Jesus and Judas

[Clete]

This is the last time I will reply to you on this subject because our views on scripture and God are so foreign we have no common ground from which to work out an understanding. In my view you make God out to be as evil as the Reformed people do.

How is that even possible?

Seriously!

How is it even possible for such a thought to cross your mind?


Do us all a favor and just do one simple thing. Do your best to put JR's position, and by extension my own position, into your own words. Just repeat back to us whatever it is you think we're saying on this issue about Judas.

Based on the simply crazy response quoted above, it's 100% guaranteed that you won't have it right.

 

[Clete]

So. if you take your neighbor to court and sue him then if you bear false witness against him, you aren't lying about him?

When you say things that you know are false, it is a lie, Gary. When you try to put words into other people mouths that you know don't fit, that too is a lie, Gary.

Perjury is a form of lying. Perjury, however, is not merely lying, it is a crime. It also is the form of lying that is specifically prohibited by God in the Ten Commandments. For these reasons, perjury is always a sin - always. Lying, on the other hand, is not always a sin. The sort of lie you told in the above post is a sin and you ought to repent of it but lying to an evil enemy is often (i.e. not always) a godly thing to do, as JR and I have both established biblically and logically, several times, with no substantive response from either you or SKC. Instead, you somehow think that we're accusing God of tempting people to sin, which is just complete nonsense, but it seems you have nowhere else to go with the argument.

 

[Gary K]

How is that even possible?

Seriously!

How is it even possible for such a thought to cross your mind?


Do us all a favor and just do one simple thing. Do your best to put JR's position, and by extension my own position, into your own words. Just repeat back to us whatever it is you think we're saying on this issue about Judas.

Based on the simply crazy response quoted above, it's 100% guaranteed that you won't have it right.

Yup. That is exactly what both of you will say. Why? Because our points of view are as radically different as those of an athiest and a Christian. I'm not calling you guys athiests, just making an analogy.

 

[Gary K]

When you say things that you know are false, it is a lie, Gary. When you try to put words into other people mouths that you know don't fit, that too is a lie, Gary.

Perjury is a form of lying. Perjury, however, is not merely lying, it is a crime. It also is the form of lying that is specifically prohibited by God in the Ten Commandments. For these reasons, perjury is always a sin - always. Lying, on the other hand, is not always a sin. The sort of lie you told in the above post is a sin and you ought to repent of it but lying to an evil enemy is often (i.e. not always) a godly thing to do, as JR and I have both established biblically and logically, several times, with no substantive response from either you or SKC. Instead, you somehow think that we're accusing God of tempting people to sin, which is just complete nonsense, but it seems you have nowhere else to go with the argument.

On this we agree. I was replying to JudgeRightly when he said in a couple of posts that deception and lying are not the same thing and implied the behavior of God and the US Army were moral equivalents.

I'm fast reaching the same point with you as I have reached with JudgeRightly as we have points of view that are radically different.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What is the question?

Someone doesn't know what "begging the question" means.

The assertion was that Jesus manipulated Judas,

Scripture shows this to be true.

and in my mind, that is tempting Judas to sin by betraying Jesus for money.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

As Judas was a thief his betrayal was motivated, at least in part, by his greed.

And so God can't use that to accomplish His purposes?

Or do you reject the idea that God can use the actions of wicked men for good, as He did with Joseph and his brothers.

Because THAT is what we're talking about.

God manipulates His enemies into accomplishing His purposes, be that bringing people together as a result of siblings selling off their brother, or by tricking the enemy into an ambush, or by using a greedy man in His plan to literally save the world!

Yes, Manipulative behavior is always wrong for several reasons.

Saying it doesn't make it so, and I asked you to show that either A) manipulating ones enemies is evil, OR B) that manipulation is always evil. Not just restate your position, but to demonstrate it.

First and foremost because it is one of the devil's attributes. The devil is so manipulative he deceived 1/3 of the angels in heaven who had lived in the presence of God

So you give one example of an evil being doing evil things, and that's supposed to convince us that manipulation is always evil?

I gave you two or three examples, which you ignored, by the way, to show you that manipulation is not always wrong, particularly when you are manipulating your enemy, assuming that you are on the righteous side of things.

By the way, I say "two or three" intentionally, because that is the standard that God says is needed to establish a matter.

So, at least with this post alone, your one "witness" is not enough to establish your position, whereas my "two or three witnesses" satisfy that demand.

for who knows how many billions of years.

Angels were likely created on the first day of the creation week, about 7500 years ago.

Billions of years ago, the only entity that existed was God.

Manipulation always uses deception to manipulate the target/s.

No, not always. Sometimes it's just a matter of letting evil people do what they most desire.

My older brother is very manipulative and has been since he was a kid. His behavior destroyed all trust between us and created hatred in me. One of the miracles God has worked in me is that I have now put him on my prayer list. I went from hating him to loving him and desiring to see him in heaven in a period of a couple of months.

