God said, "Let us make man after OUR image. Multiple personages of the God Head in mind but having only one image to represent HIM unto creatures.

2. If you diagram the KJV sentence found in Colossians 1:15 you will realize that it was the image of God which was the first born of every creature! IOW, God had his own created presence before he even created angels and before He came as his own begotten Son. Think about it: God was not created and Jesus was/is God so Jesus was not created. Even if he came as the begotten Son of God his spiritual essence was totally connected to God with out measure. [I won't go into that at the moment/ off topic].

2. So, who was Jesus? Two scriptures will clear some things up for me.
Colossians 1:15 says that Jesus bore the one image of the one God ...
a. There were only two others who bore the image belonging to the Spiritual God.
a. The Father LORD/YHWH of Gen. 2, who also appeared to Moses ... etc.
b. and the First Adam, who presence was formed after the likeness of the image of God.
c. So, outwardly Jesus was God's presence, which had come among humanity having the same image as the Father's ... except his glory was diminished by mortal flesh this time. People thought he was a mere mortal man - yet he was God! Jesus explained to the religious leaders that if they had ever seen the Father they would have recognized who he was!
John 8:19-20: "Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
John 5:37 "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye [who reject me] have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."
IOW, if you [hostile leaders] had recognized me that would have meant you had known and seen the Father as well. But you didn't know me because you had not been given the privilege of knowing the Father.

3. John 3:34-35 tells me that Jesus was Spiritually God without measure. [I have concluded that Jesus was not like God in a box, but that the Spirit of God was passed on to him from moment to moment as God chose ... The Father was in constant contact with the Son telling him everything to say and do and even allowing him to have free will as well.

This feels like someone trying to have it both ways. It just isn't this complicated.

He whom we call "Jesus" is THE Creator God - period.
He became a human being at the incarnation and grew His human body inside Mary's womb.
He DID NOT have a human body before the incarnation - period.
He DID NOT have a glorified human body until He resurrected from having been well and truly DEAD for three days.
He retains both His humanity and His glorified human body to this day and forever more.

It isn't any more complicated than that and to deny that the Creator God became a human being so that He could died as a payment for the sins of the world is to deny the gospel itself. Keiw1 doesn't need to be bargained with, he doesn't need diplomacy and no common ground should be sought nor even desired. He isn't merely an unbeliever, he is an active enemy of the Cross and the Christ who died upon it and should be treated as such.

 

[Ps82]

Jesus is the Son, not the Father.

Jesus is God. Now understanding the way that there is The Spiritual God, The Father LORD God, and Emmanuel {God among us} who is God the Son is what must be sought. Isaiah 43:11 says it succinctly : I (who is the ONE Spiritual God], even I, AM the LORD; beside me (who is the Spirit and the Father] there is no Savior. IOW ... The ONE Spiritual God found a way to become the Father and the Son. All three make up the what people call The God Head. All three are the ONE God.

Colossians 1:15-17 reveals that the invisible God created an image and used it.
Verse 15 is the key. You have to correctly determine the noun and join it with its appositive. The verse is referring to Jesus but the appositive does not rename Jesus ... You see Jesus was not created for John the Baptist said he existed with God and was God.

Verse 15 [Jesus] who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
Now watch: In today's vernacular it would read.
[Jesus] who is the image, the first born of every creature, of [or belonging to] the invisible God.
The noun is image and its appositive is - the first born of every creature.

One key to understanding how the ONE invisible God became two visible representations of himself among men is how he used the image he created twice.

The Father bore that created image in a super-natural form and Jesus bore the same image in a mortal fleshly manner.
Because the Father and the Son were both God Spiritually plus his created presence in bodily appearance, these are reasons Jesus could say, "The Father and I are one. When you have seen me you have seen the Father." Two Emmanuels!!!

John 1:18 also tells us that the Son was/is God. In this diagram 'God' is the noun and its renaming appositive is 'the begotten Son'. Meaning that God is the Son!!! Emmanuel. I appologize that this attachment is so big and sideways ... I'm new at trying to add an attachment on TOL.

 

[Ps82]

Jesus said in
Jhn 10:30...."I and my Father are one."

Exactly. Jesus even said, "When you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
Now Bladerunner watch this:
Jesus spoke a prayer and it is recorded in John 17:4-5
4 I [Jesus] have glorified thee [Father God] on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had [which I shared] with thee before the world was.

Where was the pre-incarnte Son of God before he came in flesh?
Ans. He shared the glorious supernatural image with the Father. I figure the LORD God might have been able to say, "When you have seen me, you have seen the image of the preincarnate promised Son of God.

Jesus even made an insinuation that substantiates how they shared the image in times past and in his day.
John 8:19 Then said they unto him, "Where is thy Father?"
Jesus answered, "Ye neither know me, nor my Father; [for] if ye had known me; [then] ye should have known my Father also."
IOW, they favored each other a lot! These men had never been given the privilege of seeing the presence of the Father. If they had they would have recognized Jesus as God, the Son, immediately.

Again Jesus said John 5: 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

 

[Ps82]

This feels like someone trying to have it both ways. It just isn't this complicated.

He whom we call "Jesus" is THE Creator God - period.
He became a human being at the incarnation and grew His human body inside Mary's womb.
He DID NOT have a human body before the incarnation - period.
He DID NOT have a glorified human body until He resurrected from having been well and truly DEAD for three days.
He retains both His humanity and His glorified human body to this day and forever more.

It isn't any more complicated than that and to deny that the Creator God became a human being so that He could died as a payment for the sins of the world is to deny the gospel itself. Keiw1 doesn't need to be bargained with, he doesn't need diplomacy and no common ground should be sought nor even desired. He isn't merely an unbeliever, he is an active enemy of the Cross and the Christ who died upon it and should be treated as such.

I agree, but don't you enjoy the nuances?
Check this out:
Jesus is God. Now understanding the way that there is The Spiritual God, The Father LORD God, and God the Son is what is fascinating.
Isaiah 43:11 says it succinctly : I (who is the ONE Spiritual God], even I, AM the LORD; beside me (who is presently known as the Spirit and the Father] there is no Savior.
IOW ... The ONE Spiritual God found a way to become both the Father and the Son. All three make up the what people call The God Head. All three are the ONE God.
Colossians 1:15 is the key. You have to correctly determine the noun and join it with its appositive. The verse is referring to Jesus but the appositive does not rename Jesus ... You see Jesus was not created for John the Baptist said he existed as the WORD with God and was God.
Therefore, the appositive had to refer to something that was created by God.

Verse15 [Jesus] who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
Now watch:
[Jesus] who is the image, the first born of every creature, of [or belonging to] the invisible God.
The noun is image and its appositive is - the first born of every creature.

Conclusion: One key to understanding how the ONE invisible God became two visible representations of himself among men is how he used the image he created twice. The Father bore that created image in a super-natural form and Jesus bore the same image in a mortal fleshly manner.

Because the Father and the Son were both God Spiritually plus bore his created bodily appearance, these are two reasons are why Jesus could say, "The Father and I are one. When you have seen me you have seen the Father."

John 1:18 also tells us that the Son was/is God. 'God' is the noun and its appositive is 'the begotten Son.'

 

[Bladerunner]

It was intended to show a discrepancy.

whatever?