Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Greetings again PneumaPsucheSoma, I would be interested in how you view the Little Horn of Daniel 7. I equate this with the Papacy, the Antichrist. You seem to endorse the Papacy and the established Church in its earlier days at least.

The Pope (the office) is antichrist. So once again you demonstrate how little you know about me or about Luther himself and Lutheranism (or anything historical, for that matter).

The only book that I have read on Luther is Here I Stand – A Life of Martin Luther by Roland H Bainton 1950. I visit book sales and second hand bookshops and have also The Life and Times of Martin Luther by JH Merle D’Aubigne 1846, but I have not read this as yet. On the back cover it says “Written in the 1840s, this book has been recognised as the finest biography of Martin Luther available.”

I was interested in Bainton’s book in the chapter on The Middle Way, he says on page 200 “He rejected likewise infant baptism”. He also speaks of his contact with Muntzer who believed in direct Spirit revelation or guidance. Bainton says on page 202, “The real menace of Muntzer in Luther’s eyes was that he destroyed the uniqueness of Christian revelation in the past by his elevation of revelation in the present. Luther for himself had had absolutely no experience of any contemporary revelation, and in times of despondency the advice to rely upon the spirit was for him a counsel of despair, since within he could find only utter blackness. ... Luther freely avowed his weakness and his need of historic revelation. Therefore he would not listen to Muntzer ... At this point lies much of the difference not only between Muntzer and Luther, but between modern liberal Protestantism and the religion of the founders”. I do not know if modern Lutherism has moved away from these two commendable features.

Kind regards
Trevor

More ridiculous misrepresentation of Luther and history. Why don’t you read Luther if you want to determine anything about Luther? Wouldn’t that make more sense?

But of course there’s really not much about your theological or historical pursuits that seems to make sense. This is the mark of someone with an unrenewed mind attempting to pursue false cultic beliefs in place of the authentic historical orthodox Christian faith once delivered to the saints. Your entire ideology is contorted.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Justice

http://www.online-literature.com/george-macdonald/unspoken-sermons/31/

Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy; for thou renderest to every man according to his work.--PSALM lxii. 12.

Some of the translators make it kindness and goodness; but I presume there is no real difference among them as to the character of the word which here, in the English Bible, is translated mercy.

The religious mind, however, educated upon the theories yet prevailing in the so-called religious world, must here recognize a departure from the presentation to which they have been accustomed: to make the psalm speak according to prevalent theoretic modes, the verse would have to be changed thus:--'To thee, O Lord, belongeth justice, for thou renderest to every man according to his work.'

Mercy=

εὐφραίνω/ euphraino

To cheer.

In the Passive Voice, signifying, "to be happy, rejoice, make merry.

If you understood the Greek verb poieo and Greek grammar in general, you wouldn’t have to make these absurd posts in total ignorance.

Both Hebrew and Greek always refer to the source OF action rather than merely the actions themselves.

And you have no idea what mercy is or what it is for or toward. You have no lexical systematic, just random access to individual words to presumptively apply them according to your own corrupted understandings.

(And I read that linked article. MacDonald presents his owned ridiculously flawed personal reasoning without so much as a passing nominal understanding of ANY major words he uses, including mercy and repentance, et al. It’s beyond absurd.)

Non-linguists need to just stop attempting to extensively address doctrine and word meanings. It’s an insane debacle of self-important ignorance that is virtually unparalleled. But, of course, it won’t abate one bit because of pride and depravity. Sigh.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again PneumaPsucheSoma,

The Pope (the office) is antichrist. So once again you demonstrate how little you know about me or about Luther himself and Lutheranism (or anything historical, for that matter).

Ok, but I would like you to explain who is the little horn of Daniel 7.

More ridiculous misrepresentation of Luther and history. Why don’t you read Luther if you want to determine anything about Luther? Wouldn’t that make more sense?

But of course there’s really not much about your theological or historical pursuits that seems to make sense. This is the mark of someone with an unrenewed mind attempting to pursue false cultic beliefs in place of the authentic historical orthodox Christian faith once delivered to the saints. Your entire ideology is contorted.

I assumed that the book Here I Stand – A Life of Martin Luther by Roland H Bainton 1950 would be a reasonable assessment. I do have Martin Luther’s commentary on Romans, but I have used other commentaries that I respect as greater and better and more beneficial expositions.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Greetings again PneumaPsucheSoma, Ok, but I would like you to explain who is the little horn of Daniel 7.

