Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Krsto]

That scripture says God is ABLE to destroy both the soul and the body in hell. Does not mean He will.

Lame.

I have scripture that says what happens to the dead that are raised. You are making up things about the wicked who die and are raised.

You have scripture that says the unsaved will suffer eternal destruction which is destruction with an eternal result just like eternal salvation is salvation with an eternal result. What else? Tossed into a lake of fire? Incinerators are for destroying and consuming, not burning something forever, though the fires of the furnace may burn forever, that is, as long as there are people being thrown into it.

Again, this is assuming Revelation is even talking about the afterlife.

 

[godrulz]

According to those scriptures the beast and false prophet are tormented day and night forever. It doesn't say anything about how long the others are tormented and one would have to conclude it's temporal since he makes a point that only the beast and false prophet are tormented forever.

They are still being tormented 1000 years later when Satan and the unregenerate join them. Together, they are all tormented day and night forever and ever. The Beast/FP are mere men. They are not the exception to the lost rule.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

They are still being tormented 1000 years later when Satan and the unregenerate join them. Together, they are all tormented day and night forever and ever. The Beast/FP are mere men. They are not the exception to the lost rule.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet , and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

That verse says nothing about those cast into the lake of fire at the last judgment.

And what is to be tormented day and night into the eons of the eons?

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Building a doctrine on one verse is unwise especially when dozens of verses disagree with your view and it is not clear that the beast and false prophet are tormented, but only that they are there where the devil is.

LA

 

[Aimiel]

According to those scriptures the beast and false prophet are tormented day and night forever. It doesn't say anything about how long the others are tormented and one would have to conclude it's temporal since he makes a point that only the beast and false prophet are tormented forever.

I see no reason whatsoever to make that conclusion, especially since both of them are human beings, just like the rest of us.

 

[Timotheos]

I do not agree with you...

It's not my intention to get you to agree with me, I just needed to tell you what the Bible said. Those who will perish and will be no more are not raised "imperishable" with those who are in Christ. The wicked will die the second death after they are raised. Only those who have put their faith in Christ will be raised imperishable. Only those who are in Christ will be like Him.

 

[God's Truth]

the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

He's not saying all men will become immortal, only Christians, unless you think he's preaching Universalism and includes non-Christians in "we shall be changed."

Immortality is granted to Christians only:

Rom. 2:7 - To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Sorry to disappoint you. I realize you thought you had a good argument. Maybe next time.

All die and are buried. All will be raised. You are adding to the scriptures when you say the wicked dead are buried and raised differently.

 

[God's Truth]

It doesn't say all people will have no rest, it says those who take the mark of the beast. Who is that? What about the non-Christians who don't live during the time of the beast? Do you believe the beast exists throughout the NT era and all non-Christians are taking his mark? You would have to in order to conclude the verse is talking about all non-Christians suffering eternally.

It's not ridiculous at all to understand a form of literature they were familiar with but that we are not familiar with. That's just good hermeneutics. It's called the Principle of First Audience. What was God saying to them? We must first understand the way they would have understood it if we want to draw understanding ourselves. That's what exegesis is all about. Drawing meaning from, rather than reading meaning into, the scriptures.

Apocalyptic literature, of which Revelation is included, and some of the OT prophets, has distinct ways of describing things that will happen on earth. We do well to learn about it if we are going to use Revelation to teach anything at all.

I did not say all people. You made that up so you could sound as if you were correcting me. I did not even say all non-Christians.

 

[Krsto]

All die and are buried. All will be raised. You are adding to the scriptures when you say the wicked dead are buried and raised differently.

You are including all people in the "we" of "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed," when Paul goes on to clearly delineate between Christians and non-Christians and spells out the advantages of being a Christian and exhorts the Christians to remain steadfast:

when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[Krsto]

I did not say all people. You made that up so you could sound as if you were correcting me. I did not even say all non-Christians.

You didn't say all non-Christians go to hell and burn there forever?

 

[God's Truth]

Lame.

I defend scripture and you call it lame.
That scripture says God is ABLE to destroy both the soul and the body in hell. Does not mean He will.

