Jesus is God !

[Right Divider]

“All power and authority in heaven and on earth is given to me”...,

Who gave the Son his sovereign power and authority?

His Father... who is God.

The Son "given" things refers to His HUMANITY and not His DEITY.

Jesus is also the CREATOR of ALL THINGS.

Col 1:15-18 KJV Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

 

[Caino]

His Father... who is God.

The Son "given" things refers to His HUMANITY and not His DEITY.

Jesus is also the CREATOR of ALL THINGS.

Jesus was given sovereignty of his own having successfully lived the incarnate life while subject to the will of the Father.

 

[Trump Gurl]

If Jesus died then he is not God for God can not die.

Are you three years old? Jesus is the Third Person of the Trinity. When his BODY died on the cross he went to preach in sheol. He never DIED and God never DIED, He gave up his spirit of his own will and then took his body back up of his own will and his own power as GOD.

The good news that Jesus is God is that because of his death on the cross, our sins can be forgiven and heaven is opened up to us. If he were not God and he died on the cross, all it would serve is a good example of how we ought to love our friends, right, or an innocent man going to death and how tragic that is. But if he is God, then his death on the cross has infinite value. Heaven has opened up to the human race, and my sins can be forgiven, and that I can receive the life of God that I need to actually exist in heaven, which is my ultimate destiny, where I will find perfect, complete human happiness. That is good news.

 

[beloved57]

I've been meaning to reply to the above for some time but I think the forum went some site maintenance so wasn't able to.


This is where the Trinitarian doctrine that accepts Jesus as the GodMan falls apart. The giving of Jesus blood was in relation to his death, on one hand, you'll say "God gave his blood" but then you deny that God died according to the same logic. Either God bled on the cross and died for us or he didn't, you can't pick and choose which aspect you do and do not want apply to Christ. If Jesus humanity is in union with his deity and the person Jesus died, then it implies the deity along with his humanity died, you'll need to bring more evidence to the table that suggests the diety part of him did not die other than your assertion it did not.

In relation to the forgiveness of sins according to the law and the "giving of blood" (Israelite sacrifices and Jesus corresponding sacrifice) what was needed, did blood merely need to be given without death of the giver of blood, or rather, does the person/thing whose blood is being shed need to die? (please answer if you will)

The answer should be simple, an Israelite couldn't present a sacrifice to the priest and ask the priest to simply drain some blood from the animal for the forgiveness of sins, rather the animal had to be put to death. The "giving of blood" in relation to sacrificial offerings works hand in hand with the death of the animal. Likewise, Jesus giving his blood is in reference to his death and not merely him bleeding for us, otherwise, there would have been no point in him having to die for us, he could have simply drained some of his blood out. This is why Acts 20:28 makes no sense when rendering the verse, "God gave his blood"; it implies God had to have died, which we both know is impossible. This is why some bibles render the verse:

Acts 20:28 "It is the flock he bought with the blood of his own Son."

The other questions too tough for you I'm guessing.

It's fine the way it is. Christ as man died but His union with His Deity as God which died not, gave efficacy to His Blood so that it could satisfy Infinite justice, and give infinite righteousness for a number of people no man can number. Behold the wisdom of God in this!

 

[Lonster]

I've been meaning to reply to the above for some time but I think the forum went some site maintenance so wasn't able to.


This is where the Trinitarian doctrine that accepts Jesus as the GodMan falls apart. The giving of Jesus blood was in relation to his death, on one hand, you'll say "God gave his blood" but then you deny that God died according to the same logic. Either God bled on the cross and died for us or he didn't, you can't pick and choose which aspect you do and do not want apply to Christ. If Jesus humanity is in union with his deity and the person Jesus died, then it implies the deity along with his humanity died, you'll need to bring more evidence to the table that suggests the diety part of him did not die other than your assertion it did not.

:nono: Acts 20:28 READ. LEARN!

