If that is true, kindly show us the Scriptures which actually prove what you just said. It was Satan who was manipulating Judas. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. (John 13:27)
Jesus and Judas
- Thread starter Gary K
- Start date
Look, I don't know who it is you're used to dealing with but I'm not stupid.
You've now modified your position from Judas doing what he did on his own to now it was Satan who made him do it. Not that I disagree with the idea that Satan was involved but merely that you've modified your position.
John 13:27 doesn't refute our position for a few reasons, chief among them being the fact that Jesus is the one who told Judas “What you do, do quickly.”
Also, Satan was being manipulated by God as well...
I Corinthians 2:8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Satan, obviously, isn't interested in having God's prophecies fulfilled or helping God accomplish His plan of saving the world from the evil that he started.
In other words, I've already proved what I said by citing biblical prophecy that Judas was fulfilling and by quoting passages of scripture which you not only didn't know existed but which show God specifically doing what you claim he cannot do (manipulating evil people for His purpose) and which you promptly ignored. An now you try to pretend that a burden of proof that I've already met is now mine to carry again.
Just because you have no response but remain unconvinced, doesn't mean that I haven't made my case. I have made my case and I've refuted your attempted side shot here and now it is YOUR burden to refute my case, not mine to prove it again.
Clete
You have no case in the light of this passage: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:13-15)
This statement of yours indicates that God was tempting Judas: "This is my line. You are the one who is saying that Judas wasn't being manipulated by God. He very clearly was, albeit willingly so". Whether you call it manipulation or tempting, it comes to the same thing. But God neither manipulated nor tempted Judas. So you are clearly mistaken. And God was not "orchestrating" events at that time either. Every evildoer was making his own choices and his own decisions.
Your assertion has scripture arguing with scripture.
That is not my opinion. It's scripture.
Or your understanding of what scripture says is in error...
Explain how as I quoted enough to give context to the verse in question.
Manipulation != temptation
I disagree. Here is why. The devil is the master manipulater in the universe and he does it through deception which is lying. He lied to Eve and he's never stopped lying to humans. It's who he is. Lying is breaking the commandments and the Bible tells us "sin is the transgression of the law".
Unless sin != evil to deceive is evil.
I would argue that God is better at manipulation than the devil is, because He will manipulate him into defeat.
God is definitely a better chess player than the devil.
Lying and deception are not quite the same thing. You're equivocating. On this and on manipulation.
You're talking about lying now. Stay on topic. We're talking about manipulation. There is no commandment against lying. There IS, however, a commandment on bearing false witness. But there's an entire thread on lying if you want to talk about that.
No contest.
Was it wrong for the US army in World War 2 to use inflatable tanks, sound effects, and radio trickery to fool the Nazis?
Was it evil?
Was it wrong for God to trick the enemy army at Ai into an ambush?
Was it evil?
Both of those examples are manipulation. They are not temptation.
So no, manipulation != temptation.
So. if you take your neighbor to court and sue him then if you bear false witness against him, you aren't lying about him?
So. you think God is no better morally than the devil?
I think we are to have to agree to disagree because I can never agree with you on this subject.
This is called begging the question. It's a logical fallacy for a reason.
It's also not what I said.
I said that God will manipulate Satan into defeat. He tells us as much in Revelation.
Do you deny that God will bring about His own victory in the end?
Again, there is an entire thread on the topic of lying.
Also, you didn't answer my questions. Please answer the questions I asked:
Was it wrong for the US army in World War 2 to use inflatable tanks, sound effects, and radio trickery to fool the Nazis?
Was it evil?
Was it wrong for God to trick the enemy army at Ai into an ambush?
Was it evil?
This is the last time I will reply to you on this subject because our views on scripture and God are so foreign we have no common ground from which to work out an understanding. In my view you make God out to be as evil as the Reformed people do.
Translation: I can't defend my beliefs and so I'm going to straw-man my opponent and not even try to defend my beliefs.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
What are you talking about, the book of James?
When did anyone suggest that the book of James is your opinion?
Why is it that when people are arguing a position that makes no sense, they always seem to devolve into single sentence responses to posts that took 45 minutes to an hour to write? The substance just seems to leak out of them until there's nothing left but mindless single sentences that don't seem to be connected to anything that any of their opponents actually believe or have said or have even implied?
Perhaps this will help. I mean, probably not, but maybe, just maybe this will help....
The words "manipulate" and "tempt" are not synonyms.
Clete