Jesus is God !

[Idolater]

Well, then I will disagree with you and tell you you are wrong. There is a big difference in discussing ideas and disagreeing than arguing. You Clete Right divider and now Idolater are great at calling people names and disparaging them. You don't discuss. You fuss. I've moved on and hope that I will find people here willing to at least look at new perspectives. Have you and you buddies, who seem to flock together on more than my posts even wondered why TOL may have become diminished in members and with people who visit but don't post over the years? I don't mind people saying they don't agree with my ideas and then move on ... but that is not what you and a few of your buddies do.

I called you a modalist. It was a diagnosis, not name-calling. And modalism's not Christian. As a Catholic I can say that with authority, since under Catholicism modalism is positively and permanently condemned as heresy, but I provided an argument which doesn't appeal to Catholicism or Apostolic Tradition anyway, which you ignored:

“ Suppose there are many Scriptures which indicate a distinction between the Father and Jesus.

“ Suppose there are many Scriptures which indicate some sort of equality between the Father and Jesus.

“ Only under Trinitarianism are both of these sets of Scriptures unsurprising. ”

Under modalism Scriptures which indicate a distinction between the Father and Jesus are surprising. Engage the argument instead of wrongly accusing me of mud-slinging.

 

[Ps82]

Just saying. I read my KJV Bible ... have for many years ... and I have found some threads that tie things together. I don't go studying all the different man made facets of beliefs where people are labeled this and that. I am a spirit filled Christian and my Lord knows my name and cares for me. If I believe the Holy Spirit has opened my eyes to a truth from scripture I would like to share it with others without being given a label from humanity or disparaged by being called a liar and worse. Disagree ... move on. If no one is interested then I'll move on. There is just too much rudeness coming from some people. Well, we are off topic for this thread. Y'all have a nice day.

 

[Right Divider]

Well, then I will disagree with you and tell you you are wrong.

Cute... from the person that is wrong.

There is a big difference in discussing ideas and disagreeing than arguing.

Arguments are part of a valid disagreement. If you don't like that, you do not belong on a DEBATE forum.

You Clete Right divider and now Idolater are great at calling people names and disparaging them.

Prove it.

You don't discuss.

LOL... from the one making many false statements and who gets upset when they are called out on them.

You fuss. I've moved on and hope that I will find people here willing to at least look at new perspectives. Have you and you buddies, who seem to flock together on more than my posts even wondered why TOL may have become diminished in members and with people who visit but don't post over the years?

We will continue to express the truth against your errors (and the errors of others), even if that means some people leave.

I don't mind people saying they don't agree with my ideas and then move on ... but that is not what you and a few of your buddies do.

Too bad.

 

[Idolater]

Just saying. I read my KJV Bible ... have for many years ... and I have found some threads that tie things together. I don't go studying all the different man made facets of beliefs where people are labeled this and that.

Modalism.

I am a spirit filled Christian and my Lord knows my name and cares for me. If I believe the Holy Spirit has opened my eyes to a truth from scripture I would like to share it with others without being given a label from humanity or disparaged by being called a liar and worse.

I've called you a modalist, not a liar, nor anything worse.

Disagree ... move on. If no one is interested then I'll move on. There is just too much rudeness coming from some people. Well, we are off topic for this thread. Y'all have a nice day.

I haven't been rude either.

How about engage my argument?

“ Suppose there are many Scriptures which indicate a distinction between the Father and Jesus.

“ Suppose there are many Scriptures which indicate some sort of equality between the Father and Jesus.

“ Only under Trinitarianism are both of these sets of Scriptures unsurprising. ”

 

[Clete]

Just saying. I read my KJV Bible ... have for many years ... and I have found some threads that tie things together. I don't go studying all the different man made facets of beliefs where people are labeled this and that.

There isn't any need to study all the facets. It takes less than thirty seconds to look up the term and confirm that what you've said here on this thread and elsewhere is 100% in agreement with that label.

More importantly, you're lying. You did not get your doctrine from reading the bible. It was taught to you and now you think it's your turn to teach it to others.

