God's Truth
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If a person does not exist anymore then their punishment has ceased.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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If a person does not exist anymore then their punishment has ceased.
It's your prerogative to disagree with me. I just told you what the Bible says. I can't make you agree with what it says. According to the Bible, the wicked will perish and the wicked will be no more. According to the Bible, all will stand before the judgment seat of Christ. according to the Bible, the wicked will go to the lake of fire, which is (According to the Bible) the second death. Death is not eternal life in hell. I never said they have rest. It's your imagination that being destroyed equals "resting".
But believe in whatever Hell you want to. I just feel compelled to tell you what the Bible says. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment or torture in Hell or Gehenna. Jesus even said "beware of the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. But I can't make you believe Jesus any more than I can make you believe me or the Bible. So believe in whatever hell you want. Whatever makes you happy.
I agree, and wonder how those who believe that the lost suffer eternal conscious torment reconcile the concept of death with the concept of "eternal life in a state of torment". I do not see how that works.
Often, believers in eternal conscious torment make one, or both, of the following moves in response:
1. They re-define "death" to mean a state of conscious awareness;
2. They suggest that it is only the body that dies as a result of sin, while the "spirit" lives on in conscious torment.
I find neither of these moves to be tenable.
Krsto
Well-known member
Understood, but if the punishment is to be annihilated, that's an eternal punishment, because it's a punishment that has eternal consequence. Think consequence, not process. The same applies to "eternal salvation." When you are in heaven the process of salvation is over, but the effects are eternal. God doesn't keep punishing a person (as a process) in the afterlife any more than he keeps saving you (as a process) in heaven.
Eternal punishment, eternal damnation, and eternal judgement, all refer to the consequence being eternal, not the process.
This is really simple English but seems to be hard for people to grasp once they've spent a lifetime thinking the wrong way. I know, I was in the same boat.
Aimiel
Well-known member
That may be your opinion, but it actually does, in light of the precepts and judicious usage of multiple Scripture passages.
Again: line upon line, precept upon precept, years of studying The Word of God and putting the clues together. The Beast will be a man who becomes possessed of Satan and his false prophet will do lying wonders and they are only mere men, as you and I are.
Because I've read, re-read, studied and meditated these Scriptures over and over until I reached the conclusion that they mean what most Christians with any semblance of orthodoxy have concluded: the Lake of Fire is eternal conscious torment for ever and ever for all those thrown into it.
I don't see where there's ANY un-proven assumptions at all. Please be more specific. God avenges, He is no monster; but He is Just.
Krsto
Well-known member
Assumptions:
Revelation is about judgement in the afterlife.
The parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus was meant to describe conditions in the afterlife.
Humans are born with immortal souls.
Eternal punishment is a process of punishment that lasts forever.
Hell has anything to do with the "underworld".
God's justice demands eternal punishment, even for one single sin.
God has a different standard of judgement for himself than he expects of us.
The beast and the false prophet represent individuals.
Eternal smoke means whatever is cast into the fire burns for eternity.
Hell and the Lake of Fire are the same thing.
Revelation should be taken literally.
A just God can not ignore sin (though he can blot it out).
All non-Christians have taken the mark of the beast.
These are just for starters. Perhaps others can add to this list.
That is not what the Bible says. According to the Bible, the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal conscious torment. Read it here:
The lake of fire is the second death, Revelation 20:14, part b. NIV
According to the Bible, you and the semblance have gotten it wrong.
But if it makes you happy to think of millions of people being tormented alive forever in hell when they are dead, go ahead and believe it. You don't have to have a correct view of judgment in order to receive eternal life from Jesus Christ. Eternal life is a free gift to all who put their faith in Him.
May God bless you forever.
Aimiel
Well-known member
That those who are relegated to judgment are subjected to a 'second death' is not the issue. I agree with the concept, I just don't see the beast, false prophet or any other human being as no longer existing, since their torment is described by Scripture as being for ever and ever. You cannot erase that from The Bible, even though you would if you could. If you keep on taking it out of The Holy Scriptures in your own way (by denial and by attacking God's Own Words) you will have your part in His Book removed. You need to believe the WHOLE Bible, not just the parts that agree with your false image of who and what your god is. The One True God doesn't pull punches and doesn't mince words. He gave us His Scripture in writing so that we could see plainly. If you keep closing your eyes you'll only see the darkness that awaits all those who ignore God's Words.
Krsto
Well-known member
So you're down to just two people burning forever? I guess that isn't too mad. Of course you have to assume they represent singular humans but hey, two is better than billions.
Krsto
Well-known member
Just turn you monitor upside down. That should solve everything.
