Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Timotheos

New member
Here's how Jesus thinks of death:

John 11:11
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

We think of it as we see it... they are no longer in our realm, so it looks to us as if they are not alive, but gone. Jesus, having come from the spirit realm sees it as it is: sleep.

So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead..." John 11:14
We think of the dead as dead, because they are no longer alive. Jesus said he was asleep because He knew that He would "wake him up", in other words, cause him to become alive again.
 

Timotheos

New member
But still conscious.

Are they now? My father has been dead for a year, and my mother for 33 years. If what you are saying is true, I better go dig them up. If they are are truly conscious. But I have news for you. They are not conscious. If they were, they would have objected when we buried them. Your theology has no basis in reality, and does not reflect what the Bible says.
 

Timotheos

New member
absent from the body present with the Lord. I see you are not a theologian.
Nope, I'm a "bible reader". Are you a theologian? I can't tell.
The Bible says that all who are in the grave will hear his voice and come out to live. Those who are in the grave are dead, they are not alive and conscious and will not be until Jesus returns to raise them to life again.
Your post was a bit insulting. Is this what your theology does to you? I'm not really interested, then. I don't want to become an insulting person.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
if there is one word in the bible we can take literally

it should be death
and
we need not define it

Biblical death means separation, not cessation. It distinguishes physical, spiritual, eternal death.

It is an exegetical mistake to assume a wrong understanding of soul, death leading to a wrong doctrine of the final state of the wicked (begging the question).
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Here's how Jesus thinks of death:

John 11:11
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

We think of it as we see it... they are no longer in our realm, so it looks to us as if they are not alive, but gone. Jesus, having come from the spirit realm sees it as it is: sleep.

Sleep is a metaphor for physical death. The body appears to be lifeless (it is) like deep sleep. This does not mean the spirit-soul is not very much alive. The body without spirit is dead, but the spirit without body is alive (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord immediately...He is alive).
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Eternal punishment is in scope rather than time, although there is a time component. In other words the punishment is eternal in degree - nashing of teeth and all that.

Rationalization. Eternal life is forever, but eternal punishment (same adjective/grammar) is finite?
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
The Bible says that all who are in the grave will hear his voice and come out to live. Those who are in the grave are dead, they are not alive and conscious and will not be until Jesus returns to raise them to life again.
Apparently, your definition of, "dead," and The Lord's differ, at least a little bit. You would say that dead people cannot hear.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Are they now? My father has been dead for a year, and my mother for 33 years. If what you are saying is true, I better go dig them up. If they are are truly conscious. But I have news for you. They are not conscious. If they were, they would have objected when we buried them. Your theology has no basis in reality, and does not reflect what the Bible says.

You still blur the distinctions between physical, spiritual, eternal death.

There will be a future resurrection (bodily to reunite spirit-soul with glorified body), but this does not mean the false teaching of soul-sleep is true (God and angels/demons exist without physical bodies...the real person is immaterial and the body is a temporary tent on earth, not needed in the intermediate state in heaven).
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Sleep is a metaphor for physical death. The body appears to be lifeless (it is) like deep sleep. This does not mean the spirit-soul is not very much alive. The body without spirit is dead, but the spirit without body is alive (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord immediately...He is alive).
Bzactly.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
No, dead people are not conscious. I hope that you are not a doctor, or a mortician.

The real person, the spirit, lives on without the body. The person is not aware of physical life on earth (Eccl. under the sun), but is fully alive in the presence of God or hell.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Nope, I'm a "bible reader". Are you a theologian? I can't tell.
The Bible says that all who are in the grave will hear his voice and come out to live. Those who are in the grave are dead, they are not alive and conscious and will not be until Jesus returns to raise them to life again.
Your post was a bit insulting. Is this what your theology does to you? I'm not really interested, then. I don't want to become an insulting person.

Future physical resurrection/glorification, we agree on, but we disagree as to whether we are alive in the intermediate state. Context determines the issue and you are proof texting a context about future resurrection, not one about our state after death before then.
 

Timotheos

New member
Biblical death means separation, not cessation. It distinguishes physical, spiritual, eternal death.
Please, Please, tell me the scripture passage, chapter and verse, that says "Biblical death means separation". Death does NOT means separation. Death means "no longer alive". If you want to change the definition of death, you need to provide the biblical proof that "death means separation". You haven't done this.

It is an exegetical mistake to assume a wrong understanding of soul, death leading to a wrong doctrine of the final state of the wicked (begging the question).
That is why I do not change the definition of death, unless the bible tells me otherwise. If dead doesn't mean dead, then "raising the dead to life" doesn't have any meaning either. Your mistake about the meaning of "death" leads you to a wrong doctrine of the final state of the wicked. According to the Bible, the wicked perish and are no more.

This is physical death with the body not breathing. It does not prove there is no life after death (there is).
"There is"? Where is YOUR proof? Why would Jesus raise the dead to life when He returns if the dead are already alive? Your opinion doesn't make any sense.

I Tim. 5:6 It is possible to be dead and alive.
You are taking that verse out of context. Paul is not talking about whether dead people are actually alive, he is talking about about the certainty of death for a person who refuses to repent of her sins.

Sleep is a metaphor for physical death. The body appears to be lifeless (it is) like deep sleep. This does not mean the spirit-soul is not very much alive. The body without spirit is dead, but the spirit without body is alive (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord immediately...He is alive).
2 Corinthians 5:8 does not say "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord immediately". You changed that verse and you also added to it. You are correct that sleep is a metaphor for death. This doesn't mean that the person is not dead and is alive. You need to provide better biblical evidence for your view that the spirit lives on while the person is dead.

Rationalization. Eternal life is forever, but eternal punishment (same adjective/grammar) is finite?
I believe that the wages of sin is death. The eternal punishment is death and it is eternal.

You still blur the distinctions between physical, spiritual, eternal death.
You still haven't given any evidence that there are different kinds of death.

There will be a future resurrection (bodily to reunite spirit-soul with glorified body), but this does not mean the false teaching of soul-sleep is true (God and angels/demons exist without physical bodies...the real person is immaterial and the body is a temporary tent on earth, not needed in the intermediate state in heaven).
I don't believe in "soul-sleep". I believe that death is really death and life is really life. You have not proven otherwise. You have not proven that death is really life.

The real person, the spirit, lives on without the body. The person is not aware of physical life on earth (Eccl. under the sun), but is fully alive in the presence of God or hell.
Please give me the scripture evidence for this. I'm not kidding. If you have the chapter and verse for "the dead person is fully alive and in the presence of God (or in hell), I really want to see it.

Future physical resurrection/glorification, we agree on, but we disagree as to whether we are alive in the intermediate state. Context determines the issue and you are proof texting a context about future resurrection, not one about our state after death before then.
I am not "prooftexting". I am insisting that you provide biblical reasons for your your beliefs, just as I have done.
 

Timotheos

New member
I used this tool to try to find out if the Bible ever says "death means separation" or "death is separation".
http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=death+means+separation&c=&t=niv&ps=10&s=Bibles
No results were found for 'death means separation' or 'death is separation' under the Bibles category. I can't find any biblical evidence for "biblical death means separation". The truth is that Biblical death means "not alive" just as death has always meant. Jesus is able to take people who are not alive and make them alive again. I'm speaking literally, not metaphorically.

The cliche' "Biblical death is not really death, but rather a separation" is ALWAYS asserted, but NEVER proven. I've seen this claim many times, and I have never once seen any proof given for it.
 

Timotheos

New member
It appears that the thread has strayed from the topic "Is the doctrine of ECT biblical or not."

Whatever a person's view of the the dead are, if ECT is biblical there should be support for that view in the Bible. There is no verse in the entire Bible that says "The wicked will live forever in hell being tormented forever". Shouldn't that fact cause us to slow down and ask, "Is the doctrine of ECT biblical or not?" Just because the doctrine if ECT is the most beloved doctrine in all of Christianity, we should not accept it unless the Bible supports it. Popularity doesn't determine truth, I believe that the Bible determines truth. And the Bible specifically tells us what the penalty for sin is. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". Romans 6:23. What would be wrong with accepting what the Bible says instead of just believing an unbiblical doctrine because it is what we have always believed and because we like it?
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
No. It is different when the Lord calls them. He can bring the dead back to life.
We have that same power and authority.

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
 
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