I am a spirit filled Christian and my Lord knows my name and cares for me.

David Koresh would have made the same claim as do all his surviving followers to this day.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

If I believe the Holy Spirit has opened my eyes to a truth from scripture

So did Jim Jones!

I would like to share it with others without being given a label from humanity or disparaged by being called a liar and worse.

The label is accurate as is the accusation of liar. If you don't like who you are then change it.

Disagree ... move on.

Tried that. You ignored it.

If no one is interested then I'll move on.

You are the one who isn't interested in debating your doctrine. You want to present your doctrine and then pretend that anyone who disagrees is some sort of jerk.

There is just too much rudeness coming from some people.

Rude? Do you mean like when someone spends an hour or more making an argument and then the person that argument was directed toward ignores it completely? Is that what you mean by "rude"?

Well, we are off topic for this thread. Y'all have a nice day.

You can get us all back on topic by simply stopping with the whimpering victim act and posting something worth the time it would take to respond to, like addressing the issues that have been brought up about the entirely whimsical manner by which you formulate doctrine. A manner that is nearly identical in form (not in substance) to the Yehweh Ben Yehweh cult, where a single word or phrase is taken to mean something well beyond what the context in which it is found could possibly support. OR, baring that, maybe you could explain why it is that even to this day you continue to refuse to give a straight answer about who Jesus is.

He's me, not holding my breath.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Well, then I will disagree with you

Good for you.

and tell you you are wrong.

Now make an argument to support that claim.

See how that works?

There is a big difference in discussing ideas and disagreeing than arguing.

Argumentation is part of discussion.

There's a huge difference between that, and what you're doing, which is whining that no one wants to agree with your position and complaining that people oppose your views and present arguments against them.

You Clete Right divider and now Idolater are great at calling people names and disparaging them.

So was Jesus.

So was Elijah.

So was Paul.

Go read https://kgov.com/nice

You don't discuss. You fuss. I've moved on and hope that I will find people here willing to at least look at new perspectives. Have you and you buddies, who seem to flock together on more than my posts even wondered why TOL may have become diminished in members and with people who visit but don't post over the years? I don't mind people saying they don't agree with my ideas and then move on ... but that is not what you and a few of your buddies do.

This coming from someone who's been here nearly twice as long as me, yet has posted less than a tenth of the number of posts I have...

Face it. You don't like discussion. You like pushing your views and getting people to agree with you. Any time you encounter resistance to your ideas/beliefs, you recoil. You take your ball and go home with it.

 

[Ps82]

Just saying. I read my KJV Bible ... have for many years ... and I have found some threads that tie things together. I don't go studying all the different man made facets of beliefs where people are labeled this and that. I am a spirit filled Christian and my Lord knows my name and cares for me. If I believe the Holy Spirit has opened my eyes to a truth from scripture I would like to share it with others without being given a label from humanity or disparaged by being called a liar and worse. Disagree ... move on. If no one is interested then I'll move on. There is just too much rudeness coming from some people. Well, we are off topic for this thread. Y'all have a nice day.

 

[Ps82]

Face it. You don't like discussion. You like pushing your views and getting people to agree with you. Any time you encounter resistance to your ideas/beliefs, you recoil. You take your ball and go home with it.

You are condescending in some ways in your recent post for me. I've been away for a long time doing other things in life. Wanted to come back and discuss. The fact that I don't have your points and your status for having LOTS of post does not negate that I have something worthwhile to discuss. The fact that you brought up your reputation tells me a lot about from where you come.

 

[7djengo7]

If no one is interested then I'll move on...Y'all have a nice day.

Translation: "I have no intention to move on, whether or not anyone is interested. In fact, you'll be hearing from me yet again, in five minutes from now, in my next post."

 

[7djengo7]

This coming from someone who's been here nearly twice as long as me, yet has posted less than a tenth of the number of posts I have...

I used to watch The Simpsons quite a lot. Slightly tweaking the character, Ned Flanders's words from one (though, I forget which) episode, I want to say I, hereby, have propos'd a toast to the host who can boast the most posts.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You are condescending in some ways in your recent post for me.

Oh really?

