So you have no interest in using a non pejorative term. Review your PMs with me. Were you sincere?
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
So you have no interest in using a non pejorative term. Review your PMs with me. Were you sincere?
Yeah sure.
ECT is not a medieval torture chamber (straw man). Punishment or suffering is not the issue as much as whether a person lives forever (two destinies) or if it is possible to cease to exist (annihilate).
Either view considers the love and holiness of God. Your arguments are sentimental, not Scriptural (when you use the Bible, you use circular reasoning/eisegesis).
I am interested in what the Bible says. I don't know what to call your false doctrine. I'm sorry.
No, I read the Bible and I believe what it says. How is that circular and sentimental? It isn't. The Bible tells us specifically and directly what the penalty for sin is: "For the wages of sin is death". Romans 6:23
"Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death", Romans 1:32
This is what the Bible says. Your idea that this is circular sentimental eisegesis is wishful thinking.
You assume your own definition of death and then argue from this. If your definition of death is wrong, then your other assumptions will be wrong. In addition to a number of problems, your understanding of death is flawed from a biblical perspective.
No it isn't. Tell me where the Bible says that death means not dead at all. It is your understanding of death that is flawed from both a biblical and medical perspective. If you think that I am wrong and dead people are not dead, I think the burden of proof is on you.
As a paramedic, I just tried to save a dead guy. His physical body is dead and lifeless as you say....BUT...the real guy is now very much still alive in heaven or hell...
The body without the spirit-soul is dead, lifeless, but the spirit-soul without the body (temporary tent) is still alive, conscious awaiting future resurrection.
So, we agree on one aspect of physical death, but spiritual death (person still alive, but dead in another sense), and eternal death are not identical.
In principle, this is what the Bible teaches, whether you agree or not:
Physical death is separation of immaterial from material (spirit, soul, body).
Spiritual death is relational separation (not cessation of being) of sinful man from holy God even while we are alive on earth in bodies.
Eternal death/second death is the final separation of moral creation from holy God forever. It is relational, not like physical death with a decaying body.
The two main destinies of man in this age are to be present with the Lord in heaven or to be separated from Him forever in hell, then the lake of fire (there will be a class who will be on earth in the millennium).
This is based on all the biblical evidence, proper word studies on eternal, soul, death, punishment, etc.
I get where you are coming from, but you are wrong.
So are you you claiming that resurrection from death is not necessary to be alive after a person is dead? You are claiming that dead people are actually not dead but alive, without ever having been resurrected by Jesus Christ? The Bible simply doesn't say that. I'm sorry that you lost a patient. But the fact is that when he died, he was no longer alive. When Jesus returns, Jesus will resurrect him to life again, along with everyone else. John 11:24. Jesus is the resurrection and the life, and whoever believes in Him will be resurrected from death and will have eternal life and will never die again. Whoever rejects Jesus will also be resurrected, but they will die again because they haven't received eternal life from Jesus.
I've heard claims like yours before, but the fact is that you are wrong. The Bible doesn't support the myth you follow. The wages of sin is death. Whoever believes in Him will not perish but will have eternal life. The wicked will perish and will be no more. The soul that sins shall die. Death entered the world through sin. This is what the Bible says, and you would do better to believe the Bible than Greek and Roman Myths about the underworld.
You keep on saying that death is separation, and you continually refuse to support that claim with evidence from the Bible. Death is not separation, death is the absence of life. Your belief that death is not death, but separation instead may be the key to your confusion. Once you believe that death is really death, then you can start to believe that there is only life in Jesus. He is the only chance we have to be resurrected from real death, and have eternal life.
According to your doctrine, nobody really dies. This makes the resurrection unnecessary. Your doctrine is false, you are wrong. The Bible is correct.
I've heard claims like yours before, but the fact is that you are wrong. The Bible doesn't support the myth you follow. The wages of sin is death. Whoever believes in Him will not perish but will have eternal life. The wicked will perish and will be no more. The soul that sins shall die. Death entered the world through sin. This is what the Bible says, and you would do better to believe the Bible than Greek and Roman Myths about the underworld.
You keep on saying that death is separation, and you continually refuse to support that claim with evidence from the Bible. Death is not separation, death is the absence of life. Your belief that death is not death, but separation instead may be the key to your confusion. Once you believe that death is really death, then you can start to believe that there is only life in Jesus. He is the only chance we have to be resurrected from real death, and have eternal life.
According to your doctrine, nobody really dies. This makes the resurrection unnecessary. Your doctrine is false, you are wrong. The Bible is correct.