No, it wasn't a miracle, and no, anecdotal evidence is not sufficient to establish that manipulation is always wrong.

Sorry, but this does not fit with who Jesus is.

Because you say so?

While on the cross Jesus asked His Father to forgive all those who were crucifying Him. He also knew the Jewish leaders would reject him for this was also predicted in Biblical prophecies.

My answer is the same as Clete's on this one.

Jesus forgave them because they were doing exactly what God wanted them to do.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Jesus was fully aware of who Judas was,

True.

what he would do,

Could Judas have repented, and not done what he did?

and why he would do it.

True, but only because Jesus knew Judas' heart.

 

[Clete]

Yup. That is exactly what both of you will say. Why? Because our points of view are as radically different as those of an athiest and a Christian. I'm not calling you guys athiests, just making an analogy.

Why won't you answer direct questions?

Your reaction makes no sense!

I wasn't being sarcastic or flippant when I asked you to tell us what it is you think we're saying. There is simply no chance that you've got it right. It's flat out isn't possible!

In your own words, just what exactly is it that you think we're trying to say?

 

[Clete]

On this we agree. I was replying to JudgeRightly when he said in a couple of posts that deception and lying are not the same thing and implied the behavior of God and the US Army were moral equivalents.

I'm fast reaching the same point with you as I have reached with JudgeRightly as we have points of view that are radically different.

I very much doubt that we do have radically different points of view. Your reactions are too disconnected from reason for that to be the case. I don't think you understand at all what we're saying. There is a disconnect somewhere. You have some sort of idea about what we're saying that is very far off base.

This is muddied by the fact that I don't recall seeing you give any direct answers to his questions concerning what you're now referring to as a moral equivalence (perhaps I've missed them) and I know for a fact that you've never addressed the scripture that I've presented multiple times that directly contradicts your position.

So maybe I'm trying too hard to give you the benefit of the doubt. My experience is that when people refuse to respond directly, start responding with single sentence quips instead of arguments and move toward trying to deflect or dismiss and away from substantive engagement and understanding, that they've simply run of out substantive things to say but can't bring themselves to modify their position.

What's really bad for you is that I've not exhausted half of the biblical material I could bring to bear on this issue. Just to give you the slightest taste of where this could go....

If God doesn't manipulate evil people and if doing so is somehow evil, just exactly what is going on in the following passage....

Exodus 10:1 Now the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,​

or in this passage...

Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23 So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” ’ ”​

​

24 And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the Lord met him and sought to kill him. 25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses’ feet, and said, “Surely you are a husband of blood to me!” 26 So He let him go. Then she said, “You are a husband of blood!”—because of the circumcision.​

​

Then there's the entire book of Jonah, not to mention the entire book of Job. Oh! And one of my favorite books of the entire bible is Ester! Now there's an example of a Godly woman who was an absolute master manipulator!

I'm not even close to exaggerating, Gary. I could go on and on and on seemingly forever. There are people in the book of Hebrews Faith "Hall of Faith" that got on that list explicitly because of the courageous lies they told! Every few seconds, as I write this, I think of additional places I could go to establish my position and I can't even get you to directly deal with the only one that I've actually used up to this point (1 Kings 22:22-23). I've literally got dozens, including multiple whole books of the bible!

Clete

 

[Gary K]

I very much doubt that we do have radically different points of view. Your reactions are too disconnected from reason for that to be the case. I don't think you understand at all what we're saying. There is a disconnect somewhere. You have some sort of idea about what we're saying that is very far off base.

This is muddied by the fact that I don't recall seeing you give any direct answers to his questions concerning what you're now referring to as a moral equivalence (perhaps I've missed them) and I know for a fact that you've never addressed the scripture that I've presented multiple times that directly contradicts your position.

So maybe I'm trying too hard to give you the benefit of the doubt. My experience is that when people refuse to respond directly, start responding with single sentence quips instead of arguments and move toward trying to deflect or dismiss and away from substantive engagement and understanding, that they've simply run of out substantive things to say but can't bring themselves to modify their position.

What's really bad for you is that I've not exhausted half of the biblical material I could bring to bear on this issue. Just to give you the slightest taste of where this could go....

If God doesn't manipulate evil people and if doing so is somehow evil, just exactly what is going on in the following passage....

Exodus 10:1 Now the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,​

or in this passage...

Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23 So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” ’ ”​

​

24 And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the Lord met him and sought to kill him. 25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses’ feet, and said, “Surely you are a husband of blood to me!” 26 So He let him go. Then she said, “You are a husband of blood!”—because of the circumcision.​

​

Then there's the entire book of Jonah, not to mention the entire book of Job. Oh! And one of my favorite books of the entire bible is Ester! Now there's an example of a Godly woman who was an absolute master manipulator!

I'm not even close to exaggerating, Gary. I could go on and on and on seemingly forever. There are people in the book of Hebrews Faith "Hall of Faith" that got on that list explicitly because of the courageous lies they told! Every few seconds, as I write this, I think of additional places I could go to establish my position and I can't even get you to directly deal with the only one that I've actually used up to this point (1 Kings 22:22-23). I've literally got dozens, including multiple whole books of the bible!

Clete

Yes, our points of view are so radically different that I'm accused of lying when I disagree with JudgeRightly. He does the same with others who disagree with his scriptural pov. That ought to be a clue to all of you MADists. Your theology isn't right.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, our points of view are so radically different

But you won't even discuss your point of view with us.

that I'm accused of lying when I disagree with JudgeRightly.

Where have I accused you of lying simply for disagreeing with me?

He does the same with others who disagree with his scriptural pov.

Now you're lying. Stop lying.

That ought to be a clue to all of you MADists. Your theology isn't right.

Saying it doesn't make it so, Gary.

 

[Gary K]

But you won't even discuss your point of view with us.



Where have I accused you of lying simply for disagreeing with me?



Now you're lying. Stop lying.



Saying it doesn't make it so, Gary.

So you deny you have called Hoping and I both liars multiple times for disagreeing with your theology and illustrating the differences?

 

[Right Divider]

So you deny you have called Hoping and I both liars multiple times for disagreeing with your theology and illustrating the differences?

We call you a liar when you lie.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So you deny you have called Hoping and I both liars multiple times for disagreeing with your theology

Yes, I deny that I have called you a liar for disagreeing with me.

I HAVE called you a liar, however, for lying about me or my position, such as right now.

and illustrating the differences?

Illustrating the differences does not make you a liar. I WISH you would illustrate the differences, but every attempt I've made so far to get you to do so has resulted in you shutting down and refusing to answer my questions.

 

[Gary K]

Yes, I deny that I have called you a liar for disagreeing with me.

I HAVE called you a liar, however, for lying about me or my position, such as right now.



Illustrating the differences does not make you a liar. I WISH you would illustrate the differences, but every attempt I've made so far to get you to do so has resulted in you shutting down and refusing to answer my questions.

Untrue. I started out explaining my pov to you but you refuse to actually discuss my pov. That is how radically different our beliefs are.

Remember me asking you if all you can do is insult people? That was because you considered Hoping to be lying to you because you are incapable of understanding his pov. I have found Hoping to be honest in his beliefs even though I disagree with him most of the time. He is also much kinder and forgiving than most MADists. Derf is a breath of fresh air with his open mind and consideration of others. I really like him.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Untrue.

Quote me doing it, in the thread I did it in.

I started out explaining my pov to you but you refuse to actually discuss my pov.

I refuse to discuss it?

Me?

Are you kidding me?

Multiple times now, in multiple threads, I have asked you questions regarding your beliefs, and YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER!

You claim:

That is how radically different our beliefs are.

Yet no other person I've debated who has a similar belief to you has ever said that their beliefs are too dissimilar to discuss. And yes, I have a pretty good idea of what your beliefs are, and what the errors are with your position that make you think that way.

I'd even go so far as to say I know your position better than you do!

But you refuse to engage with anyone who challenges your beliefs, claiming the above as if it excuses you for having erroneous beliefs!

Remember me asking you if all you can do is insult people? That was because you considered Hoping to be lying to you because you are incapable of understanding his pov.

What? No, I was checking to make sure that he was aware of what thread he was in, to clue him into the "prophecy" he was asking about!

It wasn't an insult at all, nor was it lying. In fact, I'm not even sure how you would even consider a question to be lying!

As far as his "pov" is concerned, I understand it fully. He interprets a few verses scattered throughout the Bible to mean that he is no longer able to sin, or that he is never put through any opportunity for him to sin.

I have found Hoping to be honest in his beliefs even though I disagree with him most of the time.

It doesn't matter if he's wrong. And I've shown him to be wrong multiple times.

He is also much kinder and forgiving than most MADists.

He's too nice. It makes me want to puke. Where's the people who have the attitude of Elijah? Or of Jesus? Or of Paul?

Derf is a breath of fresh air with his open mind and consideration of others. I really like him.

Good for you.

None of this has anything to do with you not wanting to discuss your beliefs.

 

[Gary K]

Quote me doing it, in the thread I did it in.



I refuse to discuss it?

Me?

Are you kidding me?

Multiple times now, in multiple threads, I have asked you questions regarding your beliefs, and YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER!

You claim:



Yet no other person I've debated who has a similar belief to you has ever said that their beliefs are too dissimilar to discuss. And yes, I have a pretty good idea of what your beliefs are, and what the errors are with your position that make you think that way.

I'd even go so far as to say I know your position better than you do!

But you refuse to engage with anyone who challenges your beliefs, claiming the above as if it excuses you for having erroneous beliefs!



What? No, I was checking to make sure that he was aware of what thread he was in, to clue him into the "prophecy" he was asking about!

It wasn't an insult at all, nor was it lying. In fact, I'm not even sure how you would even consider a question to be lying!

As far as his "pov" is concerned, I understand it fully. He interprets a few verses scattered throughout the Bible to mean that he is no longer able to sin, or that he is never put through any opportunity for him to sin.



It doesn't matter if he's wrong. And I've shown him to be wrong multiple times.



He's too nice. It makes me want to puke. Where's the people who have the attitude of Elijah? Or of Jesus? Or of Paul?



Good for you.

None of this has anything to do with you not wanting to discuss your beliefs.

I have freely discussed my beliefs with Derf for years. Does that give you a clue as to how incapable of understanding my pov you are? He and I have PMed back and forth a lot in our discussions.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I have freely discussed my beliefs with Derf for years. Does that give you a clue as to how incapable of understanding my pov you are? He and I have PMed back and forth a lot in our discussions.

Good for you.

So are you going to quote me calling you a liar for disagreeing with me? Or was that a false accusation that you can't support because I've never done so to begin with?

 

[Clete]

Yes, our points of view are so radically different that I'm accused of lying when I disagree with JudgeRightly. He does the same with others who disagree with his scriptural pov. That ought to be a clue to all of you MADists. Your theology isn't right.

No, we accuse people of lying when they say things that they have to have known were false when they said it.

What would be a clue that our doctrine was false is if anyone ever showed up with a valid argument that got within a mile of refuting it.

Instead, what we get, when those who disagree with us run out of substantive things to say is things that sound exactly like what you just posted here. Completely unresponsive nonsense that not only ignore the arguments that were supposedly being responded to but that wouldn't be rationally valid even it were based on accusations that were actually true!

 

[Hoping]

He's too nice. It makes me want to puke.

"Too nice"...thankyou, in the name of Jesus Christ...the Jew.
"In whom" were water baptized both Jewish and Gentile believes.

Where's the people who have the attitude of Elijah? Or of Jesus? Or of Paul?

Were they not "nice"?

 

[JudgeRightly]

"Too nice"...thankyou,

That wasn't a compliment.

in the name of Jesus Christ...

Quit taking the Lord's name in vain.

Were they not "nice"?

Have you never read their respective stories?

Elijah, just prior to executing the 450 prophets of Baal, "mocked them" as the Bible says, telling them to yell louder to their god so that Baal could hear their prayers since he was either on a trip, sleeping, or in the restroom.

Jesus called the Pharisees "whited sepulchres" and a "brood of vipers," He rebuked the multitudes for not responding in faith to John the Baptist's message while ridiculing them. He even called Peter -- yes, THAT Peter -- He called him SATAN!

Paul called the High Priest Ananias a "whitewashed wall," and uses dripping sarcasm to mock the Corinthians since they clearly don't need his counsel because they are full, rich, wise, strong and distinguished, and they are even like kings, and all that without Paul's help!

So no, according to your standard of nice, they were not.

You are literally "nicer than God."

 

[Hoping]

That wasn't a compliment.

Well, in the name of Jesus Christ, I appreciate it anyway.

Quit taking the Lord's name in vain.

Never have, and never will.
I guess you've called me a liar so many times that you are starting to believe it is true.
It isn't.

Have you never read their respective stories?

I am sure I have.

Elijah, just prior to executing the 450 prophets of Baal, "mocked them" as the Bible says, telling them to yell louder to their god so that Baal could hear their prayers since he was either on a trip, sleeping, or in the restroom.

Serving God rarely makes unbelievers think God or His prophets are nice.
I'ld call Elijah's actions "nice" on behalf of all those he protected from false prophets.

Jesus called the Pharisees "whited sepulchres" and a "brood of vipers," He rebuked the multitudes for not responding in faith to John the Baptist's message while ridiculing them. He even called Peter -- yes, THAT Peter -- He called him SATAN!

The recipients of the Lord's wrath will never call Him "nice".
But those enlightened by Jesus' words sure will.

Paul called the High Priest Ananias a "whitewashed wall," and uses dripping sarcasm to mock the Corinthians since they clearly don't need his counsel because they are full, rich, wise, strong and distinguished, and they are even like kings, and all that without Paul's help!

Yes, he did.
While Ananias, the representative of a bygone religion may not be enthused by Paul's reaction, those of us who are strengthened by it thank Paul for the truth of the matter.
"Nice" is in the eye of the beholder.

So no, according to your standard of nice, they were not.

Supra.

You are literally "nicer than God."

"It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord." (Matt 10:25)