Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

Tell me, why would you think that I have not read Isaiah 66?

Because if you had read it, you would have read this:
And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
And if you had read that, you would have realized that the worms eat the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against God. And once you realized that, you wouldn't be asking me how the worm can be alive, but the dead person can't be alive. Please tell me, did you read Isaiah 66 after I asked you to or didn't you?

Why would you ever think that I did not know the worm is not the person?

Because you keep asking "How can the worm live forever and the person not live forever."

Stop being rude please.

I'm not trying to be rude.

You have not answered how and why the worm would not ever die but a person after the resurrection could die.

Why wouldn't the person be able to die after they are resurrected? So what if the worm doesn't die. The worm is not the person.

Not only that, please explain how their worm is not dying if their flesh has been destroyed a long time ago in the fire?

They are not the worm. They are destroyed. The worm is not. Look at it this way. There are two people, Bob and Sue. Bob is destroyed, Sue is not. How can Bob be destroyed if Sue is not destroyed? Because Sue is not Bob. There is a worm and there is Bob. Bob is destroyed, the worm is not. How can Bob be destroyed if the worm is not? Because the worm is not Bob, and Bob is not the worm.

The Bible says we will be raised imperishable. See 1 Corinthians 15:42.

Yes, the Bible says that WE will be raised imperishable. But those who are perishing will not be raised imperishable. They will perish in the second death because they do not have eternal life. There is only eternal life in Christ. There is no eternal life apart from Christ.

Again, how are they going to die in an imperishable body?

They do not have an imperishable body. Only those who are in Christ are raised immortal.

Again, how is it they have a worm that does not die if the body is long gone?

They are not the worm. They are dead, "their" worm eats their dead body.

Our spirits live on after the death of the body. Just because our spirits live on, that does not mean we did not die physically.

And those who are in Christ will be raised from death and will live forever with him. Those who are not in Christ will be raised, judged and sent to their second death.l Really, I am not seeing any problems here. Do you just want to argue?

 

[Timotheos]

Why is there a fire prepared for Satan and the angels that will burn forever? If the fire was made just for putting in Satan, his angels, and the wicked, then why would the fire go on eternally if the objects and reason for the fire is gone?

How is it that their worm did not die in the fire but the people did die?

In your analogy of the fire and the paper…you said the paper burned then the fire eventually went out. HOWEVER, the fire Jesus speaks of is ETERNAL.

The fire is ETERNAL, but the paper is not. The fire is eternal, but those who perish in the fire are not. The eternal fire is eternal. Those who are thrown into the eternal fire are not eternal. The fire consumes them. The fire goes on eternally because it is an eternal fire. The people do not go on eternally, because they do not have eternal life. There is only eternal life in Christ. There is not eternal life in the fire, even if it is an eternal fire.

 

[Timotheos]

Just as Jn. 17:3 is not a problem for trinitarians (despite what JWs say), so Rom. 6:23 has never been a problem for ECT.

I know. You just ignore it. No problem.

 

[Timotheos]

Mr. GodsTruth, I've been answering your many questions, so answer one of mine. According to Romans 6:23, what is the wages of sin?

 

[God's Truth]

Because if you had read it, you would have read this:
And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
And if you had read that, you would have realized that the worms eat the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against God. And once you realized that, you wouldn't be asking me how the worm can be alive, but the dead person can't be alive. Please tell me, did you read Isaiah 66 after I asked you to or didn't you?

You have a hard time not being rude. When I discuss scripture with others, they are usually scripture that I have read many times before, and then I read them again during the discussion.
The bodies are dead does that mean their spirits are dead.

Because you keep asking "How can the worm live forever and the person not live forever."

If their worm does not die what does it matter if they themselves are gone.

Why wouldn't the person be able to die after they are resurrected? So what if the worm doesn't die. The worm is not the person.

Again, it is THEIR worm…if they are long gone, what does it matter if their worm is still alive?

They are not the worm. They are destroyed. The worm is not. Look at it this way. There are two people, Bob and Sue. Bob is destroyed, Sue is not. How can Bob be destroyed if Sue is not destroyed? Because Sue is not Bob. There is a worm and there is Bob. Bob is destroyed, the worm is not. How can Bob be destroyed if the worm is not? Because the worm is not Bob, and Bob is not the worm.

What does Bob care about his worm not dying if he is long gone? Therefore, what if Bob is gone and his worm is living on. Does it hurt Bob that his worm is still alive and he is gone? Does Bob’s worm become someone else’s worm? How does the worm go on living without a body to feed on?

