Theology Club: Is the Future Open?

[Jerry Shugart]

Calm down bro.

I am perfectly calm.

You said He chose you because you believed.

He chose me for salvation because I believed and I quoted Paul to prove it.

I say what you're saying can also be said that He chose you because you chose Him.

Believing the gospel is not the same thing as choosing God.

Don't you have something more important to do with your time than playing your silly games?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Did God learn that you chose at the moment you chose since "God does not know the future" and then declare that you are now chosen?

The Bible speaks of us "believing" the gospel. So why do you people pervert the Bible and say that we choose instead of saying that we are saved when we "believe"?

 

[intojoy]

Is the Future Open?

I am perfectly calm.







He chose me for salvation because I believed and I quoted Paul to prove it.







Believing the gospel is not the same thing as choosing God.



Don't you have something more important to do with your time than playing your silly games?

No I've got nothing better.

To me I think believing is choosing
You say its no the same thing, it is because we choose to believe. I choose not to believe that believing is not the same thing as choosing. You chose not to believe that. We both chose to believe in Yeshua. So you did not choose Him but rather He before the ages began chose you and your believing is the result of His divine sovereign will. You did believe on your own but it was because you were enabled to choose contrary to your fallen state of total depravity. By choosing you God provided divine power for your choice to be made. That is not Calvinism, that is the biblical balance of the antinomy between divine sovereignty and human responsibility. I choose to believe that and for me its not silly. I'm silly but my desire to understand the antinomy is more accurate than your position I think.

Sorry about the avatar, I couldn't resist.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

To me I think believing is choosing

You need to get yourself a dictionary.

You say its no the same thing, it is because we choose to believe.

No, we hear the gospel and either we believe it or we don't. There is no choosing involved.

You did believe on your own but it was because you were enabled to choose contrary to your fallen state of total depravity.

What verses from the Scriptures can you provide which says anyone is enabled, apart from the gospel, to believe?

 

[zippy2006]

You keep asserting without any hint of argument or rationale. You haven't even demonstrated that a knot exists, you've just repeated the old canards like Delmar's "Platonic inheritance" theory.

If the canard fits, wear it :idunno:

Delmar, have you ever read Plato? The Neo-Platonists? Augustine himself? You can only tell whether a shoe fits if you know what a shoe is and you know the size of the foot in question. Presumably, you know neither and are just repeating the mantra of some Protestant apologist you stumbled upon. This is not even to mention the post-Enlightenment thought systems you have been steeped in unawares. Unlike yourself, Augustine was actually aware of many of the philosophical systems that shaped his thought and was intentional about embracing some and rejecting others. So many Protestants like yourself are so hostile to "philosophy" and "metaphysics" that they are oblivious to the enormous influence philosophy and metaphysics has on their thought. In light of these facts the self-assuring parrot-theories such as the "Platonic inheritance" noted above come off as humorous, mind-boggling, and dismaying.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Did God look ahead in time and see that you would believe?

Did God just decree that anyone who believes He will then choose, not actually knowing who "anyone" would actually be?

Did God learn that you chose at the moment you chose since "God does not know the future" and then declare that you are now chosen?

Something else?

AMR

The Bible speaks of us "believing" the gospel. So why do you people pervert the Bible and say that we choose instead of saying that we are saved when we "believe"?

Unresponsive, Jerry.

Since you are saved "when you believe", what did God know about the fact of your believing...

1. Did God know with 100% certainty you would believe before you believed?

1a. If so, did God know by looking down the corridors of time to see your moment of belief?

-or-

1b. If so, did God choose you as one of His children, loving you before time itself, such that it was inescapable that you would one day believe?​

2. Did God not know you would believe until you believed?

All are simple questions. Your answer?

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Delmar, have you ever read Plato? The Neo-Platonists? Augustine himself?

Augustine gets a bad rap by the uninformed. The ECF did borrow words from the Greeks, but they carefully recast their original meanings within the proper context of Scripture. The openist's frequent "Greek philosophy!" canard does not hold up to careful scrutiny.

For example, see the "spoiler" in the post here:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3415136#post3415136

Anyone claiming we do not need to appreciate philosophical or metaphysical thought has made a self-refuting statement.

