Aimiel
Well-known member
No, it isn't. I believe that The Bible shows us what the second death is: torment in the Lake of Fire.
I have, you simply deny Truth.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
No, you haven't. You have never been able to show me where it is that you think Jesus and the angels mention ECT. I do not deny the truth. You are denying the truth. The truth is that Jesus never once mentioned Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell. If you think he did, SHOW ME where. Don't just repeat that you have already shown me, because you haven't.
You said it was in Matthew 25, I see "eternal fire", I see "eternal punishment", I do not see Eternal Conscious Torment written anywhere.
You said it was in Luke 16, I see "I am in agony in this fire", I do not see Eternal Conscious Torment written anywhere.
You said it was in Revelation 20. I see "tormented day and night for ever and ever" for the devil, the beast and the false prophet, no one else. The verse before that says that fore devoured Satan's army, not eternal conscious torment.
You never once showed me where Jesus mentioned Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell. Yet you claim that Jesus often mentioned ECT. I think this is a false claim, and you should back it up.
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freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Love's pro-vision...sees all,...includes all.......
Love's pro-vision...sees all,...includes all.......
As we've shared, its ridiculous to assume the primitive concept of ECT as traditionally assumed from a few passages in the NT, since it violates the very principles of justice, logic and sanity....while disguising itself as God's justice. In the light of Gods eternal will and love-nature, it presents further problems. Once again as we've shared, the only way a soul might be able to suffer a state of 'ECT' is if he were to maintain a psychic-spiritual condition of insanity, being stuck in a 'continuous loop-cycle', of self-inflicted pain, dejection or misery. - here the universal law of karma would apply, as a soul would continue to reap what it sows, in equal proportion according to the law, ....no more....no less.
ECT as a 'doctrine' is just that, one's assumption and interpretation. It could be no more proved to be true than a soul here on earth could be making its own 'heaven' or 'hell' by following or breaking the natural and spiritual laws that sustain our own existence here, as far as 'psychic' or 'spiritual' conditions are concerned. Wherever a soul exists and has 'free will' and 'consciousness'....it has in its 'ability' the 'response-ability' to include terms and choices that make for its happiness or suffering. Hence my supposition that as long as a soul is able and capable of re-turning to 'God', the pathway to salvation, happiness, healing, ascension...is always OPEN to that soul. - the only way this may NOT be available would be if a soul could reach a point of no return in its corruption or embrace of sin, and make a final and eternal choice of self-destruction. Otherwise,...the way is OPEN....since Love affords the soul access to itself, which is its true home.
Universalism also presents a favorable case if we consider the principles of Love's supremacy and ultimate triumph of divine will in the soul, as all living beings and creation ultimately give in to the gravitation of God's Love, as the one and only true reality, to which they discover as irresistable, as there is no other greater Power or Presence Existing, but 'God' ALONE.
In the light of these other great provsional measures and possibilities, it would appear Love and Wisdom has much more to offer souls than what the traditional view of ECT has to give, which isnt much at all...but a senseless continual state of agony and suffering, which has no curative or reformative effect whatsoever. Such 'torture' gives no glory to God, even if one entertains that as some divine justice, because MERCY always tempers and mediates that justice towards the expression and fulfillment of eternal life wherein God's goodness can be realized. - it is in this way that true 'worship' can have free reign, where all sentient beings can appreciate the value and potential of their own 'being', giving glory to God, its very source.
pj
Love's pro-vision...sees all,...includes all.......
As we've shared, its ridiculous to assume the primitive concept of ECT as traditionally assumed from a few passages in the NT, since it violates the very principles of justice, logic and sanity....while disguising itself as God's justice. In the light of Gods eternal will and love-nature, it presents further problems. Once again as we've shared, the only way a soul might be able to suffer a state of 'ECT' is if he were to maintain a psychic-spiritual condition of insanity, being stuck in a 'continuous loop-cycle', of self-inflicted pain, dejection or misery. - here the universal law of karma would apply, as a soul would continue to reap what it sows, in equal proportion according to the law, ....no more....no less.
ECT as a 'doctrine' is just that, one's assumption and interpretation. It could be no more proved to be true than a soul here on earth could be making its own 'heaven' or 'hell' by following or breaking the natural and spiritual laws that sustain our own existence here, as far as 'psychic' or 'spiritual' conditions are concerned. Wherever a soul exists and has 'free will' and 'consciousness'....it has in its 'ability' the 'response-ability' to include terms and choices that make for its happiness or suffering. Hence my supposition that as long as a soul is able and capable of re-turning to 'God', the pathway to salvation, happiness, healing, ascension...is always OPEN to that soul. - the only way this may NOT be available would be if a soul could reach a point of no return in its corruption or embrace of sin, and make a final and eternal choice of self-destruction. Otherwise,...the way is OPEN....since Love affords the soul access to itself, which is its true home.
Universalism also presents a favorable case if we consider the principles of Love's supremacy and ultimate triumph of divine will in the soul, as all living beings and creation ultimately give in to the gravitation of God's Love, as the one and only true reality, to which they discover as irresistable, as there is no other greater Power or Presence Existing, but 'God' ALONE.
In the light of these other great provsional measures and possibilities, it would appear Love and Wisdom has much more to offer souls than what the traditional view of ECT has to give, which isnt much at all...but a senseless continual state of agony and suffering, which has no curative or reformative effect whatsoever. Such 'torture' gives no glory to God, even if one entertains that as some divine justice, because MERCY always tempers and mediates that justice towards the expression and fulfillment of eternal life wherein God's goodness can be realized. - it is in this way that true 'worship' can have free reign, where all sentient beings can appreciate the value and potential of their own 'being', giving glory to God, its very source.
pj
Thanks Paul. I'm no universalist and I believe that the majority of souls (I mean human beings) will eventually be destroyed. It seems, as I said earlier that there is some evidence for ECT of angels and of those who deliberately and openly serve the beast. The majority are judged 'according to their works' and if you want to compare that with karma, I would have no objection. I believe that God is the judge of judges and I have complete faith in his judgements.
What we need is to make sense of the life we are living now in the flesh. That is why I believe in Jesus, who is the logos, the reason for all things, the origin and the destination of all. The thread is about judgement but in order for there to be judgement, there needs to be wisdom and foolishness, righteousness and wickedness. We need his wisdom now and for this life, not a gnosis for an afterlife that is neither wise nor foolish. That, I believe is maturity.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Whatever. Have it your way.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
far and wide His love shines.......
far and wide His love shines.......
Mutual respects
I too believe 'God' and the cosmic laws that govern souls and their destinies are wholly just, fair and merciful, to their fullest extent, notwithstanding the possible conditioning-factors granted by freedom of choice ('free will').
Truly, wisdom, love, justice, mercy and 'knowledge' is essential for the soul its upward journey towards eternal peace and progress. However, the 'gnosis' that is genuine will always tend towards and be resonant with the divine nature,...its principle qualities and attributes. Such real 'gnosis' is therefore inherently within the soul and spirit of Life itself, from the highest celestial courts to the lowest matterial shores
pj
far and wide His love shines.......
Mutual respects
I too believe 'God' and the cosmic laws that govern souls and their destinies are wholly just, fair and merciful, to their fullest extent, notwithstanding the possible conditioning-factors granted by freedom of choice ('free will').
Truly, wisdom, love, justice, mercy and 'knowledge' is essential for the soul its upward journey towards eternal peace and progress. However, the 'gnosis' that is genuine will always tend towards and be resonant with the divine nature,...its principle qualities and attributes. Such real 'gnosis' is therefore inherently within the soul and spirit of Life itself, from the highest celestial courts to the lowest matterial shores
pj
Zeke
Well-known member
This is a hidden type of self righteousness when we can claim others will be damned but we are safe, its just not the more excellent way 1Cor 12:31, 13:2. Romans 11:31-33, 12:21.
No verse? You couldn't find even one verse supporting your statement?
Whatever. You don't have to retract your false statement. Now it is obvious that Jesus never once spoke of eternal conscious torment.
It is hardly being "self-righteous" to be aware of the fact that the bible says that the wicked will perish and will be no more. Psalm 37:10 and 20. We are not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
Aimiel
Well-known member
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, "God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."
Tim said:
Tim said:
I agree with God and I am not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Did you happen to read the scripture I included with my post, or is that not something you do?
I understand that you are upset that I proved you were wrong, but can't we just get along anyway?
Zeke
Well-known member
I go back to Romans 7:18, the things that overcame Pauls will, will be destroyed or brought into a proper balance, like eletricity we have a negative and positive charge when either is out of balance the body and mind doesn't work properly.
When you extrovert the scripture your missing Christs point of where the kingdom of God is located, and what the temple made without hands is 1Cor 3:16, Christ teaching is all about the human body and mind within! Luke 17:20-21, not literal people used in the parrables and proverbs etc....He is not coming in the clouds he is here now in people Acts 9:4, John 14:2-3 14:20.
Paul is speaking of the two jerusalems in Galatians the left and right side of the human brain, that percentage we never use is only activated by God through meditation and taking no thought which Jesus said to do five times Matt 6:25-34 KJV. Thoughts are the enemy in the new testament which makes everyone guilty according to Christ if you even lust after something your in danger of breaking the law of the spirit which Pauls flesh was doing but at the same time is was not his innermans will to do so.
The the inner mirror is a great place to start when pointing fingers is my main point in all of this, how is our kingdom doing is are only concern. Plus the word hell was never used by Christ or anyone else, none of the early english bibles used it either.
And like Freelight as also explained its so far from being justified that it borders on insanity to think God would need to do such a thing.
Your westernized religion hasn't freed you at all, it has you in a mental prison, and yoked to a book without the key to unlock it..
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
transforming love.......
transforming love.......
Hi Zeke and all following,
Those interested can read the whole thread so far, and see where its been going (if anywhere). Even 'soul-death' (annihilation of conscious existence) can seem problematic as a concept, apart from just assuming a living soul can become extingished as if it had never existed before (considering such on a metaphysical/ontological level). That 'soul' would still somehow live on in the memory of 'God' and its substance or component parts would be absorbed back into the Collective, for nothing exists seperate from or outside of 'God'. There are schools that distinguish and name the various 'bodies' or 'sheaths' of man, but that another subject for when we go deeper into what parts of man are 'mortal' and/or 'immortal', or having 'immortality-potential'.
While this thread is about the 'unsound' or 'unbiblical' doctrine of 'ECT', the subject of 'soul-death' is another subject of course related, since the thread-starter holds to the concept as an acceptable alternative to ECT. Could you or I imagine ourselves NOT existing? its a wonderful thing to ponder,...imagine yourself totally wiped out (is it possible, or only a 'concept'? ) You are no longer existing as a living conscious personality,...you are no more. Nil. Zip. Nada. While I've entertained this concept from a biblical perspective and from other sources such as the Urantia Book and ascended master teachings...there is more to research. Nothing like being obliterated
In general, most spiritualist resources, NDE and Afterlife research seems to support Universalism, and this view does have its biblical and logical/reasonable supports. We might agree that the principle or dynamic of 'sin' or 'iniquity' in and of itself is 'death', and it has no power of life, eternality, immortality or truth,...thus its 'seed' and 'fruit' is already 'nothing', 'oblivion', 'destruction', 'death'. From a biblical perspective it is this sin principle that produces death, yet how far 'sin' can infect a living soul and bring about its demise or eternal death is the question here, if indeed we assume that the wicked shall perish (whatever that truly means). In any case,....the law of karma carries out its universal movement in perfect measures, and all things are working according to such laws, which ultimately are governed by the divine higher laws of providence and wisdom, inspired by divine love and will.
There is much more to the picture though, than just rejecting ECT, as we consider the possibilities of 'soul-death' and 'universalism', and many of the elements that determine or condition the progress or eternal life of souls in the Afterlife. God's laws are wholly just yet founded on the constitution of his divine character, so these principles never change, so that there is ultimately perfect justice in the cosmos, and His love for the individual soul never wanes or suffers, except that which a soul itself could refuse or reject within its limited power of free will. But ever still, nothing outshines or is more powerful than divine providence and the divine will sustains all life.
To that, God's glory is revealed...in the restoration of all souls that have come within the gravitation of his love, and come home to their true estate. It comes down to the power of God's will and nature, in cooperation with those faculties in the soul that relate to 'God' in determining destinies. As we consider that God's LOVE is Infinite...and His will is supreme in the universal whole of existence and future eternity,...then all provisions are already inherently potent within the essence of all, and even so much more in the soul of man.
pj
transforming love.......
Hi Zeke and all following,
Those interested can read the whole thread so far, and see where its been going (if anywhere). Even 'soul-death' (annihilation of conscious existence) can seem problematic as a concept, apart from just assuming a living soul can become extingished as if it had never existed before (considering such on a metaphysical/ontological level). That 'soul' would still somehow live on in the memory of 'God' and its substance or component parts would be absorbed back into the Collective, for nothing exists seperate from or outside of 'God'. There are schools that distinguish and name the various 'bodies' or 'sheaths' of man, but that another subject for when we go deeper into what parts of man are 'mortal' and/or 'immortal', or having 'immortality-potential'.
While this thread is about the 'unsound' or 'unbiblical' doctrine of 'ECT', the subject of 'soul-death' is another subject of course related, since the thread-starter holds to the concept as an acceptable alternative to ECT. Could you or I imagine ourselves NOT existing? its a wonderful thing to ponder,...imagine yourself totally wiped out (is it possible, or only a 'concept'?
) You are no longer existing as a living conscious personality,...you are no more. Nil. Zip. Nada. While I've entertained this concept from a biblical perspective and from other sources such as the Urantia Book and ascended master teachings...there is more to research. Nothing like being obliterated In general, most spiritualist resources, NDE and Afterlife research seems to support Universalism, and this view does have its biblical and logical/reasonable supports. We might agree that the principle or dynamic of 'sin' or 'iniquity' in and of itself is 'death', and it has no power of life, eternality, immortality or truth,...thus its 'seed' and 'fruit' is already 'nothing', 'oblivion', 'destruction', 'death'. From a biblical perspective it is this sin principle that produces death, yet how far 'sin' can infect a living soul and bring about its demise or eternal death is the question here, if indeed we assume that the wicked shall perish (whatever that truly means). In any case,....the law of karma carries out its universal movement in perfect measures, and all things are working according to such laws, which ultimately are governed by the divine higher laws of providence and wisdom, inspired by divine love and will.
There is much more to the picture though, than just rejecting ECT, as we consider the possibilities of 'soul-death' and 'universalism', and many of the elements that determine or condition the progress or eternal life of souls in the Afterlife. God's laws are wholly just yet founded on the constitution of his divine character, so these principles never change, so that there is ultimately perfect justice in the cosmos, and His love for the individual soul never wanes or suffers, except that which a soul itself could refuse or reject within its limited power of free will. But ever still, nothing outshines or is more powerful than divine providence and the divine will sustains all life.
To that, God's glory is revealed...in the restoration of all souls that have come within the gravitation of his love, and come home to their true estate. It comes down to the power of God's will and nature, in cooperation with those faculties in the soul that relate to 'God' in determining destinies. As we consider that God's LOVE is Infinite...and His will is supreme in the universal whole of existence and future eternity,...then all provisions are already inherently potent within the essence of all, and even so much more in the soul of man.
pj
the only kind of universalism I would consider is where you have to keep coming back until you get it right like the 'groundhog day' movie
but
each time would be worse since the number of good people would be fewer each time
but
each time would be worse since the number of good people would be fewer each time
Zeke
Well-known member
Hi Zeke and all following,
Those interested can read the whole thread so far, and see where its been going (if anywhere). Even 'soul-death' (annihilation of conscious existence) can seem problematic as a concept, apart from just assuming a living soul can become extingished as if it had never existed before (considering such on a metaphysical/ontological level). That 'soul' would still somehow live on in the memory of 'God' and its substance or component parts would be absorbed back into the Collective, for nothing exists seperate from or outside of 'God'. There are schools that distinguish and name the various 'bodies' or 'sheaths' of man, but that another subject for when we go deeper into what parts of man are 'mortal' and/or 'immortal', or having 'immortality-potential'.
While this thread is about the 'unsound' or 'unbiblical' doctrine of 'ECT', the subject of 'soul-death' is another subject of course related, since the thread-starter holds to the concept as an acceptable alternative to ECT. Could you or I imagine ourselves NOT existing? its a wonderful thing to ponder,...imagine yourself totally wiped out (is it possible, or only a 'concept'?
In general, most spiritualist resources, NDE and Afterlife research seems to support Universalism, and this view does have its biblical and logical/reasonable supports. We might agree that the principle or dynamic of 'sin' or 'iniquity' in and of itself is 'death', and it has no power of life, eternality, immortality or truth,...thus its 'seed' and 'fruit' is already 'nothing', 'oblivion', 'destruction', 'death'. From a biblical perspective it is this sin principle that produces death, yet how far 'sin' can infect a living soul and bring about its demise or eternal death is the question here, if indeed we assume that the wicked shall perish (whatever that truly means). In any case,....the law of karma carries out its universal movement in perfect measures, and all things are working according to such laws, which ultimately are governed by the divine higher laws of providence and wisdom, inspired by divine love and will.
There is much more to the picture though, than just rejecting ECT, as we consider the possibilities of 'soul-death' and 'universalism', and many of the elements that determine or condition the progress or eternal life of souls in the Afterlife. God's laws are wholly just yet founded on the constitution of his divine character, so these principles never change, so that there is ultimately perfect justice in the cosmos, and His love for the individual soul never wanes or suffers, except that which a soul itself could refuse or reject within its limited power of free will. But ever still, nothing outshines or is more powerful than divine providence and the divine will sustains all life.
To that, God's glory is revealed...in the restoration of all souls that have come within the gravitation of his love, and come home to their true estate. It comes down to the power of God's will and nature, in cooperation with those faculties in the soul that relate to 'God' in determining destinies. As we consider that God's LOVE is Infinite...and His will is supreme in the universal whole of existence and future eternity,...then all provisions are already inherently potent within the essence of all, and even so much more in the soul of man.
pj
Hi Freelight.
The mystery of it is part of the path, the thrill and agony of the search to be inlightened, to understand our part in the eternal being is an elusive foe that looks at us in the mirror waiting to be exposed for who, and what it really IS.
Blessings Zeke.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Christian Universalism
Christian Universalism
There is support for 'Christian Universalism', as 'proof-texts' are employed by various schools of thought concerning 'soteriology' or 'eschatology'. Tentmaker is also a great resource exposing the superstitions about 'hell', and the ultimate victory of Christ's redepemption for all people.....from a 'Christian Universalist' perspective. This form of Universalism does not include 'reincarnation', but a more traditional/biblical approach to salvation whose provosion is all-inclusive, as all are made alive in Christ. - this is the gospel of inclusion, total restoration.
We might add that 'Christian Universalism' is the belief that all souls will be reconciled in Christ, as Jesus is the divine Savior-Agent instrumental in this universal salvation for all.
'Universalism' in general however includes the total context of recognizing universal values and principles common to all religious experience, no matter what culture, tradition or demonination one is affiliated with, and on the premise of there being one universal source and ultimate reality inherent to all, and encompassing all. My more liberal approach is more pure universalist in nature, although it certainly includes the Lord Jesus as a manifestation of 'God'.
Outside or inclusive of any concept of universalism, 'reincarnation' is a natural process of the soul undergoing different 'embodiments' for multiple life experiences, so that a new incarnation is that soul carrying on from where it left off, continuing its development, experience and learning. Therefore any planet receiving souls being incarnated may have souls already embodied of various temperments of 'psyche' and 'spirituality', so it doesnt follow that there would be more evil souls and less good souls in any given world, as conditions may vary on each world. All souls are 'cycled' as it were according to universal laws and principles, ultimately governed by the law of progress, as long as the soul is living and conscious, able to respond to the life-principle and divine-seed within its own being, that potential naturally unfolds itself when the conditions are right for it to spring forth.
Since my older classic thread on 'Reincarnation' is no longer extant, a new one may be coming soon New developments continue.......
pj
Christian Universalism
There is support for 'Christian Universalism', as 'proof-texts' are employed by various schools of thought concerning 'soteriology' or 'eschatology'. Tentmaker is also a great resource exposing the superstitions about 'hell', and the ultimate victory of Christ's redepemption for all people.....from a 'Christian Universalist' perspective. This form of Universalism does not include 'reincarnation', but a more traditional/biblical approach to salvation whose provosion is all-inclusive, as all are made alive in Christ. - this is the gospel of inclusion, total restoration.
We might add that 'Christian Universalism' is the belief that all souls will be reconciled in Christ, as Jesus is the divine Savior-Agent instrumental in this universal salvation for all.
'Universalism' in general however includes the total context of recognizing universal values and principles common to all religious experience, no matter what culture, tradition or demonination one is affiliated with, and on the premise of there being one universal source and ultimate reality inherent to all, and encompassing all. My more liberal approach is more pure universalist in nature, although it certainly includes the Lord Jesus as a manifestation of 'God'.
Outside or inclusive of any concept of universalism, 'reincarnation' is a natural process of the soul undergoing different 'embodiments' for multiple life experiences, so that a new incarnation is that soul carrying on from where it left off, continuing its development, experience and learning. Therefore any planet receiving souls being incarnated may have souls already embodied of various temperments of 'psyche' and 'spirituality', so it doesnt follow that there would be more evil souls and less good souls in any given world, as conditions may vary on each world. All souls are 'cycled' as it were according to universal laws and principles, ultimately governed by the law of progress, as long as the soul is living and conscious, able to respond to the life-principle and divine-seed within its own being, that potential naturally unfolds itself when the conditions are right for it to spring forth.
Since my older classic thread on 'Reincarnation' is no longer extant, a new one may be coming soon
New developments continue.......pj
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
'biblical' is just a 'word'.......
'biblical' is just a 'word'.......
ECT ( challenged on many levels)
My treatment above stands, as well as all subsequent ones in the thread here. Even among fundamentalist/traditional 'christians',...the claim of something being 'biblical' is according to their 'meaning', 'terms', 'definition', and finally 'interpretation', which makes the term 'biblical' rather 'trivial' or 'self serving'. In any case, what you have is a contest of 'interpretation' over certain passages which affects certain beliefs and assumptions, so that if u pull one card out from the castle, the whole lot falls. - so keeping the bottom cards (pre-suppositions) is most important to keep the rest of the 'building' intact.
ECT is only an 'assumption', just about as good or dismissive as any other assumption. What a man sows, that also he reaps,....and the law of karma continues, as long as any actions have consequences or effects. Sin only has power as long as it is dynamic or active, but if it is not, it has no power, reality or effect. With only the divine nature and principle alive and active in the soul,...there is only life, and death has no power or presence.
pj
'biblical' is just a 'word'.......
ECT ( challenged on many levels)
My treatment above stands, as well as all subsequent ones in the thread here. Even among fundamentalist/traditional 'christians',...the claim of something being 'biblical' is according to their 'meaning', 'terms', 'definition', and finally 'interpretation', which makes the term 'biblical' rather 'trivial' or 'self serving'. In any case, what you have is a contest of 'interpretation' over certain passages which affects certain beliefs and assumptions, so that if u pull one card out from the castle, the whole lot falls. - so keeping the bottom cards (pre-suppositions) is most important to keep the rest of the 'building' intact.
ECT is only an 'assumption', just about as good or dismissive as any other assumption. What a man sows, that also he reaps,....and the law of karma continues, as long as any actions have consequences or effects. Sin only has power as long as it is dynamic or active, but if it is not, it has no power, reality or effect. With only the divine nature and principle alive and active in the soul,...there is only life, and death has no power or presence.
pj
Interesting. So after 1,216 posts, the wages of sin is no longer death?
I'm sorry Tambora, but the Bible clearly says that the wages of sin is death, so the doctrine that the wages of sin is Eternal Conscious Torment is unbiblical.