And this isn't?

Just saying. I read my KJV Bible ... have for many years ... and I have found some threads that tie things together. I don't go studying all the different man made facets of beliefs where people are labeled this and that. I am a spirit filled Christian and my Lord knows my name and cares for me. If I believe the Holy Spirit has opened my eyes to a truth from scripture I would like to share it with others without being given a label from humanity or disparaged by being called a liar and worse. Disagree ... move on. If no one is interested then I'll move on. There is just too much rudeness coming from some people. Well, we are off topic for this thread. Y'all have a nice day.

----

I've been away for a long time doing other things in life.

No one has a problem with that.

Wanted to come back and discuss.

Then start discussing and stop complaining when people rebut your positions with arguments.

The fact that I don't have your points and your status for having LOTS of post does not negate that I have something worthwhile to discuss.

The point was that you were complaining about something that you yourself are part of the cause of.

Namely this:

Have you and you buddies, who seem to flock together on more than my posts even wondered why TOL may have become diminished in members and with people who visit but don't post over the years?

You seemed to be complaining about the lack of people posting, yet you yourself have hardly posted at all since you became a member in 2006.

Hypocrite much?

The fact that you brought up your reputation tells me a lot about from where you come.

My "reputation" has nothing to do with this.

I was giving you a point of reference for someone who has been active almost daily since becoming a member back in 2015, something to compare to against someone such as yourself who has posted around 1/20th (I was being generous earlier, but I figured I'd actually put the numbers into a calculator for accuracy's sake) the number of posts despite being a member for almost exactly twice as long.

 

[Idolater]

“ Suppose there are many Scriptures which indicate a distinction between the Father and Jesus.

The entire playbook of the Arians (JWs are modern Arians–literally these are the descendants of ancient Arians–just ask em they'll tell you) are all these Scriptures. They will all happily and triumphantly remind you of all these Scriptures which indicate distinction between the Father and Jesus.

“ Suppose there are many Scriptures which indicate some sort of equality between the Father and Jesus.

Arians: Uh oh.

Meanwhile modalists: Bring it on!

So you remind the modalist about all the Scriptures which indicate a distinction between the Father and Jesus, and they're also like Uh oh.

“ Only under Trinitarianism are both of these sets of Scriptures unsurprising. ”

This isn't an argument. It's a fact.

 

[Idolater]

12 year anniversary of the thread, interesting.

 

[Clete]

12 year anniversary of the thread, interesting.

That's one thing I think TOL does right. They don't just arbitrarily close threads because they've gotten several weeks old as several other similar sites do.

Over 4500 posts on this thread alone. I have no doubt that there are plenty of gems in there that would be worth someone's time to read. I get a kick out of reading some of my own posts from years ago. There's lots of them that I don't even remember writing and that I'm glad still exist.

 

[Ps82]

Oh really?

And this isn't?



----



No one has a problem with that.



Then start discussing and stop complaining when people rebut your positions with arguments.



The point was that you were complaining about something that you yourself are part of the cause of.

Namely this:



You seemed to be complaining about the lack of people posting, yet you yourself have hardly posted at all since you became a member in 2006.

Hypocrite much?



My "reputation" has nothing to do with this.

I was giving you a point of reference for someone who has been active almost daily since becoming a member back in 2015, something to compare to against someone such as yourself who has posted around 1/20th (I was being generous earlier, but I figured I'd actually put the numbers into a calculator for accuracy's sake) the number of posts despite being a member for almost exactly twice as long.

I'm laughing. My points stand as it. I will not longer look to you, a moderator???, for any fairness.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I'm laughing. My points stand as it. I will not longer look to you, a moderator???, for any fairness.

Hypocrite!

 

[Clete]

I'm laughing. My points stand as it. I will not longer look to you, a moderator???, for any fairness.

You couldn't have destroyed your reputation and undermined your credibility any more effectively than you have in the last 48 hours on this single thread. Congratulations.

 

[7djengo7]

So you remind the modalist about all the Scriptures which indicate a distinction between the Father and Jesus, and they're also like Uh oh.

I don't remember if I've seen others do this, but I always point out to modalists that they, like their fellow heretics, the Arians, are unitarians.

Also, the moment they say something like "Jesus is the Father", I point out that what they are doing is simply using two, different names -- "Jesus" and "the Father" -- to refer to just one person, instead of to refer to two persons. It may be they are 1) referring to Jesus both as "Jesus" and as "the Father" (which is asinine); it may be they are 2) referring to the Father both as "Jesus" and as "the Father" (which is asinine); and yet, again, it may be they are 3) referring to some other person (or place, or thing) that is neither Jesus or the Father, both as "Jesus" and as "the Father" (which is asinine). Actually, it also could instead be they are 4) using one or both of those phrases -- "Jesus" and "the Father" -- in a cognitively meaningless way, referentless-ly (which would also be asinine).

No one in his/her right mind would say "The Son is the Father" while both 1) actually referring to the Son (a Person Who is not the Father) by the phrase "the Son", and 2) actually referring to the Father (a Person Who is not the Son) by the phrase "the Father", since, in so doing, he/she would be saying "[A Person Who is not the Father] is the Father"/"The Son is [a Person Who is not the Son]".

(I use those brackets to indicate the referent underlying the phrase used to refer to the referent.)

 

[7djengo7]

12 year anniversary of the thread, interesting.

Ha! Always like it when things like that happen to catch my eye!

 

[Ps82]

One way to discover the identity of Jesus is to consider some new possibilities. Reconsider scripture no much discussed or thought about.
One, which opened my eyes, was Genesis 1: 26 God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."
My thoughts were triggered toward truth about God rather than the image he was forming for mankind.

QUESTION: What did I see?
Ans. God already had a literal image. ...

1. I remembered John 17 where Jesus said he had that image [iow, shared that image] with the Father before the world was and wanted to have it back. I happen to believe he knew the Father would do this but he probably prayed out loud in order to inform those listening of some truth ...
2. I remembered how Colossians 1:15 insinuates that this image belonging to God was the first born of every creature. Verse15 [Jesus] who is the IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, [the image being] THE FIRST BORN OF EVERY CREATURE God created. You see the first born of every creature is an appositive of the noun image. IOW, the appositive restates the identity of the noun- THE IMAGE = THE FIRST BORN OF EVERY CREATURE.
3. The image was created for God's purposes and is not the invisible God, but rather a chosen living walking talking visible form which literally shows to eyes of men and angels that God has entered into his creation.
4. I also remembered how OT prophets described how they had seen God's presence in dreams and visions - proving just how super-natural God's OT image was for it could show up in any realm... even as the essence of the things dreams are made of.
5. I remembered how he showed up safely to people rather than a raging Shekinah dangerous full glory as once happened for Moses. Ezekiel is just one such prophet. [Ez. 1:26-28]

• He appeared to Samson's parents to talk with them and then disappeared in the flames of a fire built for cooking. [I Sam. 13:3-5; I Sam. 9-20]]
• He showed himself safely before 74 leaders of Israel and they saw God and ate a meal in his presence. [Ex. 24:9-11]

Now, if the invisible spiritual God presented his created image in the OT to represent himself visually unto men, then he certainly could have produce it once again in our natural realm. In the OT he had names like: Almighty God, The LORD, the LORD God, the Father of Israel - as in Jer.31:9; Isa 64; Deu 32; Ps 103 ...

This image of the Father LORD God was the glorious presence/image which Jesus had [shared] with the Father before the world was. A created image for God's use. [I venture to suggest that whenever one saw the Father they had seen the pre-incarnate image of the promised Savior. And, that this is probably the reason Jesus could honestly say: When you have seen me, you have seen the Father. Another time Jesus said something like this: If you knew who I am, you should have known the Father, but you have neither seen HIS SHAPE nor HEARD HIS VOICE. Yet, if you believe not what I say, at least believe the things I do.

Now why would God have created an image for himself before creation if he did not plan to use it???

Well, these revelations above just showed me one aspect of how Jesus was/is God -the I AM. He was allowed to use God's image to come in the world as Emanuel.