AMR

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Since you are saved "when you believe", what did God know about the fact of your believing...

1. Did God know with 100% certainty you would believe before you believed?

No, He knows when we believe. I will have to quote this again because for some reason you cannot grasp what is said. William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:

"Thereis properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).​

According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." That is the same thing which John Wesley says and he goes a step further:

"The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge. This would be ill consistent with the Apostle's words, 'With him is no variableness or shadow of turning;' and with the account he gives of himself by the Prophet, 'I the Lord change not'...Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally?" [emphasis mine] (John Wesley, Sermons on Several Occasions, 1771, Second Series, "On Predestination," Sermon #58; Christian Classics Ethereal Library).​

Since you are convinced that the future is not open then why do you not enlighten us to the truth at this thread which I started:

Matthew 4:17 Proves the Future is Open ​

 

[Lighthouse]

I think that you are so confused that you really do not know what you imply. Look at what you said:

That answers nothing about this verse:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

What does your idea that "it does not necessitate that those yet to enter in are already in" have to do with this verse?

You're an idiot, Jerry.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

No, He knows when we believe.

Then as others have noted, since God will now know at the moment you chose to believe, He chose you because you chose. Q.E.D.

AMR

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Then as others have noted, since God will now know at the moment you chose to believe, He chose you because you chose. Q.E.D.

Men either believe the gospel or they do not. It has nothing to do with choosing.

Since you are convinced that the future is not open then why do you not enlighten us to the truth at this thread which I started:

Matthew 4:17 Proves the Future is Open ​

 

[Delmar]

Augustine gets a bad rap by the uninformed. The ECF did borrow words from the Greeks, but they carefully recast their original meanings within the proper context of Scripture. The openist's frequent "Greek philosophy!" canard does not hold up to careful scrutiny.

For example, see the "spoiler" in the post here:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3415136#post3415136

Anyone claiming we do not need to appreciate philosophical or metaphysical thought has made a self-refuting statement.

AMR

So nobody knew how to think before the Greeks? :think:

 

[intojoy]

You're an idiot, Jerry.

Not a full time idiot. I'm probably the only guy taking that cake.

 

[intojoy]

Is the Future Open?

Men either believe the gospel or they do not. It has nothing to do with choosing.

Since you are convinced that the future is not open then why do you not enlighten us to the truth at this thread which I started:

Matthew 4:17 Proves the Future is Open ​

Hmmmm?

Shugart;

No, we hear the gospel and either we believe it or we don't. There is no choosing involved.

 

[intojoy]

Hmmmm?

Shugart;

No, we hear the gospel and either we believe it or we don't. There is no choosing involved.

So....like we don't have a choice to believe due to total depravity?

 

[Delmar]

intojoy
I could not find which post of Jerry's you were quoting in #274. If you let me know, I can fix the quote.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So....like we don't have a choice to believe due to total depravity?

I keep waiting for you to quote even one verse which you think demonstrates that a person emerges from the womb in a condition which can be described as totally depraved.

 

[intojoy]

I keep waiting for you to quote even one verse which you think demonstrates that a person emerges from the womb in a condition which can be described as totally depraved.

Ahhhmm, I am perceptive aren't i?

On another thread it was my conclusion that our conversation would ultimately lead to one thing: do all babies go to heaven.

In my observation the bible does not say anywhere that all babies go to heaven. I know what I would like to believe but I must follow what is written and not my desires. Also, I wouldn't attempt to push a brother who lost a child to try and debate me on this. What kind of cruel and stupid person would do that? But if you ask me I'm going to say what the bible says. All of your arguing jerry, comes right on back to home plate where we are again. I do believe in the end we will all say that The Lord did that which was right and good.

 

[intojoy]

intojoy
I could not find which post of Jerry's you were quoting in #274. If you let me know, I can fix the quote.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3840098

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ahhhmm, I am perceptive aren't i?

You are perceptive enough to play like you actually provided a passage from the Scriptures which you think demonstrates that a person emerges from the womb in a condition which can be described as totally depraved.

But you actually provided nothing!