In relation to the forgiveness of sins according to the law and the "giving of blood" (Israelite sacrifices and Jesus corresponding sacrifice) what was needed, did blood merely need to be given without death of the giver of blood, or rather, does the person/thing whose blood is being shed need to die? (please answer if you will)

Hebrews 9:22 God cannot die. Jesus was both man and God. If you understood Trinitarian theology, you'd not have hang-ups like the one above. You simply display a lack of grasping and understanding and lack the grace to learn or listen, preferring your own ideas over and against what you obviously didn't bother to grasp in the first place. Read the link instead of creating strawmen to knock down.

The answer should be simple, an Israelite couldn't present a sacrifice to the priest and ask the priest to simply drain some blood from the animal for the forgiveness of sins, rather the animal had to be put to death.

This is rationalizing instead of just reading the scriptures and going no further. If you and I would work harder on just listening to God and not trying to read His mind further than is given in scripture, we'd be better servants and better in conveying what He says verses what we of any group think (passing it off as if it is from God).

The "giving of blood" in relation to sacrificial offerings works hand in hand with the death of the animal. Likewise, Jesus giving his blood is in reference to his death and not merely him bleeding for us, otherwise, there would have been no point in him having to die for us, he could have simply drained some of his blood out. This is why Acts 20:28 makes no sense when rendering the verse, "God gave his blood"; it implies God had to have died, which we both know is impossible. This is why some bibles render the verse:

We shouldn't get so caught up our ideas, that we redefine death. The first death is the death of a body. It isn't the cessation of life, but life of a tent we dwell in. It was the 'end' of Jesus' body. That is all it is. "IF" someone asks if God died, they are meaning something very different, they are asking if God, who is not a physical being, can 'cease to exist.' The answer is "no." If you ask if God can die bodily, the answer is still 'no' because God is Spirit. Read above, Jesus had two natures. "A body You have prepared for me." TRY and remember trinitarians are PARTLY 'arian' in our name. We just aren't going to dismiss other scriptures or make rash statements like many cults do.

Acts 20:28 "It is the flock he bought with the blood of his own Son."

The other questions too tough for you I'm guessing.

Well, I see you have this same accusation for everyone. Your every thought isn't gold and doesn't warrant a response to your every whim. You aren't that great, smart, or engaging. It is a chore trying to respond to you because you have demonstrated ignorance of what we believe (not all your fault because the argument often has a trinitarian arguing like a modalist. We aren't. We about 1/2 agree with you). Second, you make statements like someone "can't" answer your questions. The answer is "Nope, not at all, just not going to take the time to engage your every whim." You ARE expected to OWN your own theology education. While we can answer every one of your questions or points, this is a forum and it is restricted to short responses, not a thesis. You have a bad habit of breaking 'forum' etiquette and trying to make these post very long. I've only written four short paragraphs here. Most of us don't want to go much longer than that so truncate our discussions with you because of the nature of these forums and our use of time. Because of that, most WILL pick and choose what to respond to, and you need to be okay with that.

 

[Caino]

The atonement theory was added after Jesus left. We have to remember that Jesus taught his religion among sacrifice minded people, so it’s understandable that they would “speculate” about the meaning of the cross.

 

[Nanja]

God our Saviour !

God our Saviour !

The Lord Jesus Christ, for the True Believer, is God Our Saviour ! He is the God in the Old Testament who announced this Isa 45:21-22

21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Yes this could be none other but the Preincarnate Christ speaking as the only Saviour of all the Earth, the same as Acts 4:12

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

This look unto me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth, is looking to Christ the Saviour of all people Lk 2:10-11

10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Which Saviour, as mysterious as it may appear, is actually God with us, Immanuel Matt 1:23

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Another testimony to Christ being God with us is 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, this means that God was the Man Jesus Christ accomplishing His Saving promise and Work, for He brought salvation to His People by His Own arm Isa 63:5

And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

At the Second Coming of Christ, it will be the appearing of our Great God and Saviour Titus 2:13-14

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Which only confirms what Christ spake of in Isa 45:21-22

21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

And Isa 63:5

5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

Excellent post Brother!

Jesus is God!

 

[beloved57]

Excellent post Brother!

Jesus is God!

Bless you Sister Nanja !

 

[Nanja]

Bless you Sister Nanja !

Bless you too Brother !

 

[beloved57]

The idea that God's infiniteness played some role in the ransom is unbiblical beloved57 and shows your biblical ignorance. Firstly, there is no such thing as infinite injustice or unrighteousness for there to be a need for God's infiniteness to come into play. After Armageddon, the 1000 years, and after Satan is cast into the lake of fire, Revelation states, "He [God] will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.” Notice, death, sorrow, and pain will be no more and they will be "gone forever". Therefore to say God's infiniteness is needed when the bible speaks of a limit to the injustice and sin of mankind makes a mockery of God if he did use his own nature to redeem man as there is a clear limit to mankind's imperfection.

God has existed eternally prior to mankind and will exist eternally after he destroys death and removes all pain from the world forever, as per Rev 21, man has only been on this planet for a nanosecond compared to God. To say God's infiniteness is still needed after he brings the world to peace and perfection is unwarranted and not necessary.

You say things such as, "God which died not, gave efficacy to His Blood" like this is somehow evidence, this is merely an idea and an assertion, where is the scriptural evidence that states such a thing my friend? Saying God gave efficacy to his blood so that it could satisfy Infinite justice implies the life that was lost through the blood was Gods, how else could you say the infinite nature was in effect. Again, either God along with his infiniteness died along with his flesh, or only Jesus flesh died. You cannot cherry-pick aspects Jesus deity nature and apply it to the death of Jesus without saying the deity part of Jesus died too.

I would disagree with that and shows your ignorance of God ! Sin is against Infinite Majesty !

 

[beloved57]

No, as I said before it shows your ignorance, the difference is that I demonstrated how it shows your ignorance whereas you've merely asserted it in relation to me.

You say "Sin is against Infinite Majesty" but where does the bible express such an idea? Again, you are coming up with man-made doctrine rather than letting the bible speak for itself. As I showed before death, pain and suffering will be gone after the destruction of Satan and 1000 years, there will be no sin after this since death itself is destroyed, meaning no one will sin and be punished by death as a punishment every again.

(Revelation 20:14, 21:4) "..And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire... And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away..”

Notice the above, death and Hell itself are destroyed by being thrown in the lake of fire in Rev 20:14, this is further expressed in Rev 21:4 when it clarifies 'death is no more'. Sin entered into the world and produced death, the bible makes this very clear, "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Romans 5:12). Notice how Paul states sin came about by man, namely Adam, and death through sin; we through Adam inherited sin and death. If death is therefore destroyed then sin no longer exists. So your idea that "sin is against Infinite Majesty" is again unbiblical and nowhere expressed in the scriptures.



This answer is not adequate enough in answering what I asked, as I will explain.

(John 17:22-24) I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me. father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.

Notice what Jesus says in v24, "in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me", Jesus clearly states he was given glory by the Father; in the preceding verse, v22, he states regarding his followers, "I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one". Beloved57, you seem to think by using different words in your response in relation to how christ and his followers each have glory that this somehow negates my reasoning. You state "Jesus shares the ESSENTIAL Glory of God" and "followers PARTAKE of a 'communicated glory'", how does this explain away my question? It doesn't! The Bible nowhere makes such a distinction, rather, it's explicitly clear they share the same glory. Even by your answer, the question remains by what you states, as your answer still suggest others share/partake of God's glory! How is it possible others can partake/share YHWH's glory if scripture states YHWH does NOT share his glory! According to your own reasoning, your answer still implies followers of Christ are YHWH himself as they partake/share something YHWH does NOT share!

You in the dark about the True God !

 

[keypurr]

Are you three years old? Jesus is the Third Person of the Trinity. When his BODY died on the cross he went to preach in sheol. He never DIED and God never DIED, He gave up his spirit of his own will and then took his body back up of his own will and his own power as GOD.

