Jehovah alone is the creator of the Universe.

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JudgeRightly

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This is the "black knight" defense, from Monty Python, nothing but Bluster.

Do you know what "one" means?

Or, "only"?
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

As has been pointed out many times already, John 17:3 does not exclude either the Son or the Holy Spirit from also being "the ONLY true God," especially if God is triune.

If God is unitarian, then you need to provide evidence to such, because John 17:3 is circumstantial evidence at best, and trinitarian at worst (for your position).
 

Apple7

New member
HOWEVER, Jesus is NOT the Creator of the universe, that's his God;


Jesus creates Universe Col. 1.16


οτι εν αυτω εκτισθη τα παντα εν τοις ουρανοις και επι της γης τα ορατα και τα αορατα ειτε θρονοι ειτε κυριοτητες ειτε αρχαι ειτε εξουσιαι τα παντα δι αυτου και εις αυτον εκτισται

hoti en autō ektisthē ta panta en tois ouranois kai epi tēs gēs ta horata kai ta aorata eite thronoi eite kyriotētes eite archai eite exousiai ta panta di autou kai eis auton ektistai

For by Him all things were created; by that in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or rulers, or magistrates, or authorities; all things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1.16)


Three separate and distinct primary prepositions are used to describe Jesus’ creative power (i.e. ‘en’, ‘di’, & ‘eis’).

Three separate prepositions were used here to make it crystal clear that three separate modes of operation are in effect at the same time.

In each case, the preposition is flanked by the masculine singular, ‘auto’.

The first instance of ‘auto’ is in the dative singular masculine, indicating that Jesus is the object of the primary preposition, ‘en’, rendered as ‘by’.

The second instance of ‘auto’ is in the genitive singular masculine, indicating that Jesus is in direct possession of the creative act – i.e. He is in complete control of it – and is attached to the preposition ‘di’ rendered as, ‘through’.

The third instance of ‘auto’ is in the accusative singular masculine, again indicating that Jesus is the direct object of the preposition, ‘eis’, rendered as ‘for’.

Thus, from this Biblical verse alone, creation is By, Through, and For Jesus Christ all at the same time…indicating, yet, again, that He is the Triune creator God of the Universe.
 

7djengo7

New member
Jesus creates Universe Col. 1.16


οτι εν αυτω εκτισθη τα παντα εν τοις ουρανοις και επι της γης τα ορατα και τα αορατα ειτε θρονοι ειτε κυριοτητες ειτε αρχαι ειτε εξουσιαι τα παντα δι αυτου και εις αυτον εκτισται

hoti en autō ektisthē ta panta en tois ouranois kai epi tēs gēs ta horata kai ta aorata eite thronoi eite kyriotētes eite archai eite exousiai ta panta di autou kai eis auton ektistai

For by Him all things were created; by that in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or rulers, or magistrates, or authorities; all things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1.16)


Three separate and distinct primary prepositions are used to describe Jesus’ creative power (i.e. ‘en’, ‘di’, & ‘eis’).

Three separate prepositions were used here to make it crystal clear that three separate modes of operation are in effect at the same time.

In each case, the preposition is flanked by the masculine singular, ‘auto’.

The first instance of ‘auto’ is in the dative singular masculine, indicating that Jesus is the object of the primary preposition, ‘en’, rendered as ‘by’.

The second instance of ‘auto’ is in the genitive singular masculine, indicating that Jesus is in direct possession of the creative act – i.e. He is in complete control of it – and is attached to the preposition ‘di’ rendered as, ‘through’.

The third instance of ‘auto’ is in the accusative singular masculine, again indicating that Jesus is the direct object of the preposition, ‘eis’, rendered as ‘for’.

Thus, from this Biblical verse alone, creation is By, Through, and For Jesus Christ all at the same time…indicating, yet, again, that He is the Triune creator God of the Universe.

But for the effect of "the god of this world", belief that Jesus is YHWH would be αὐτό-matic, from just reading Colossians 1:16!
 

JudgeRightly

Administrator
Staff member
But for the effect of "the god of this world", belief that Jesus is YHWH would be αὐτό-matic, from just reading Colossians 1:16!
I heard Pastor Enyart say something that caught my attention while listening to one of his Bible Studies.

He said that the god of this world is whatever rules over man.

For example, liberalism is one "god" of this world. Abortion could be another.

I don't believe that Satan is locked away yet (that comes later, after the Great Tribulation), but I do understand some of the reasoning behind why Satan is not "the god (little 'g') of this world."

Guess I'll have to study up some more on this, maybe re-listen to make sure I heard Bob right...
 

7djengo7

New member
This is the "black knight" defense, from Monty Python, nothing but Bluster.

Do you know what "one" means?

Or, "only"?
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


Obviously YOU do not know what "only" means, since you can't tell the difference between

  • God the Father is "the only true God" (which is Biblical), and
  • ONLY God the Father is "the only true God" (which is your anti-Biblical presupposition).

Too bad for your unitarian presupposition that neither John 17:3, nor any other Bible verse, says that ONLY God the Father is "the only true God".
 

7djengo7

New member
I heard Pastor Enyart say something that caught my attention while listening to one of his Bible Studies.

He said that the god of this world is whatever rules over man.

Wow! That is pretty much how I have come to see it, myself.

For example, liberalism is one "god" of this world. Abortion could be another.

Indeed!

I don't believe that Satan is locked away yet (that comes later, after the Great Tribulation),

Same here. (Can't come soon enough!)

but I do understand some of the reasoning behind why Satan is not "the god (little 'g') of this world."

For myself, I simply no longer think there is a need to make out Paul's phrase, "the god of this world", as necessarily having only one, single referent--let alone a referent who is a person.

Now, I don't think it's a perfectly analogous thing, but I've come to think there is really no more reason to ascribe Paul's phrase to some person than there is to ascribe Christ's phrase, "the God of the dead" (Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27, Luke 20:38), to some person. In other words, if someone were to ask me, "Who is the god of this world mentioned by Paul?", I might be tempted to respond: "Who is the God of the dead mentioned by Jesus?"

And, of course, I would never go so far as to deny that the scope of Paul's phrase, "the god of this world", is affiliated with Satan.

Guess I'll have to study up some more on this, maybe re-listen to make sure I heard Bob right...

I like Bob. I have listened to quite a lot of his creationism/anti-evolutionism mp3's over the last 5 years (since I first discovered him on the internet). Really smart guy, pleasant personality, always worth listening to (and re-listening to).
 

7djengo7

New member
There is only one salvation.

Since you claim that Jesus is not YHWH, then which would you say is the one Saviour, beside Whom is no saviour (Isaiah 43:3,11)? Jesus OR YHWH?

Obviously, you must needs embarrass yourself in claiming that, while there is only one salvation, yet somehow it is not of YHWH! And, again, you must needs embarrass yourself in claiming that, while there is only one salvation, yet somehow it is not of Jesus!

But, why am I replying to your post, anyway? After all, you've had me on "Ignore" for weeks, now. ;)
 

Dartman

New member
All five NT locations of αληθινον, existing outside of John 17.3, have The Son as the referent.
:deadhorse:


I've already corrected you on this.
Alethenos is used 28 times in the NT, and in NO WAY is limited to speaking of Jesus!
Your pretense that you've found some "loophole" is indicative of your desperation.

The grammar is undeniable that Jesus said eternal life = knowing that his Father is the ONLY true God.
 

Dartman

New member
As has been pointed out many times already, John 17:3 does not exclude either the Son or the Holy Spirit from also being "the ONLY true God," especially if God is triune.

If God is unitarian, then you need to provide evidence to such, because John 17:3 is circumstantial evidence at best, and trinitarian at worst (for your position).
More "Black Knight" bluster.
The grammar is clear, Christ's Father is "the ONLY true God."
 

Dartman

New member
Jesus creates Universe Col. 1.16
Your ignoring the context.
For by Him all things were created; by that in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or rulers, or magistrates, or authorities; all things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1.16)

The specific "Creation" attributed to Jesus throughout the NT is the creation of
thrones, or rulers, or magistrates, or authorities
...That were CURRENT to Paul's writing!

The REST of the Scriptures are ALSO quite clear; Christ's God created the universe;
Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.


Acts 17:24-31
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.
 

Bladerunner

New member
In Rev. 22:13 :"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

in Heb 1:10 we are told: "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

And of course..1 TIM 3:16.."And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

 

Apple7

New member
:deadhorse:


I've already corrected you on this.
Alethenos is used 28 times in the NT, and in NO WAY is limited to speaking of Jesus!
Your pretense that you've found some "loophole" is indicative of your desperation.

The grammar is undeniable that Jesus said eternal life = knowing that his Father is the ONLY true God.


No one is even discussing 'alethenos'.

We are discussing the term in YOUR John 17.3 example, αληθινον.


Go learn some Greek...


:rotfl:
 

Apple7

New member
Your ignoring the context.
For by Him all things were created; by that in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or rulers, or magistrates, or authorities; all things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1.16)

The specific "Creation" attributed to Jesus throughout the NT is the creation of
thrones, or rulers, or magistrates, or authorities
...That were CURRENT to Paul's writing!




You want context?

Ok...

ος εστιν εικων του θεου του αορατου πρωτοτοκος πασης κτισεως


Col 1.15 expresses subordination. The genitive substantive specifies that which is subordinated to, or under, the dominion of the head substantive. In this case, the creation is subordinate to Jesus.

Adding context, (Col 1.9 – 20), clearly and irrefutably demonstrates Jesus’ deity.

Further, Col 1.15 – 20 is a hymn…and, as we all know, hymns are sung to deity, not mortals.
 

JudgeRightly

Administrator
Staff member
More "Black Knight" bluster.
The grammar is clear, Christ's Father is "the ONLY true God."

And the Son and the Holy Spirit are also the only true God.

Because God is triune.

Since we're not getting anywhere with this, perhaps we could try a different angle... Let's examine the dillema proposed to Euthyphro by Socrates.

Dartman, Let's assume God is unitarian for a bit.

Assuming so:

1) Is something (such as humility) good because God recognizes it as good?
OR
2) Is something good because God commands that it is good (as Socrates put it, because God loves it)?
 

Apple7

New member
The REST of the Scriptures are ALSO quite clear; Christ's God created the universe;
[/COLOR][/SIZE]Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.
they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou
Acts 4:24-30 And didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.


Acts 17:24-31
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.


You mean like this?


Jeremiah 27.4 - 5

And command them to go to their masters, saying, So says Yahweh (Father) of Hosts, the God of Israel: So you shall say to your masters, I have made the earth, the man, and the animals on the face of the earth by My great Power (Holy Spirit) and by My outstretched Arm (Son); and I have given it to whom it seemed right in My eyes.
 
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