Godrulz, I want to ask you a serious question and I would like an honest and complete answer. I believe that you believe the Bible is true, the word of God. So why, when I post Romans 6:23, which says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord", why doesn't this convince you that the penalty for sin is death and not eternal conscious torment?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
beyond semantics......
beyond semantics......
Nah,...its greater......its the belief in a 'God' who keeps souls in a 'hell-like' condition forever and ever, with no hope, remedy or reform....a state of abject hopelessness, misery, darkness, doom, depravity. But 'God' apparently enjoys this, since He appears to be powerless to do anything about it, even while these souls may still have the free will and ability to repent, and be saved from their wretched state. Nah,...'God' would rather shut out these souls to live eternally 'seperate' from his goodness and grace. Yep, that's LOVE for you
:thumb:
ECT (challenged)
pj
beyond semantics......
Nah,...its greater......its the belief in a 'God' who keeps souls in a 'hell-like' condition forever and ever, with no hope, remedy or reform....a state of abject hopelessness, misery, darkness, doom, depravity. But 'God' apparently enjoys this, since He appears to be powerless to do anything about it, even while these souls may still have the free will and ability to repent, and be saved from their wretched state. Nah,...'God' would rather shut out these souls to live eternally 'seperate' from his goodness and grace. Yep, that's LOVE for you
:thumb:ECT (challenged)
pj
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Remember Love's will.........
Remember Love's will.........
My former points on what factors determine how long a soul can keep itself in a hell-like condition and its ability to still respond to love, turn to 'God' and repent...are still important points in the equation of the soul's progress here, whether it continues in darkness (ignorance) or re-turns to 'light' (truth). Love's will is eternal....therefore as long as souls have the ability to repent...the path to 'salvation', 'enlightenment', 'liberation' must always be available. This has been my 'observation' thus far. In this way, I maintain a classical spiritualist-universalist position on the matter, recognizing also that some things remains 'unknowable' and are therefore 'speculative'.
Alternatively, the possibility of 'soul-death' is logical where souls undergo dis-integration of personality-potential, individuality. Those souls entering into the 'second-death' are thus de-constructed as it were, dissolved back into the primal elements,...the immortal parts returning to the immortal source and the mortal aspects 'dying' in the natural fashion. Souls that 'perish' in this case, are divorced from immortality-potential, disintegrated, expunged from existence (all elements returning to their primal source).
Beyond these details, the principle of divine love, free will and eternal providence prevails...in every circumstance. How long Love could allow a soul to suffer 'God' only knows...but is not Love long-suffering....always willing for the return of the prodigal? The Father ever waits and draws his beloved to himself...as his will and power upholds the very fabric of all that is. Only if free will is powerful enough to refuse life and choose a final and eternal death, would that soul's life-potential be lost forever, and this itsself has been the subject of debate since time immemorial. Love's will still prevails and does not change.
pj
Remember Love's will.........
My former points on what factors determine how long a soul can keep itself in a hell-like condition and its ability to still respond to love, turn to 'God' and repent...are still important points in the equation of the soul's progress here, whether it continues in darkness (ignorance) or re-turns to 'light' (truth). Love's will is eternal....therefore as long as souls have the ability to repent...the path to 'salvation', 'enlightenment', 'liberation' must always be available. This has been my 'observation' thus far. In this way, I maintain a classical spiritualist-universalist position on the matter, recognizing also that some things remains 'unknowable' and are therefore 'speculative'.
Alternatively, the possibility of 'soul-death' is logical where souls undergo dis-integration of personality-potential, individuality. Those souls entering into the 'second-death' are thus de-constructed as it were, dissolved back into the primal elements,...the immortal parts returning to the immortal source and the mortal aspects 'dying' in the natural fashion. Souls that 'perish' in this case, are divorced from immortality-potential, disintegrated, expunged from existence (all elements returning to their primal source).
Beyond these details, the principle of divine love, free will and eternal providence prevails...in every circumstance. How long Love could allow a soul to suffer 'God' only knows...but is not Love long-suffering....always willing for the return of the prodigal? The Father ever waits and draws his beloved to himself...as his will and power upholds the very fabric of all that is. Only if free will is powerful enough to refuse life and choose a final and eternal death, would that soul's life-potential be lost forever, and this itsself has been the subject of debate since time immemorial. Love's will still prevails and does not change.
pj
Aimiel
Well-known member
Only while it is still called: "Today..."
Your 'spiritualist' ways are expressly forbidden by God...
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.
Universalism is anti-Scriptural, as well. There's nothing in The Holy Scripture which suggests such nonsense.
God doesn't force Himself upon anyone. He is A Perfect Gentleman. He doesn't want to force anyone to love Him, He wants people to love Him who haven't even seen Him and yet believe that He is worthy of their love. Without doing that, you cannot see Him.
You wrongly assume that death is cessation. The problem is with your understanding/definition.
Biblically, physical death is separation of spirit-soul from body (spirit without body is alive, while body without spirit is a shell). Spiritual death is relational separation and alienation from God, not cessation of existence (Eph. 2...we are spiritually dead while physically alive). Eternal/second death is not cessation, but conscious separation of sinner from holy God forever.
At least two issues are your circular reasoning definitions of death (fail to see semantic range of meaning and your non-theological understanding) and that context determines whether physical, spiritual, or eternal death is the issue (or more than one). So, Adam did not die physically the day he ate, but spiritually (as promised). He did not seem to be condemned to eternal death (provision made), but did die physically (so did sinless Jesus).
Redemption deals with spiritual/eternal death.
Resurrection deals with physical death.
Don't forget that we bring paradigms and meanings to the text, so we can quote the same verse or countless verses and come up with different understandings (we must look at cumulative evidence, not just one proof text). Equally capable, godly believers disagree despite praying and using the Bible.
If I thought you had a case, I would change my mind. This does not mean that we are not brothers in Christ.
Thanks for answering Godrulz. Why do you think that death is not cessation? I don't think I am assuming anything about death. I never said that death is cessation, I think that death is not being alive. That isn't an assumption, it is an observation. Can you show me why you believe that people are conscious after death?
Honestly, I don't think so. I am reading the verse using the regular definitions of words. If the Bible makes plain sense, I don't need to go looking for any other sense.
You say "Biblically" death is separation of spirit-soul from body. I think the problem is your understanding of death. The Bible never says that death is the separation of spirit soul from body. Biblically, death is the condition of not being alive.
Again, the Bible does not say that death (even spiritual death) is relational separation and alienation from God. The Bible never redefines death to mean what you are saying it means.
Okay, I can see that this concept is very important to your religion, but the Bible never says that death is conscious separation of the sinner from God forever. Since God is everywhere, how can a person be alive but separated from God? More importantly, where does the Bible say that death is separation from God?
I'm sorry, using the normal meaning of the word death when I read it in the Bible is not circular reasoning, and I did not take Romans 6:23 out of context. Paul is saying that death entered the world through Adam's sin. Paul is saying that everyone dies because of sin, but we can have eternal life through Christ's gift.
The promise was not "spiritual death" but actual death, nd Adam actually died.
Adam died because of sin, but because of Jesus, Adam can be resurrected from death and have eternal life. Adam will be resurrected just like Jesus, When Jesus returns.
Redemption deals with our sin, Jesus taking away our sin and paying the price of sin for us with his death. The wages of sin is death.
Resurrection deals with death, by returning us to life.
Okay. You know that I have not reaching my understanding by only one so called "proof text". You can see that I do not use circular reasoning, I reason from the Bible using the regular definitions of words. You can see that I am not "prooftexting".
I will leave you alone now. God bless you, Brother.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Here's why I think it is not cessation of being:
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
The 'rich man' whom Jesus spoke of was not dead... but found himself in hell...
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Even in torment, he knew that his brothers would come to hell also. They were not going to cease to exist. I don't think The Bible could be more plain.
You're looking at death from the perspective of one still alive and living in the earth.
Where does it NOT?
Why do you always tell only HALF of the story? After death comes judgment...
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Yes, but those not appointed unto life suffer punishment, obviously.
Revelation 14:9-11
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Please don't say that I am only telling half of the story. Perhaps you weren't listening properly when I told the second half of the story. Do you think that could be a possibility? Let's just have a friendly discussion okay? If God has not planned to have the majority of the human race tormented in hell forever and ever that is pretty good news, wouldn't you agree?
Yes, it is true that after the first death comes judgement, but that is not the end of the story either. God judges the world on Judgment Day, and those who are found to be in Christ received eternal life, and those who have rejected Christ go to the second death, which is death, the second time. It is after they have been resurrected to life for judgment on Judgment Day. Since they did not allow Jesus to pay the wages of sin for them, (which is death) They still owe the wages of sin, which is death. They do not receive eternal life, they go to their deaths a second time, the second death.
I do read the Bible, and I don't believe what you say about Hell. I believe the Bible which says (I'm quoting here) "The wages of sin is death". Or is Romans 6:23 not in your Bible?