Yes, the Bible says that WE will be raised imperishable. But those who are perishing will not be raised imperishable. They will perish in the second death because they do not have eternal life. There is only eternal life in Christ. There is no eternal life apart from Christ.

The scripture says the dead will be raised imperishable, not just the saved.

They do not have an imperishable body. Only those who are in Christ are raised immortal.

Where do you get from the scriptures that the dead wicked will be raised in the same perishable body?

They are not the worm. They are dead, "their" worm eats their dead body.

Again, what difference does it make if they are dead?

And those who are in Christ will be raised from death and will live forever with him. Those who are not in Christ will be raised, judged and sent to their second death.l Really, I am not seeing any problems here. Do you just want to argue?

Don’t come to a discussion and debate group if you do not want others to question you. What don’t you get about that? I am not just going to believe anything you say. What is wrong with you?

 

[God's Truth]

Mr. GodsTruth, I've been answering your many questions, so answer one of mine. According to Romans 6:23, what is the wages of sin?

I have already answered that question. Study what has already been posted.

 

[Timotheos]

What is wrong with you?

Nothing.

You've been asking questions, I've been answering them. If you don't like the answers, don't ask the questions.

 

[Timotheos]

deleted duplicate post.

 

[God's Truth]

The fire is ETERNAL, but the paper is not. The fire is eternal, but those who perish in the fire are not. The eternal fire is eternal. Those who are thrown into the eternal fire are not eternal. The fire consumes them. The fire goes on eternally because it is an eternal fire. The people do not go on eternally, because they do not have eternal life. There is only eternal life in Christ. There is not eternal life in the fire, even if it is an eternal fire.

If the people do not go on eternally, then how will they be tormented day and night for ever and ever?

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Timotheos]

I have already answered that question. Study what has already been posted.

Sorry, I missed that. If you believe the wages of sin is death, why do you believe that part of the person does not die? Where is that written? And how is the wages of sin death if the person does not die? The dead person does not live on, while he is dead. You have to be alive to be alive. I'm not saying that to be rude, but there is such confusion about this. If the wages of sin really is death, then the person who sins really does die. They do not remain alive. Ezekiel 18:4 says "The soul who sins shall die". They do not remain alive. John 3:16 says they perish. Over and over again the bible tells of the fate of those who reject God. They perish, they do not live forever hating God.

I can see that you reject this. Okay, it's not my message anyway, it is the message of the Bible. Why don't we agree to disagree and walk away friends? I'll see you when Christ returns, and we will both know for certain then. You can believe the wicked also have eternal life and you can still be saved, even though the Bible says the wicked perish and the wicked are no more, so let's not argue.

 

[Timotheos]

If the people do not go on eternally, then how will they be tormented day and night for ever and ever?

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Sigh.

The people won't be tormented day and night forever and ever. The wicked will perish and will be no more, just as the Bible says. Does the BOR trump all of the rest of scripture? Does the veres you posted even say that the wicked will be tormented day and night forever or does it say the devil, the beast and the false prophet?

I give up. I can see that the eternal torment of other people is very important to your religion and you won't give it up, no matter what.

The Bible doesn't support your position.

 

[God's Truth]

Sorry, I missed that. If you believe the wages of sin is death, why do you believe that part of the person does not die? Where is that written? And how is the wages of sin death if the person does not die? The dead person does not live on, while he is dead. You have to be alive to be alive. I'm not saying that to be rude, but there is such confusion about this. If the wages of sin really is death, then the person who sins really does die. They do not remain alive. Ezekiel 18:4 says "The soul who sins shall die". They do not remain alive. John 3:16 says they perish. Over and over again the bible tells of the fate of those who reject God. They perish, they do not live forever hating God.

I can see that you reject this. Okay, it's not my message anyway, it is the message of the Bible. Why don't we agree to disagree and walk away friends? I'll see you when Christ returns, and we will both know for certain then. You can believe the wicked also have eternal life and you can still be saved, even though the Bible says the wicked perish and the wicked are no more, so let's not argue.

There is nothing wrong with arguing about what the truth is.
Would you like scripture telling you that?

Soul sleep believers try to use scripture from Ecclesiastes to support their false beliefs that our spirits do not live on after the death of our bodies, but the part of Ecclesiastes they use is about a message of if there were no God. Ecclesiastes also says the dead have no more reward (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Do you believe that the dead have no more reward? The Old Testament believers believed in a resurrection (Job 19:25-27; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; and others), so why would Solomon say the dead have no more reward if not to imagine a life without God.
Soul sleepers also use a few scriptures in Psalms to try to say the spirits of humans die with the body. There is no scripture in Psalms that says that. One must remember too that the Old Testament people did not yet have the entire gospel. Ecclesiastes is about earthly man.

