Theology Club: Is the Future Open?

[Jerry Shugart]

You cut and paste my posts as you cut and paste the scriptures to make them say as you would like them to say deductively rather than inductively.

When we look at your entire sentence it remains nonsensical:

We were saved past tense even before we were saved when believing because God foreknew we would believe because He planned it to happen that way.

Even if He planned it that way no one is saved until they believe:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

 

[intojoy]

When we look at your entire sentence it remains nonsensical:







Even if He planned it that way no one is saved until they believe:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

The only way it can make sense is if the future is closed.

 

[Delmar]

[/INDENT] Jerry, it is perfectly comprehensible why you say what you say. You start from the presupposition that God does not experience time (a.k.a. a succession of events) and lo and behold you find all sorts of scriptures that appear to agree with you. That's all it is.

Your own view is self-defeating because if God is outside of time, then he didn't do anything before anything else. Even if there was a point when time began, God can't have done anything before that point. The very idea that time began is completely nonsensical.

Post of the day! :first:

 

[Delmar]

I can say the same about you.

It is hard to imagine you could say it with a straight face.

 

[Desert Reign]

Post of the day! :first:

Thanks for the thumbs up. My bank account details are...

 

[Delmar]

The future is not open, it's closed

No, That's not it.

 

[Lighthouse]

You can be the next to address the following verse since it has a huge bearing on whether or not God exists in a timeless state or not:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

If God exists in "time" then were we not saved and that salvation was given to us before the ages began?

His grace was given in Christ before the ages began. This verse does not state He saved us before the ages began. Learn to read.

Or were we saved in "time" when we actually believed?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).

Now it cannot be both. If we were saved before the ages began then it cannot be said that we were saved when we believed the gospel.

And likewise, if we are not saved until we believe the gospel then it cannot be said that we were saved before the ages began.

So which one is it? When are we saved?

We are saved when we believe. You really need to learn reading comprehension.

[/INDENT]Jerry, it is perfectly comprehensible why you say what you say. You start from the presupposition that God does not experience time (a.k.a. a succession of events) and lo and behold you find all sorts of scriptures that appear to agree with you. That's all it is.

Your own view is self-defeating because if God is outside of time, then he didn't do anything before anything else. Even if there was a point when time began, God can't have done anything before that point. The very idea that time began is completely nonsensical.

:thumb:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

His grace was given in Christ before the ages began. This verse does not state He saved us before the ages began. Learn to read.

You need to learn to "think."

"Grace" is the principle by which we are saved and therefore there must be an object in regard to grace and the only possible object mentioned is being saved.

Also, please explain how anyone can receive anything before they even exist since not one of us existed "before the ages began."

 

[Delmar]

You need to learn to "think."

"Grace" is the principle by which we are saved and therefore there must be an object in regard to grace and the only possible object mentioned is being saved.

Also, please explain how anyone can receive anything before they even exist since not one of us existed "before the ages began."

It sounds like you are in agreement with lighthouse on this point, is that correct?
...but if that is so, I am not sure what point you were making with this post...

But this verse speaks of us being given salvation before the ages began, and we did not believe before then:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It sounds like you are in agreement with lighthouse on this point, is that correct?
...but if that is so, I am not sure what point you were making with this post...

You need to go back and read the posts because it is obvious that you are missing something.

Now let us look at this verse:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Were we actually saved and that salvation was given to us before the ages began?

Or were we saved in "time" when we actually believed?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

 

[intojoy]

You need to go back and read the posts because it is obvious that you are missing something.



Now let us look at this verse:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Were we actually saved and that salvation was given to us before the ages began?



Or were we saved in "time" when we actually believed?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

Is there a difference between the Son's role and the Father's role in "time" jerry?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Is there a difference between the Son's role and the Father's role in "time" jerry?

Since the lord Jesus is now sitting at the right hand of the Father then they are both in the eternal state which is not bound by time.

 

[Lighthouse]

You need to learn to "think."

"Grace" is the principle by which we are saved and therefore there must be an object in regard to grace and the only possible object mentioned is being saved.

That's irrelevant, as God poured out His grace at that time, but we received it when we accepted it. Two separate events at separate times.

Also, please explain how anyone can receive anything before they even exist since not one of us existed "before the ages began."

I never said they could. I do not believe they can.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That's irrelevant, as God poured out His grace at that time, but we received it when we accepted it. Two separate events at separate times.

But it says that it was given to us. And please be specific about exactly what "grace" you are speaking about. In other ones, please define what that "grace" is which you think was given to us before the ages began.

I never said they could. I do not believe they can.

So are you now saying that nothing was given to us before the ages began since we did not even exist at that time?:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

 

[Lighthouse]

But it says that it was given to us. And please be specific about exactly what "grace" you are speaking about. In other ones, please define what that "grace" is which you think was given to us before the ages began.

:doh:

Paul was speaking corporately, not individually. "Us" is in reference to the human race as a whole, not us as individuals.:dunce::duh:

So are you now saying that nothing was given to us before the ages began since we did not even exist at that time?:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

I am saying nothing was given to us as individuals directly. You are quite terrible at reading comprehension, Jerry.

I'm thinking of putting you on ignore, because you are simply too ignorant to be reasoned with.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul was speaking corporately, not individually. "Us" is in reference to the human race as a whole, not us as individuals.

So the human race is saved:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Do you really think that at the time when Paul wrote those words the human race was saved?

I'm thinking of putting you on ignore, because you are simply too ignorant to be reasoned with.

Please do, because I tire of trying to reason with someone who refuses to use his brain.

Imagine that! The human race is saved!

DUH!

 

[zippy2006]

Your own view is self-defeating because if God is outside of time, then he didn't do anything before anything else.

To the contrary, such has been the orthodox view of Christianity for thousands of years. Eleonore Stump has written on this topic in the 4th chapter of her book, "Aquinas," Brian Davies has written on the topic in his book, "The Thought of Thomas Aquinas," and there is an IEP article that responds to just such objections in the section "Strong Objections to Immutability."

 

[Delmar]

To the contrary, such has been the orthodox view of Christianity for thousands of years.

Nobody is denying that this has been the prevailing Christian view for a very long time. Augustine was very influential in spreading his view of God, as interpreted through the lens of platonic philosophy.

 

[Desert Reign]

To the contrary, such has been the orthodox view of Christianity for thousands of years. Eleonore Stump has written on this topic in the 4th chapter of her book, "Aquinas," Brian Davies has written on the topic in his book, "The Thought of Thomas Aquinas," and there is an IEP article that responds to just such objections in the section "Strong Objections to Immutability."

But this argument suffers from the same problem that all strongly dualistic theologies suffer from. It is all surmise and no proof. It only defers confronting the inevitable paradoxes to a subsequent level of logic. It's like trying to untangle a ball of string, the more you straighten out the cord at one end, the more knotty it gets further down.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your own view is self-defeating because if God is outside of time, then he didn't do anything before anything else. Even if there was a point when time began, God can't have done anything before that point. The very idea that time began is completely nonsensical.

My view is supported by the Scriptures.

And you conveniently failed to address this verse:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Were we actually saved and that salvation was given to us before the ages began?

Or were we saved in "time" when we actually believed?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

Why did you not answer, especially since you think that you know everything about this subject?