You have scripture that says the unsaved will suffer eternal destruction which is destruction with an eternal result just like eternal salvation is salvation with an eternal result. What else? Tossed into a lake of fire? Incinerators are for destroying and consuming, not burning something forever, though the fires of the furnace may burn forever, that is, as long as there are people being thrown into it.

Again, this is assuming Revelation is even talking about the afterlife.

Since it is uncomfortable for you talking about Revelation then read what Jesus says.

Mark 9:48 where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

Tell me, how is it their worm will not die but they die, what is the worm doing alive in that fire?
Tell me, the fire is not quenched, that is about their not have their fire stopped.

 

[God's Truth]

You didn't say all non-Christians go to hell and burn there forever?

Show me where I said that.

 

[Krsto]

I see no reason whatsoever to make that conclusion, especially since both of them are human beings, just like the rest of us.

You don't see any reason to make what conclusion? You are the one concluding all people suffer eternally based on these scriptures in Revelation. I'm just merely pointing out Revelation doesn't support your conclusion.

And what makes you think the beast and false prophet are singular human beings? God quite often in scripture uses animals to depict kingdoms or world systems. And how do you know he's even talking about judgement in the afterlife rather than judgement on earth depicted by events in the heavenlies, as is common for this type of literature? You make a lot of unproven assumptions to come to a theology that makes God out to be a monster.

 

[God's Truth]

You are including all people in the "we" of "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed," when Paul goes on to clearly delineate between Christians and non-Christians and spells out the advantages of being a Christian and exhorts the Christians to remain steadfast:

All die and are buried. All will be raised. You are adding to the scriptures when you say the wicked dead are buried and raised differently.

 

[Krsto]

Show me where I said that.

Isn't that what this discussion is about?

 

[Krsto]

All die and are buried. All will be raised. You are adding to the scriptures when you say the wicked dead are buried and raised differently.

I already showed you the scripture that says immortality is granted to Christians who are to "seek after it" so those who aren't granted immortality aren't raised with it like Christians are. The unsaved are not raised immortal, but they are raised incorruptible. Do you not grasp the distinction?

 

[God's Truth]

It's not my intention to get you to agree with me, I just needed to tell you what the Bible said. Those who will perish and will be no more are not raised "imperishable" with those who are in Christ. The wicked will die the second death after they are raised. Only those who have put their faith in Christ will be raised imperishable. Only those who are in Christ will be like Him.

I still do not agree with you.

The Bible says they will not have rest.

 

[Krsto]

They are still being tormented 1000 years later when Satan and the unregenerate join them. Together, they are all tormented day and night forever and ever. The Beast/FP are mere men. They are not the exception to the lost rule.

Who is being tormented 1000 years later? Scriptures please.

 

[God's Truth]

I already showed you the scripture that says immortality is granted to Christians who are to "seek after it" so those who aren't granted immortality aren't raised with it like Christians are. The unsaved are not raised immortal, but they are raised incorruptible. Do you not grasp the distinction?

Christians receive eternal life with Jesus. The wicked receive eternal punishment.

Not only that, death is thrown in the lake of fire. How is death still causing death if it does not have power anymore?

 

[Krsto]

I defend scripture and you call it lame.
That scripture says God is ABLE to destroy both the soul and the body in hell. Does not mean He will.

God gives a warning he won't follow through on? You make God out to be lame. :nono: That's lame.

Since it is uncomfortable for you talking about Revelation then read what Jesus says.

Mark 9:48 where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

Tell me, how is it their worm will not die but they die, what is the worm doing alive in that fire?
Tell me, the fire is not quenched, that is about their not have their fire stopped.

Are you familiar with metaphors? Do you know what a metaphor is?

 

[Krsto]

Christians receive eternal life with Jesus. The wicked receive eternal punishment.

Not only that, death is thrown in the lake of fire. How is death still causing death if it does not have power anymore?

Exactly! :thumb: That verse applies to Christians, to whom death has no power. Thus, Paul is talking about Christians. That was my point.

Yes, the wicked receive eternal punishment, which is a punishment with eternal consequences, much like eternal salvation is a salvation with an eternal consequence. You don't think eternal salvation means we are in heaven continually and forever receiving salvation do you? When we get to heaven (and before), we are saved, past tense. Why would you think eternal punishment would be a punishment that someone keeps receiving forever? Do learn biblical ways of expression, it will help you in your walk.