 

[Timotheos]

I disagree that the message of the Old Testament is different than the message of the New Testament.

And I'm done arguing with you. You have God's Word.

 

[God's Truth]

Sigh.

Eh, sigh.

The people won't be tormented day and night forever and ever.

THAT IS WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS.

You blatantly go against what the scripture says.

The wicked will perish and will be no more, just as the Bible says. Does the BOR trump all of the rest of scripture?

What is BOR?

You cannot choose which scriptures to disregard; scripture does not contradict its self. You are just mistaken.

Does the veres you posted even say that the wicked will be tormented day and night forever or does it say the devil, the beast and the false prophet?

Tell me, in these scriptures, are not those who worship the beast the wicked?

If there will be no rest for them day or night, doesn’t that mean they will live eternally?

Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

I give up. I can see that the eternal torment of other people is very important to your religion and you won't give it up, no matter what.

The Bible doesn't support your position.

I only want God’s Truth.
You cannot help yourself from being rude, what kind of spirit are you entertaining?

 

[Aimiel]

The people won't be tormented day and night forever and ever. The wicked will perish and will be no more, just as the Bible says. Does the BOR trump all of the rest of scripture? Does the veres you posted even say that the wicked will be tormented day and night forever or does it say the devil, the beast and the false prophet?

I give up. I can see that the eternal torment of other people is very important to your religion and you won't give it up, no matter what.

The Bible doesn't support your position.

It says people...

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Why do you deny Scripture? It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Timotheos]

Why do you deny Scripture? It just doesn't make any sense.

I don't deny scripture. Read John 3:16, it might as well have been written by an annnihilationist. (I believe it WAS written by an annihiltionist, along with the rest of the Bible)

Would you do me a favor? Set out the case for eternal conscious torment. I know that there is not one verse that says "The wicked go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever while they are dead". But will you go through the Bible and tell me why you believe what you believe? Can you also go through all of the so called "proof-texts" Annihilationists us and tell me why they do not mean what they say?

 

[Timotheos]

THAT IS WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS.

You blatantly go against what the scripture says.

No, please reread the scripture. It says the devil, the beast and the false prophet. Not people. You guys seem to assume an awful lot. Read the description of the beast, and then tell me John meant us to take this literally.

I believe you guys blatantly go against what scripture says. John 3:16 says "...whosoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life", No no, that isn't right according to your side, nobody perishes and everyone has eternal life it's just a matter of where they will spend it. Well that is NOT what the Bible says. The Bible says that some perish and some have eternal life. I read the Book Of Revelation (BOR) as Apocalyptic Literature. That's how is was written. It is not "going against scripture" to understand what kind of book it is that you are reading. Please, give me a break.

 

[Ktoyou]

Read Acts 24:15

Salvation brings us to a higher level than we can imagine. Now if we cannot imagine it; there is no way to know it, other than by faith, through Jesus, some are saved.

Now you flesh is not preserved and your immortal self does not mean you look like you. Think about it, not all persons look as good as others, those is not true in Heaven.

We have come though Christ, and will be raised above the angels. What we became is beyond any comprehension, but we take it on faith, eternal happiness.

The soul is filled with the Holy Spirit, being God.

Jesus said, 'it would be better they had not been born'; as we may presume had they not been born, they would have not been evil.

Without the Holy Spirit, the soul live on, without God. There is not burning body, rather the absence of God. Those saved are not tainted by misery, such the unsaved are forgotten.

Then it gets complicated, but no human argument, beginning with “God would not do such a horrible thing: hold any meaning, as that is human thought.

Are you getting this?

 

[God's Truth]

No, please reread the scripture. It says the devil, the beast and the false prophet. Not people. You guys seem to assume an awful lot. Read the description of the beast, and then tell me John meant us to take this literally.

I believe you guys blatantly go against what scripture says. John 3:16 says "...whosoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life", No no, that isn't right according to your side, nobody perishes and everyone has eternal life it's just a matter of where they will spend it. Well that is NOT what the Bible says. The Bible says that some perish and some have eternal life. I read the Book Of Revelation (BOR) as Apocalyptic Literature. That's how is was written. It is not "going against scripture" to understand what kind of book it is that you are reading. Please, give me a break.

Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

 

[Aimiel]

Apparently Timotheous' Bible doesn't have the same words in it that the rest of our Bibles have. :duh: