Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[JudgeRightly]

I did.

You clearly did not, or if you did, you still misunderstood what I wrote.

The answer remains the same.

You gave two answers for two different questions.

I quoted the first one, to which your answer was "no."

I ignored the second one, which you just repeated, because it wasn't what I was asking.

Logos ALWAYS means "something spoken, or written" in John's Gospel .

Read my post again, and consider which part of your post I quoted at the beginning of mine.

Honestly, I shouldn't have to spell this all out for you.

If the "logos" in John 14:24 is not the same "logos" of John 1:1, then how can you make the argument that John 1:1 is talking about the same "logos" as John 14:24? In other words, having the same definition doesn't mean that it is the same "logos".

 

[chair]

I'm glad to see that you have no denial of The Son being divine.

No point in denying something that I never even considered.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Dartman,

If you are asking if the words being discussed in John 1, are the SAME words God commanded Jesus to speak, the answer is "no".
If you are asking if "logos" in John 1 is discussing "something spoken, or written", and are ALL the other Scriptures discussing "something spoken, or written"...... absolutely!
God's spoken words were in the beginning, and were with God, God's spoken words DEFINE God, they ARE God. That's what the verse means.
It says; Tyndale 1534: Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with God. 3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men
Bishops 1568: Joh 1:1 In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was God. 2 The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3 All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made. 4 In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men,

I appreciate your perseverance on this subject. My understanding of the Word in John 1:1 is that it is similar personification of part of God’s character and attributes as is the Wise Woman “Wisdom” in Proverbs 8. There is a part personification of the “Word” in the following:
Psalm 33:6–9 (KJV): 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Another partial personification is found in the following and this can help to understand the process of God’s wisdom and spoken word and the ultimate result the birth, development, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus, and his exaltation and returning to God His Father in heaven. What started as God the Father’s wisdom and spoken word results in the Son of God seated at the right hand of God in heaven.
Isaiah 55:8–11 (KJV): 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[chair]

The terms are synonymous with each other.

Which terms?

 

[Dartman]

The First Person of The Trinity commanded Moses to cut two tablets of stone (Deut 10.1; Exo 34.1 – 4), as spoken to Moses by The Second Person of The Trinity (Deut 4.12 – 13; Deut 5.22; Deut 9.10; Deut 10.4), and written by the Third Person of The Trinity (Exo 31.18; Deut 9.10).

I find it very significant that you insert made up phrases to attempt to fabricate evidence for your theory.

Try providing actual verses that STATE your theory..... if you can.

 

[Dartman]

Greetings again Dartman, I appreciate your perseverance on this subject. My understanding of the Word in John 1:1 is that it is similar personification of part of God’s character and attributes as is the Wise Woman “Wisdom” in Proverbs 8. There is a part personification of the “Word” in the following:
Psalm 33:6–9 (KJV): 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Another partial personification is found in the following and this can help to understand the process of God’s wisdom and spoken word and the ultimate result the birth, development, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus, and his exaltation and returning to God His Father in heaven. What started as God the Father’s wisdom and spoken word results in the Son of God seated at the right hand of God in heaven.
Isaiah 55:8–11 (KJV): 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Kind regards
Trevor

You bring up interesting points. And, your points don't directly contradict the rest of Scripture, which is a welcome change.
I'm certainly willing to think about your suggestions.
Thank you.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Dartman,

You bring up interesting points. And, your points don't directly contradict the rest of Scripture, which is a welcome change. I'm certainly willing to think about your suggestions. Thank you.

Another aspect concerning the connection between John 1:1 and John 1:14 is that Trinitarians only want to emphasise “The Word” as the Second Person of the Trinity, and do not want to explain what the title “The Word” is teaching and why it is used in this context. They do not want to accept that the real connection between John 1:1 and John 1:14 is not a physical being, but the moral glory, summarised as “full of grace and truth”. The character developed in Jesus from a child results in the full manifestation of this moral glory at the start and during his ministry. The basis and the potential for this to be achieved is also spelt out in John 1:14 where Jesus is described as the only begotten of the Father, that is that Jesus is the Son of God by birth, because God the Father was his father, and Mary was his mother. Trinitarians do not accept the teaching that Jesus was begotten by the Father. All told, the very favourite verses for Trinitarians John 1:1,14 do not support their teaching.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

No point in denying something that I never even considered.

Start considering.

 

[Apple7]

Which terms?

Right hand.

 

[Apple7]

I find it very significant that you insert made up phrases to attempt to fabricate evidence for your theory.

Try providing actual verses that STATE your theory..... if you can.

Show us what is 'made-up', and why...