The good news that Jesus is God is that because of his death on the cross, our sins can be forgiven and heaven is opened up to us. If he were not God and he died on the cross, all it would serve is a good example of how we ought to love our friends, right, or an innocent man going to death and how tragic that is. But if he is God, then his death on the cross has infinite value. Heaven has opened up to the human race, and my sins can be forgiven, and that I can receive the life of God that I need to actually exist in heaven, which is my ultimate destiny, where I will find perfect, complete human happiness. That is good news.

How many Gods do you have? There is only one. And Jesus has a God. The son is the express image of his Father, ALL IMAGES are creations. The son is the first creation, Col 1:15. God is not a trinity.

 

[keypurr]

Are you three years old? Jesus is the Third Person of the Trinity. When his BODY died on the cross he went to preach in sheol. He never DIED and God never DIED, He gave up his spirit of his own will and then took his body back up of his own will and his own power as GOD.

The good news that Jesus is God is that because of his death on the cross, our sins can be forgiven and heaven is opened up to us. If he were not God and he died on the cross, all it would serve is a good example of how we ought to love our friends, right, or an innocent man going to death and how tragic that is. But if he is God, then his death on the cross has infinite value. Heaven has opened up to the human race, and my sins can be forgiven, and that I can receive the life of God that I need to actually exist in heaven, which is my ultimate destiny, where I will find perfect, complete human happiness. That is good news.

If he did not die your faith is worth nothing.

 

[keypurr]

This site is still in darkness.

 

[beloved57]

How many Gods do you have? There is only one. And Jesus has a God. The son is the express image of his Father, ALL IMAGES are creations. The son is the first creation, Col 1:15. God is not a trinity.

Jesus had a God and Father and is God

 

[beloved57]

I'm in the dark you say, and yet it is you who is unable to prove biblically the things you claim, and yet I am. You are not worth conversing with as you are either unwilling or unable to reason. If you choose to converse and reply back to me please bring scriptural evidence to back up your claims instead of just asserting and claiming things.

Yes you in the dark about the True God. I have given plenty of scripture in this thread, I started it..

 

[Trump Gurl]

I'm in the dark you say . . . . .

You sure are and then some.

Jesus is God. In fact Jesus is fully God and fully Man, two natures perfectly joined into on e person. I know this is all above your head but try to keep up.

The second deepest mystery of the Christian faith concerns Jesus Christ-The God Man.

The terminology of “person” and “nature” is again used in describing this dogma. The Greek term “hypostasis” generally refers to person and The Hypostatic Union refers to the mysterious union of two natures (divine and human) in the single person of Jesus Christ. In a sense, The Hypostatic Union is the reverse of the Trinity. In the Trinity there is only one nature (divine) but three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In the Hypostatic Union, there are two natures (divine and human) but only one person: Jesus Christ.

Many Christians never seem to fully realize that Jesus Christ is unique in the duality of His nature. God the Father does not have a human nature nor does God the Holy Spirit, but only God the Son does from the moment of His conception. All three persons, of course, have a divine nature.

This dogma was debated for a long time, but today overwhelmingly Christianity accepts it. For me, this mystery presents in some ways greater challenges than the mystery of the Trinity itself. How can the single person of Jesus Christ simultaneously experience agony in the garden in his humanity while continuing to enjoy the serenity that exists in the bosom of the Trinity in His divinity? I don’t know and neither does anyone else. The two natures, although mysteriously fused to the single personality of Christ, do not commingle which allows Jesus to experience agony and joy simultaneously in some mysterious way.

Of particular fascination to me, however, is the very fact that God did become one of us. Why did He? The best answer again is found in scripture:

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son”
John 3:16

The Incarnation is part of the divine plan for our salvation. Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, was the first among us to cooperate with God’s plan by freely consenting to the conception of His Son within her womb. The Son of God became one of us-as a stunning counter move to overcome the satanic scourge of sin. The devil was foiled by God in a way that no one could possibly have imagined. Only a divine person could adequately atone for the sins of humanity and Jesus Christ, in His humanity, played out that very role. It is difficult, in the extreme, to even begin to appreciate the degree of love that God has for us to make His only begotten Son the sacrificial lamb for our sake. If fully appreciated, in fact, we would simply never worry again.

God the Father sees all. He sees His Son dying in agony on Calvary-naked, betrayed, denied, mocked and abandoned. God the Father hears all including His Son’s cry from the cross:

“My God, My God, why has thou forsaken Me?”
Matthew 27:46

What father who ever lived would ignore such a plea at that moment, particularly one with the power of the entire universe in the palm of His hand? But, what did God the Father do with the fate of all humanity awaiting His response? Nothing. His only begotten Son fulfilled His mission and died. His Father did nothing to stop it. Of course, Jesus Himself spoke other words on the day of His death, which in addition to God’s love for us, may also serve to explain the lack of divine intervention. What words?

“Father forgive them for they know not what they do”
Luke 23:34

Those words were the greatest ever spoken on our behalf. Jesus knew that His Father would not turn down the request of His only begotten Son. Did Jesus act as our savior with that request? Absolutely! He was not seeking forgiveness merely for the Roman crucifixion detail nor for those among the religious and political authorities who had called for His death, but rather for all humanity whose sin, individually and collectively, nailed Jesus to His cross.

Christians are united in the belief that the atonement of Christ and the graces that flow from the cross are what bridge the otherwise infinite chasm between Holy God and Fallen Man. Regrettably, there are still divisions within the Body of Christ regarding the mechanism by which the free gift of salvation is accepted, but no difference regarding the necessity of Christ’s participation in that process:

“I am the way, the truth and the life: no one comes to the Father but by Me”
John 14:6

Jesus Christ by His atonement and by His call for forgiveness not only restored us to the Kingdom of God but also gave us a destiny now greater in redemption than it had been in creation. That is precisely why Christian theologians sometimes refer to original sin as the “happy fault” (felix culpa).

The Hypostatic Union elevates Christianity to the most awesome of all religions. Jesus freely partook of our humanity, so that we could partake of His divinity.

 

[Trump Gurl]

Jesus is God
Holy Spirit is God
Father is God
God is Trinity.

Jesus tells his apostles to baptize "in the name [notice, singular, not plural] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19). This is a proof-text: three distinct Persons united in the one divine name. In 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul writes, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." We see this same unity of divine Persons in 1 Corinthians 12:4–11, Ephesians 4:4–6, and 1 Peter 1:2–3.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9). It also clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (cf. Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28; 1 Cor. 2:10–13). Everyone agrees the Father is God. Yet there is only one God (Mark 12:29, 1 Cor. 8:4–6, Jas. 2:19). How can we hold all four truths except to say all three are One God?

And yes, Jesus DID say he was God. In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

The hypostatic union makes no sense

That is your problem. It makes sense to the entire Christian Church though.
Jesus is fully God and fully man. He has two natures perfectly united in one person. The term used to describe this is the "hypostatic union".

The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.

Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus' humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus' actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.

So the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinguishable from one another in terms of hypostasis (the Scriptural term used, for example, in Hebrews, where Christ is the exact image of the hypostasis of the Father), but they are not "separate" (apart from one another or by themselves), as they share the same nature and same energy, but furthermore, as they are limitless, there is a perichoresis or "interpenetration" of the persons.

So there is similarity, but the similarity ends with the fact that the Divine nature is infinite and incorporeal, and human nature is finite and corporeal (as with all of created nature).

Hebrews: "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power (ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ, φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ)

 

[Nanja]

Who is this Judge ?

James 5:9

Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Amen Brother ! We can know without a doubt that the Father has ordained God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to Judge the world in righteousness Acts 17:31; which bears evidence and proof His Omniscience as God; to Know the hearts of all men accurately 1 Cor. 4:5 !

 

[Trump Gurl]

I feel so bad for you. You typed all that stuff up and added pretty colors, and it is all gobbledygook. Go eat a turkey leg.

All of Christianity - Protestant, E. Orthodox, and Catholic - says you are wrong. Start your own religion.