Krsto
Well-known member
BTW, has anybody told you you have a religious spirit?
Are you interested in discussing the WHOLE Bible or just the symbolic book of Revelation? I've shown you scripture from throughout the Bible that the penalty for sin is death, but you just ignore that.
God said that if they ate the fruit they would die. Enough said?
Ezekiel said that the soul who sins will die. Not enough?
The Psalmist said that the wicked will perish and the wicked will be no more.
You need to believe the WHOLE BIBLE, not just your pet verse in Revelation, which by the way, doesn't even support your false doctrine.
Malachi said that the wicked will be as ash.
John the Baptist and Jesus both said the wicked will be burnt up by fire, not tortured alive by the fire.
Jesus said that those who believe in him will not PERISH, but will have eternal life. Jesus knew that those who reject him will perish.
God said in Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death, God said through Paul again in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 that the penalty is destruction. God said through both Peter and Jude that the wicked will be destroyed just as Sodom was destroyed. God said through John that who receives the Son of God has eternal life and whoever doesn't have the Son of God does not have eternal life.
Don't talk to me about the "WHOLE BIBLE" unless you are willing to look at the WHOLE BIBLE. The Bible does not support your false doctrine.
I have not ignored any part of the Bible. I will keep on praying that God will open your blind eyes so that you can see the truth rather than believing Satan's lie that God is cruel and tortures people forever.
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Yes? So what? Is this supposed to mean I am the devil? The Beast? You hyper-religious people are too much. 666 is a number. Before that post I had 665 posts. After that post I had 667 posts. Is math too much for for you "doctor"?
References to things lasing “forever” are not always intended to be taken literally. There is clear scriptural precedent for the use of such terms to actually denote finite periods of time. Consider this from Isaiah 34 describing the destruction of Edom, which we know has already occurred:
It will not be quenched night and day;
ts smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
Clearly, fanciful poetic language is used to describe the destruction of Edom. We know that smoke does not rise from Edom today. Therefore, "forever" does not really mean forever here.
Here is yet another example from 1 Samuel:
"Then the man Elkanah went up with all his household to offer to the LORD the yearly sacrifice and pay his vow. But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, "I will not go up until the child is weaned; then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD and stay there forever."
If one wishes to argue that the "there" in the last phrase is not a physical place (but is rather a reference to "heaven"), I think that is a debate one cannot win – please make that argument if you think you can.
These examples are powerful evidence that the writers of Scripture sometimes use references to "eternality" and "forever" in a non-literal sense.
It can therefore not simply be presumed that statements about eternal torment are to be taken literally. Of course, this argument works both ways - one might argue that one should, likewise, not presume that references to an eternal life for the redeemed are to be taken literally. Fair enough, we can have that discussion.
But I think one overall point is clear: We need to remember that the Bible is not a technical manual that is to be taken literally at each step. It clearly embodies all kinds of literary devices, so we need to be a little more sophisticated in our reading of it.
It will not be quenched night and day;
ts smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
Clearly, fanciful poetic language is used to describe the destruction of Edom. We know that smoke does not rise from Edom today. Therefore, "forever" does not really mean forever here.
Here is yet another example from 1 Samuel:
"Then the man Elkanah went up with all his household to offer to the LORD the yearly sacrifice and pay his vow. But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, "I will not go up until the child is weaned; then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD and stay there forever."
If one wishes to argue that the "there" in the last phrase is not a physical place (but is rather a reference to "heaven"), I think that is a debate one cannot win – please make that argument if you think you can.
These examples are powerful evidence that the writers of Scripture sometimes use references to "eternality" and "forever" in a non-literal sense.
It can therefore not simply be presumed that statements about eternal torment are to be taken literally. Of course, this argument works both ways - one might argue that one should, likewise, not presume that references to an eternal life for the redeemed are to be taken literally. Fair enough, we can have that discussion.
But I think one overall point is clear: We need to remember that the Bible is not a technical manual that is to be taken literally at each step. It clearly embodies all kinds of literary devices, so we need to be a little more sophisticated in our reading of it.
Krsto
Well-known member
Excellent point andrew, but I think "forever" can be taken literally, if we go by the definition of the Greek word aionios, which means "an undetermined time" which includes both infinity, since it can't be determined, and a finite time which can't be determined. In other words, it can, and is, literally used for a finite yet unspecified time. So "eternal fire" is fire that lasts for an indefinite time, which would be as long as people are born and die. Once the "fuel" stops, so do the flames.
I see that you have nothing of substance to add to the conversation, as usual. Why do you bother posting, if you don't know anything?
I gave you negative reps because of your empty spamming posts. If you don't like having a negative reputation, change your behavior.