 

[Apple7]

Psalm 33:6–9 (KJV): 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7

Kind regards
Trevor

Psalm 33.6

Through the Word of Yahweh (Son) the heavens were made; and all their host by the breath (Holy Spirit) of His Mouth (Son).

 

[chair]

Right hand.

The word for "right" can sometimes refer to a right hand, but it in itself doesn't mean "hand". It depends on the context.
In Exodus 15:6 the reference is to God's "right", i.e. his right hand. Though the word for hand doesn't appear there.
In Genesis 29:4 to reference is to the direction right, as opposed to the direction left.

In Psalm 110:1 right is simply "to my right", and translators have used the idiomatic expression "on my right hand"- but there is no real reference to "hand" there, nor is it implied by the context.

In Psalm 110:5 teh situation is similar. God on your right will crush kings. "Hand" only comes into it as a result of the translation.

 

[Dartman]

Show us what is 'made-up', and why...

Sure! The " made up phrases" are;
First Person of The Trinity
The Second Person of The Trinity
The Third Person of The Trinity

The "why" is blatantly obvious ..... EVERY text you provided is discussing Jehovah/YHVH God, Christ's God. You, in terrifying arrogance, took it upon yourself to falsify the Scriptures, by REPLACING Jehovah/YHVH God, with your false Gods, as listed.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

This isn’t really difficult. The grammar and semantics in the first few verses of John 1 and Hebrews 1 unequivocally testify to the authentic Divinity of the Son. There is no valid argument.

 

[Apple7]

The word for "right" can sometimes refer to a right hand, but it in itself doesn't mean "hand". It depends on the context.
In Exodus 15:6 the reference is to God's "right", i.e. his right hand. Though the word for hand doesn't appear there.
In Genesis 29:4 to reference is to the direction right, as opposed to the direction left.

In Psalm 110:1 right is simply "to my right", and translators have used the idiomatic expression "on my right hand"- but there is no real reference to "hand" there, nor is it implied by the context.

In Psalm 110:5 teh situation is similar. God on your right will crush kings. "Hand" only comes into it as a result of the translation.

The NT quotes Psalm 110 in numerous locations, and had dedicated Greek terms for 'Right Hand', clearly refuting your assertions to the contrary.

 

[Apple7]

Sure! The " made up phrases" are;
First Person of The Trinity
The Second Person of The Trinity
The Third Person of The Trinity

The "why" is blatantly obvious ..... EVERY text you provided is discussing Jehovah/YHVH God, Christ's God. You, in terrifying arrogance, took it upon yourself to falsify the Scriptures, by REPLACING Jehovah/YHVH God, with your false Gods, as listed.

God has always had God.

This is true in both the OT and NT.

Study up...

 

[Dartman]

God has always had God.

Nope, exactly the opposite.

This is true in both the OT and NT.

Study up...

And, put up your Scriptural "proof".

Your attempt to persuade by bluster alone isn't working.... and demonstrates the utter vacuum of verses that state your theories.

 

[Dartman]

This isn’t really difficult. The grammar and semantics in the first few verses of John 1 and Hebrews 1 unequivocally testify to the authentic Divinity of the Son. There is no valid argument.

Your attempt to persuade by bluster alone isn't working.... and demonstrates the utter vacuum of verses that state your theories.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Your attempt to persuade by bluster alone isn't working.... and demonstrates the utter vacuum of verses that state your theories.

There is no bluster, and it’s the Greek grammar and lexicography that designate the Divinity of Christ.

This has been established for nearly 2 millennia based upon these clear criteria relative to Greek anarthrous nouns and the lexical meaning of several words used in the divinely inspired text.

I don’t really care what modern heretics say or think. The express image (charakter) of a hypostasis is the same ousia as that hypostasis. This is linguist fact, not “theory”. And “the Word was God (anarthrous)” means the same quality character and functional activity, so it’s explicitly Divinity.

There is no argument. You are a heretic. This is not a new subject, no matter what you try to make of it. I make no attempt to persuade. You either hear this and are saved, or you will not and are not.

 

[Apple7]

You suffer from 2 Cor 4...

You suffer from 2 Cor 4...

Nope, exactly the opposite.

This is true in both the OT and NT.

Study up...

And, put up your Scriptural "proof".

Your attempt to persuade by bluster alone isn't working.... and demonstrates the utter vacuum of verses that state your theories.

Isaiah 51.15 - 16

But I am Yahweh your God (First-Person), stirring up the sea and making its waves roar; Yahweh of Hosts is His name (Third-Person). And I have put My Words (First-Person) in your mouth, and covered you in the shade of My hand, to plant the heavens and found the earth, and to say to Zion, You are My people.


Conclusion:

Yahweh is more than one Person.

:cigar: