Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
I didn't ignore any scripture. There is no scripture that says that people go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever while they are dead. There is no scripture that says "the wages of sin is to be tormented alive forever in hell when you are dead."
And you ARE ignoring the scripture that says that the wages of sin is death, just to make your theology seem true.
I am not ignoring any scripture, please post the scripture that you think I am ignoring.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
laws that determine soul-progress.......
laws that determine soul-progress.......
Beyond on what has been shared previously, there is just the going around in the same circles on this subject here, since each has their own prefigured and predefined explanations of what certain terms mean, regarding 'death' and the destination-possibilities of the soul, add to that 'scriptural interpretations'. My views concerning the factors and abilities of the soul's response to God's eternal LOVE still holds from a Spiritualist perspective.
The Spiritualist perspective agrees that individual consciousness continues after death and that spirit-souls continue their journey and development in the spirit-world, and may from time to time re-embody in the physical realms to continue their path of learning, balance of karma and experience that is best facilitated in the physical worlds. Hence, the principle of 'reincarnation', 'rebirth' or 're-embodiment' has its place as a natural rhythmic cycle of souls continuing their 'evolution'.
Another pivotal subject is 'soul-sleep', whether souls after physical death are 'unconscious', and then only later 'resurrected' (awakened as conscious entities). Most NDE's, psychical research, spirit-communications and other after-life/paranormal research supports the continuation of soul-consciousness in dimensions beyond the physical. But this is another subject to be continued in a new thread on NDE's and the Afterlife (since my former one on the subject was lost).
Beyond Spiritualist teaching and real psychical research on survival of consciousness,...all we have are different 'belief-systems', 'interpretations' and 'opinions' on the subject....plus the real possibility of one just admitting they really don't know. All else is speculation beyond real knowledge. Thru-out it all, the eternal principles of truth, goodness, mercy, justice, equity and love...prevails, because these principles are inherent to 'God' who upholds the very fabric of existence, and the very integrity and potential immortality of all souls. These forever stand, no matter that theolological arguments might be thrown up against the eternal virtues.
Certain dogmas only invite stalemates to constructive debate and must end in a peculiar favoritism of some point of view. The providence of 'God' and the truth of those principles that govern the movement of all beings and all consequences always prevails because they are predicated on laws. Understanding this, the details of 'theology' and 'eschatology' may vary from school to school...but it still holds that all souls being conscious, in this world or any other world....exist and meet their reward or end by those same laws.
pj
laws that determine soul-progress.......
Beyond on what has been shared previously, there is just the going around in the same circles on this subject here, since each has their own prefigured and predefined explanations of what certain terms mean, regarding 'death' and the destination-possibilities of the soul, add to that 'scriptural interpretations'. My views concerning the factors and abilities of the soul's response to God's eternal LOVE still holds from a Spiritualist perspective.
The Spiritualist perspective agrees that individual consciousness continues after death and that spirit-souls continue their journey and development in the spirit-world, and may from time to time re-embody in the physical realms to continue their path of learning, balance of karma and experience that is best facilitated in the physical worlds. Hence, the principle of 'reincarnation', 'rebirth' or 're-embodiment' has its place as a natural rhythmic cycle of souls continuing their 'evolution'.
Another pivotal subject is 'soul-sleep', whether souls after physical death are 'unconscious', and then only later 'resurrected' (awakened as conscious entities). Most NDE's, psychical research, spirit-communications and other after-life/paranormal research supports the continuation of soul-consciousness in dimensions beyond the physical. But this is another subject to be continued in a new thread on NDE's and the Afterlife (since my former one on the subject was lost).
Beyond Spiritualist teaching and real psychical research on survival of consciousness,...all we have are different 'belief-systems', 'interpretations' and 'opinions' on the subject....plus the real possibility of one just admitting they really don't know. All else is speculation beyond real knowledge. Thru-out it all, the eternal principles of truth, goodness, mercy, justice, equity and love...prevails, because these principles are inherent to 'God' who upholds the very fabric of existence, and the very integrity and potential immortality of all souls. These forever stand, no matter that theolological arguments might be thrown up against the eternal virtues.
Certain dogmas only invite stalemates to constructive debate and must end in a peculiar favoritism of some point of view. The providence of 'God' and the truth of those principles that govern the movement of all beings and all consequences always prevails because they are predicated on laws. Understanding this, the details of 'theology' and 'eschatology' may vary from school to school...but it still holds that all souls being conscious, in this world or any other world....exist and meet their reward or end by those same laws.
pj
I agree. I don't see how it could be understood otherwise.
I don't agree with that though. Since whatever we believe about eternal destiny, the Bible says that God desires that all men be saved.
They don't make the journey on their own for sure.
:bang:
When a person dies physically, they are certainly a rotting corpse in the ground no longer watching hockey on TV. This does not mean the real person (immaterial) is not conscious somewhere else in the universe.
So, the nature of death, nature of spirit-soul, nature of hell, etc. are debatable, but it must be based on all relevant evidence, not just the English word 'death' and your misunderstanding of it.
When a person dies physically, they are certainly a rotting corpse in the ground no longer watching hockey on TV. This does not mean the real person (immaterial) is not conscious somewhere else in the universe.
So, the nature of death, nature of spirit-soul, nature of hell, etc. are debatable, but it must be based on all relevant evidence, not just the English word 'death' and your misunderstanding of it.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
terms......
terms......
Indeed, Infinite Love does not change, neither its will. I was being 'satirical' with my last statement, in that in the scenario of ECT the will of Love seems to be constrained (rendered powerless to effect its desire) and the free will ability of repentance of the 'sinners' is somehow 'debilitated', so it becomes a peculiar con-fusion of sorts, which is sort of a 'double-doom' scenario. This goes back to the classic debate of the place of 'free will' in 'salvation', as soul's co-operate with God's grace. If the only reality and power upholding existence itself...is LOVE....then that is the only essential reality, being Life itself. - all other assumed conditions of 'sin' would be antiethetical to Life, hence more or less a condition of 'death'.
pj
terms......
Indeed, Infinite Love does not change, neither its will. I was being 'satirical' with my last statement, in that in the scenario of ECT the will of Love seems to be constrained (rendered powerless to effect its desire) and the free will ability of repentance of the 'sinners' is somehow 'debilitated', so it becomes a peculiar con-fusion of sorts, which is sort of a 'double-doom' scenario. This goes back to the classic debate of the place of 'free will' in 'salvation', as soul's co-operate with God's grace. If the only reality and power upholding existence itself...is LOVE....then that is the only essential reality, being Life itself. - all other assumed conditions of 'sin' would be antiethetical to Life, hence more or less a condition of 'death'.
pj
If death does not mean death, then resurrection from death have any meaning either. It is you who doesn't understand death. You believe that dead people are conscious. They are not. This is because they are dead. If they are conscious, they are not dead, and there is no reason at all to raise them to life again. You have assumed a meaning of death that is not at all biblical, and you want to force everyone else to agree with it. The Bible never once says that death is separation. The Bible says that the wicked "Will be no more". Regardless of your misunderstanding of the word "death", the wicked will be no more means that the wicked will be no more. The Bible is flat-out wrong if you are correct and the wicked continue to exist forever in hell. I am forced to either believe you, that the wicked will continue to exist forever in hell; or I can believe the Bible which states clearly that the wicked will be no more. I do not believe you, I believe the Bible instead.
I'm frustrated because the Bible is absolutely clear about this, but you refuse to accept it, AND you (and Aimiel) falsely claim that I do not not believe the Bible. Everything I believe comes directly from the Bible, but you and Aimiel refuse to see the plain truth in front of your eyes.
A duck walks into a hardware store and says "Please give me 3 pounds of grapes". The store clerk says "This is a hardware store, there are no grapes." The duck leaves. The next day the duck comes back and asks for grapes. The hardware store clerk says "there are no grapes, this is a hardware store." The next day the same thing, "I want the grapes", "there are no grapes". This goes on for a month. Finally the store clerk shouts "There are no grapes! The grapes are no more! This is a hardware store! We don't sell grapes! If you come in here again and ask for grapes, I'm gonna nail your webbed feet to the counter!" The next day, the duck comes back in and says "please give a pound of nails". The clerk says "I'm sorry, I just sold my last nail". The duck says "In that case, I'll take three pounds of grapes!" ARRRGGHHH!
Godrules and Aimiel walk up to the gates of Hell and ask Saint Peter (who is subbing for the regular guy), "Let us see the wicked souls being tormented". Saint Peter looks at them and says "There are no wicked souls being tormented. The wicked are no more, just as the Bible says." The next day Godrules and Aimiel come back, "Let us see the wicked souls". Again Peter says "The wicked are no more, just like the Bible says." This goes on for eternity. Finally Peter (who does NOT have the patience of Job) shouts "If you two come down here one more time looking for wicked souls, I'm gonna nail your feet to the brimstone!" The next day Godrules and Aimiel are back, "Got any nails?" ARRRGGGHHH!
Godrules and Aimiel walk up to the gates of Hell and ask Saint Peter (who is subbing for the regular guy), "Let us see the wicked souls being tormented". Saint Peter looks at them and says "There are no wicked souls being tormented. The wicked are no more, just as the Bible says." The next day Godrules and Aimiel come back, "Let us see the wicked souls". Again Peter says "The wicked are no more, just like the Bible says." This goes on for eternity. Finally Peter (who does NOT have the patience of Job) shouts "If you two come down here one more time looking for wicked souls, I'm gonna nail your feet to the brimstone!" The next day Godrules and Aimiel are back, "Got any nails?" ARRRGGGHHH!
Aimiel
Well-known member
The fact that the tormented souls are spoken of as if they are no more isn't just because they're dead (from a temporal perspective) but has to do with the fact that there is a great gulf (a different dimension perhaps) between those who are in Heaven and those who are in hell. We cannot see angels. Many believe they're merely mythological or that they are 'no more' because their ministry isn't necessary today. It doesn't make them any less real. Neither does the fact that the wicked 'are no more' as you've quoted...
Proverbs 10:25
As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.
I look around, but I don't see my grandparents, who were my best Christian example to me when I was growing up in an un-believing home. It doesn't mean they aren't my foundation. I look around and the wicked people I witnessed as I grew up 'are no more' (they're dead and buried) but most significantly: my memory doesn't hold onto them or the things I saw them do or even the evil things they did to me. You're trying to make a doctrine out of too insignificant of a body of evidence. Yes, the wicked are no more, since they're dead. God doesn't say anywhere in The Holy Scriptures that wicked people will be poofed out of existence. It's a stretch to believe that, since there are so many Scriptures which point to the doctrine that Christians have believed for almost two millenniums: eternal conscious torment. It's obvious that God punishes sinners for eternity. What is also painfully obvious is people's poor judgment in their own twisted efforts to make Scripture say what they desire or imagine. It's sad, really, because The Bible is written to those who are simple and is very simple to understand. Those who are wise in their own eyes cannot see the Truths of The Holy Scriptures, because they have an idol in their heart blocking their view.
Proverbs 10:25
As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.
I look around, but I don't see my grandparents, who were my best Christian example to me when I was growing up in an un-believing home. It doesn't mean they aren't my foundation. I look around and the wicked people I witnessed as I grew up 'are no more' (they're dead and buried) but most significantly: my memory doesn't hold onto them or the things I saw them do or even the evil things they did to me. You're trying to make a doctrine out of too insignificant of a body of evidence. Yes, the wicked are no more, since they're dead. God doesn't say anywhere in The Holy Scriptures that wicked people will be poofed out of existence. It's a stretch to believe that, since there are so many Scriptures which point to the doctrine that Christians have believed for almost two millenniums: eternal conscious torment. It's obvious that God punishes sinners for eternity. What is also painfully obvious is people's poor judgment in their own twisted efforts to make Scripture say what they desire or imagine. It's sad, really, because The Bible is written to those who are simple and is very simple to understand. Those who are wise in their own eyes cannot see the Truths of The Holy Scriptures, because they have an idol in their heart blocking their view.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I don't believe there will be a single word spoken against the judgment that God decrees upon anyone. He is The Righteous Judge of The Universe. When souls stand before Him and all truth is laid bare, they will admit their sin, know their fate and have absolutely no argument with God whatsoever. They will make the journey on their own because they will know they deserve their fate.
Whosover believes in him will not PERISH, but will have eternal life. The wicked perish. They will be no more, they will not inherit eternal life, they will not exist in hell being tormented, because they are no more, Though you look for them, you will not find them because they are no more. They have paid the penalty of eternal destruction. They are no more. They are deceased. They have become ash. They are consumed by fire. They are dead. They are not alive. I agree with you that you can't see the scriptures because you have a tradition sized idol in your heart blocking your view. The Bible says straight out "For the wages of sin is DEATH (not eternal life in Hell) but the gift of God is eternal LIFE in Christ Jesus our lord."
It is sad that you close your eyes to the scripture.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Goods which we have which are perishable wither and shrivel, and even though if we put them in the yard and let animals or insects devour them, they still exist. Those in hell are eternally perishing, due to the way that God designed it. The Bible does state that torment is eternal, even though you deny that it does. It is sad that you close your eyes to Holy Scriptures.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I believe that God gave us a description of eternal conscious torment in His Word. It's clear. It isn't mumbo-jumbo. I don't have to deny any verses or make up my own translation or new definitions of words to make that doctrine hold water. It's plain. I believe God's Word. You might one day believe, too. I hope so. If not, you'll know when you meet The Lord. He will clear up everyone's mistaken theology (no one has it all correct). We will see Him as He is. We will be like Him. Until then: we have controversy. We all see Him as if we're looking through a brown beer-bottle.
You know that this is not true, yet you say it anyway. The truth is not very important to you, is it? I believe that the wicked perish, because the Holy Scriptures SAY that the wicked perish. I believe that the wicked are no more because the Holy Scriptures SAY that the wicked are no more. I believe that the wages of sin is death because the scriptures SAY that the wages of sin is death. The reason that I disagree with you is because my eyes are NOT closed to Holy Scriptures.
There is no convincing you. You do not accept God's Word. You only accept the traditional spin.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I know death is real. I accept that the wages of sin is death. I also accept that after death comes judgment (for the wicked).
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
From so many many Scriptures which speak of eternal conscious torment I also know that is real. I accept The Holy Scriptures which describe it. I cannot do otherwise, because The Spirit within me tells me that these things are true. I will never go against His Word. The tradition comes from Him. The faith that His Word is Truth is in me and no one can take that faith from me. It isn't mine. It is His Faith in me doing the works. Denying His Words only makes us veer off-course.
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
From so many many Scriptures which speak of eternal conscious torment I also know that is real. I accept The Holy Scriptures which describe it. I cannot do otherwise, because The Spirit within me tells me that these things are true. I will never go against His Word. The tradition comes from Him. The faith that His Word is Truth is in me and no one can take that faith from me. It isn't mine. It is His Faith in me doing the works. Denying His Words only makes us veer off-course.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
beyond beliefs...there is reality.....
beyond beliefs...there is reality.....
One could argue that 'no more' is a metaphor of sorts, beyond any supposed implied meaning. Beyond technicalities, whatever 'state' the 'dead' are in....in this context its a 'void' or 'nothingness',...there being no 'life' whatsoever. As we've explore earlier,...we can assume various metaphysical explanations, specuations and mysteries about what 'death' is relative to individual consciousness. You're continuously discovering that going over these points is keeping the 'hamster wheel' spinning. What it comes down to is "my point of view is what the scriptures teach, and yours is wrong". Put that on "repeat" and it goes nowhere. At some point real 'dialogue' is exhausted, and all else are fumes.
ECT is just one of those peculiar assumptions held by some 'figuring' of the imagination. 'Heaven' or 'Hell' are being experienced here, always in the "now" of existence, since "now" is all that ever IS. - conditions of mind projected in some future state...are just that....'projections'.
Beyond real knowledge of anything,..there is only speculation or real ignorance (agnosis). In some cases it takes a real man to admit they don't know. On another level, it takes real insight into the nature of reality, to know reality (by direct realization/gnosis)....by identifying with it (by being it),...not worshipping a concept of it. When one recognizes the God-Self or divine reality within his own being, such knowledge is illumination and liberation.
pj
beyond beliefs...there is reality.....
One could argue that 'no more' is a metaphor of sorts, beyond any supposed implied meaning. Beyond technicalities, whatever 'state' the 'dead' are in....in this context its a 'void' or 'nothingness',...there being no 'life' whatsoever. As we've explore earlier,...we can assume various metaphysical explanations, specuations and mysteries about what 'death' is relative to individual consciousness. You're continuously discovering that going over these points is keeping the 'hamster wheel' spinning. What it comes down to is "my point of view is what the scriptures teach, and yours is wrong". Put that on "repeat" and it goes nowhere. At some point real 'dialogue' is exhausted, and all else are fumes.
ECT is just one of those peculiar assumptions held by some 'figuring' of the imagination. 'Heaven' or 'Hell' are being experienced here, always in the "now" of existence, since "now" is all that ever IS. - conditions of mind projected in some future state...are just that....'projections'.
Beyond real knowledge of anything,..there is only speculation or real ignorance (agnosis). In some cases it takes a real man to admit they don't know. On another level, it takes real insight into the nature of reality, to know reality (by direct realization/gnosis)....by identifying with it (by being it),...not worshipping a concept of it. When one recognizes the God-Self or divine reality within his own being, such knowledge is illumination and liberation.
pj
Aimiel
Well-known member
We can know from just one single verse of The Holy Scriptures that being put out of existence isn't what the Lake of Fire is for.
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Being out of existence would not ever mean that one has their part in the Lake of Fire. You have to be there to have your part in something. Those sent to the Lake of Fire have their part in torment for ever and ever.
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Being out of existence would not ever mean that one has their part in the Lake of Fire. You have to be there to have your part in something. Those sent to the Lake of Fire have their part in torment for ever and ever.
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.