I see no need to discuss scripture with non-believing antichrist cultists who are beyond correction. And why would you care what my explanation is for passages in the book of Daniel?

I assumed that the book Here I Stand – A Life of Martin Luther by Roland H Bainton 1950 would be a reasonable assessment.

Assumption. Hmmm. So you think third-party unsubstantiated opinion about someone’s views and writings are a preferable source than their own views and writings. Makes perfect sense if one is not a believer, I suppose.

I do have Martin Luther’s commentary on Romans, but I have used other commentaries that I respect as greater and better and more beneficial expositions.

Kind regards
Trevor

What resources you respect have definitely proven to be irrelevant. You continue to wildly misrepresent everyone and everything, so there’s really not much use in engaging you. Your inferences have proven to be woefully erroneous in every way, particularly in light of all your many false doctrines.

 

[Aimiel]

Yes, this is the problem with adamant claims based upon concepts. Chronology is a specific lapsed form of time in the created cosmos. Just because there is some form of durative existence in the intangible realms, it doesn’t mean that is equivalent to chronology in this realm.

Stated MUCH more succinctly than I could have ever done. :thumb:

 

[way 2 go]

Greetings again way 2 go, None of the above and I do not mind if you call us a cult, a sect or a denomination. We are a group of believers who fellowship on a common belief of the things of the Name and the things of the Kingdom of God Acts 8:5-6, 12. To become a member of our fellowship we accept those who after belief of this Gospel have been motivated to be baptised after the example of these Samaritans. We have the freedom to discuss the Bible and as a result we have a wide range of views on non-essential matters. Thus we do not produce clones.

what are your "essential matters" ?

This is an example of the range of views that we have. I believe that Samuel was actually there, temporarily raised from the dead by God to speak judgement against Saul.

Others in our meeting suggest it was only a vision, and that Samuel was not actually there. Either way, none of us would consider this to be a proof that an immortal soul or immaterial spirit of Samuel appeared

1. there is no indicator that they went to Samuel's grave to have him resurrected.
2. Saul went to someone who spoke to spirits

1Sa 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

3. the woman was surprised to see Samuel
1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice.

4.the bible says it is Samuel .
1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,

5. Saul heard Samuel
1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel.

6. the words of Samuel were true

I am glad that you allowed the first of these. Others seemed to deny this definition. I consider the second is figurative, based upon the first, and this is misused to deny the reality of death and return to the dust.

nobody denies physical death but you deny spiritual death.

spiritual death happened when they ate from the tree
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

spiritual separation
Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"

physical death is part of the curses that came after they ate from the tree
Gen 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."
Gen 3:17 And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
Gen 3:18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Does it still exists, or is it now vacant?

Abraham side is vacant

I consider the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable based on the wrong teachings of the Pharisees and Samuel was raised to witness against Saul.

show us the lies in Luke 16:19-31

Other passages state that Jesus is seated. I believe that Stephen was given a vision of the start of the second coming of Jesus, to comfort him and indicate that Jesus would raise him from the dead.

pure conjecture , do you believe the moon is made out of cheese ?

Another suggested view is that Jesus stood up at the death of Stephen in shock and horror and sympathy to Stephen. His death would not be ignored. One result was for Jesus to appear to Saul / Paul.

Mid Acts Dispensation

But Peter and John died, as per your first definition. I disagree that death is defined as a separation from God. John 11:26 needs to be understood in the same sense as Romans 4:17, that they will be raised and then never die.

Kind regards
Trevor

you are not someone who is looking for truth and as such you will never get there

Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings way 2 go,

what are your "essential matters" ?

The Gospel, as preached by Jesus and the Apostles. The following speaks of various “things”, that is the items that cover the subjects and teachings concerning the Kingdom of God and concerning the Name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
In our fellowship there is a wide range of teachings that we agree upon, starting with that there is One God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. We believe that Jesus will return and sit upon the throne of David in Jerusalem for 1000 years. We see the death and resurrection of Jesus as being representative, not as a substitute, and we identify with his death and resurrection by belief and baptism and this is the basis for forgiveness and the new life. The above will do for starters.

1. there is no indicator that they went to Samuel's grave to have him resurrected.
2. Saul went to someone who spoke to spirits

That was Saul’s intention to speak to the spirit of Samuel. He must have believed that this was possible, and one reason in his superstition that he banned witches..

3. the woman was surprised to see Samuel
1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice.

Why was the woman surprised. Was this the first time that she actually saw someone, while all other times she pretended that a spirit was there and she could convey a message from the supposed spirit? Does God normally allow a witch to bring up spirits, especially the faithful who have died?

4.the bible says it is Samuel .1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul 1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, 5. Saul heard Samuel 1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. 6. the words of Samuel were true

Yes it was Samuel and as there is no consciousness after death Psalm 6:5, then God must have raised up Samuel in order to pronounce this judgement on Saul. God also raised up Moses to appear at the Transfiguration.

nobody denies physical death but you deny spiritual death.

Spiritual death is figurative language not a real death. Spiritual death is living a life now that will result in actual death, both the first death, and with some also the second death. The faithful who suffer the first death will be raised and given everlasting life and will not suffer the second death.

spiritual death happened when they ate from the tree
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

The death that they were to suffer as a result of their sin is defined in Genesis 3:19 as returning to the dust. The phrase “in the day” is a general expression not defining an exact 24-hour day, but in the sense “when”. A sentence was pronounced on the same day however.

Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

It does not say that only their body would return to the ground and that their immortal soul or spirit would go to Abraham’s bosom.

Other passages state that Jesus is seated. I believe that Stephen was given a vision of the start of the second coming of Jesus, to comfort him and indicate that Jesus would raise him from the dead.

pure conjecture , do you believe the moon is made out of cheese ?

A sample of the many passages that teach that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God:
Acts 2:34–36 (KJV): 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Ephesians 1:20 (KJV): Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Hebrews 12:2 (KJV): Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Peter 3:21–22 (KJV): the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Revelation 3:21 (KJV): To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

you are not someone who is looking for truth and as such you will never get there
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Maybe I have already found the Truth of the Gospel in contrast to the many errors. But I continually seek to re-examine the many teachings of the Bible, and even the very basic verses and ideas reveal hidden treasures when we meditate upon them.
Galatians 2:5 (KJV): To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Colossians 1:5 (KJV): For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Getting back to your original question, what do you to believe to be the essential elements of the Gospel? And are you willing to seek for truth, the truth or the truth of the gospel or have you arrived?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[way 2 go]

Greetings way 2 go, The Gospel, as preached by Jesus and the Apostles. The following speaks of various “things”, that is the items that cover the subjects and teachings concerning the Kingdom of God and concerning the Name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
In our fellowship there is a wide range of teachings that we agree upon, starting with that there is One God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. We believe that Jesus will return and sit upon the throne of David in Jerusalem for 1000 years. We see the death and resurrection of Jesus as being representative, not as a substitute, and we identify with his death and resurrection by belief and baptism and this is the basis for forgiveness and the new life. The above will do for starters.

this gospel ?
Mar 10:21,22 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
Act 4:34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold
Act 4:35 and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.

That was Saul’s intention to speak to the spirit of Samuel. He must have believed that this was possible, and one reason in his superstition that he banned witches..

where did you get that from
because of "his superstition that he banned witches" ?


Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer
Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,
Deu 18:12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.

Why was the woman surprised. Was this the first time that she actually saw someone,

yes ,

(BTW :Saul spoke with Samuel 1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, ... Saul answered, )

Yes it was Samuel and as there is no consciousness after death Psalm 6:5,

yes it was Samuel's spirit.
1Sa 28:14 He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up,

up from here
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.

Abraham is conscious
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.

then God must have raised up Samuel in order to pronounce this judgement on Saul. God also raised up Moses to appear at the Transfiguration.

yes God raised up Moses and Samuel's spirits

Spiritual death is figurative language not a real death. Spiritual death is living a life now that will result in actual death,
both the first death, and with some also the second death. The faithful who suffer the first death will be raised and given everlasting life and will not suffer the second death.

so you just denied Christ and said everyone is spiritually dead and results in actual death.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

The death that they were to suffer as a result of their sin is defined in Genesis 3:19 as returning to the dust. The phrase “in the day” is a general expression not defining an exact 24-hour day, but in the sense “when”.

conjecture

God said that day and you deny it
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

A sentence was pronounced on the same day however.
It does not say that only their body would return to the ground and that their immortal soul or spirit would go to Abraham’s bosom.

a sentence in addition to the death of separation that happened that day.
Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"

A sample of the many passages that teach that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God:
I believe that Stephen was given a vision of the start of the second coming of Jesus, to comfort him

"I believe that Stephen was given a vision of the start of the second coming of Jesus, to comfort him"

pure conjecture , do you believe the moon is made out of cheese ?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again way 2 go,

this gospel ?
Mar 10:21,22 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
Act 4:34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold
Act 4:35 and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.

I am not sure why you quote these verses. Mark 10:21-22 speak of the need to become Jesus’ disciples, and to do this we believe the Gospel. Acts 4:34-35 describes how that the early believers spontaneously shared their goods. My understanding is that there is one Gospel from Eden, and what has occurred is that the overall view is presented in the early chapters of Genesis and then some of the detail has been added, especially in the time of Abraham, David and Jesus, and after the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Acts 8:12 (KJV): But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
The word “preaching” is S#2097 evangelizo. KJV translates as “preach” 23 times, “preach the Gospel” 22 times, “bring good tidings” twice, “show glad tidings” twice, “bring glad tidings” once, “declare” once, “declare glad tidings” once, and translated miscellaneously three times. 1 to bring good news, to announce glad tidings. 1B in the NT used especially of the glad tidings of the coming kingdom of God, and of the salvation to be obtained in it through Christ, and of what relates to this salvation.

where did you get that from
because of "his superstition that he banned witches" ?
Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer
Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,
Deu 18:12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.

1 Samuel 28:9 (KJV): And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
I was thinking of the above, and not sure if there is another earlier reference and detail. I personally do not believe that witches can actually speak to the dead, or bring up spirits. For Saul to ban them, to me, indicates that he considered that they had real power and his seeking for this witch is some indication of this. Do you consider that God would allow witches to have this power over the dead?

yes , (BTW :Saul spoke with Samuel 1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, ... Saul answered, )

If the first time, then it was God that raised Samuel from the dead. All her previous reputation as a medium was false and ineffective. This proves that mediums have no actual power.

yes God raised up Moses and Samuel's spirits

Moses appeared as a human in glory,

so you just denied Christ and said everyone is spiritually dead and results in actual death.

Every human dies, but only some are spiritually dead.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

But we have already shown that Peter and John actually died. They will be resurrected and in this sense they never die.

conjecture God said that day and you deny it
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
a sentence in addition to the death of separation that happened that day.
Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"

1 Kings 2:37 (KJV): For it shall be, that on the day thou goest out, and passest over the brook Kidron, thou shalt know for certain that thou shalt surely die: thy blood shall be upon thine own head.
I take it in the same sense as above, even though this says more.

"I believe that Stephen was given a vision of the start of the second coming of Jesus, to comfort him"

pure conjecture , do you believe the moon is made out of cheese ?

This is a repeat of what we stated earlier. Jesus could have, but did not prevent the death of Stephen. What do you suggest is the reason why Jesus stood at this very moment?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[way 2 go]

1 Samuel 28:9 (KJV): And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
I was thinking of the above, and not sure if there is another earlier reference and detail. I personally do not believe that witches can actually speak to the dead, or bring up spirits. For Saul to ban them, to me, indicates that he considered that they had real power and his seeking for this witch is some indication of this. Do you consider that God would allow witches to have this power over the dead?

we are talking about Samuel and his form , that's it .

If the first time, then it was God that raised Samuel from the dead. All her previous reputation as a medium was false and ineffective. This proves that mediums have no actual power.

we are talking about Samuel and his form , that's it .

it was Samuel's spirit.
1Sa 28:14 He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up,:think:

Moses appeared as a human in glory,

Moses was a spirit and still is til the resurrection.

Every human dies, but only some are spiritually dead.

you said :
"Spiritual death is figurative language not a real death." and
Spiritual death is living a life now that will result in actual death,

Spiritual death is real death and it happened the day Adam & Eve ate from the tree .

But we have already shown that Peter and John actually died. They will be resurrected and in this sense they never die.

Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

except in your view they are dead now.

1 Kings 2:37 (KJV): For it shall be, that on the day thou goest out, and passest over the brook Kidron, thou shalt know for certain that thou shalt surely die: thy blood shall be upon thine own head.
I take it in the same sense as above, even though this says more.This is a repeat of what we stated earlier.

your god is just a man like David and could not carry out his promise of death the day they ate of the tree

the God of the bible said "the day that you eat" and you deny it
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Jesus could have, but did not prevent the death of Stephen. What do you suggest is the reason why Jesus stood at this very moment?

Kind regards
Trevor

Jer 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
Jer 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again way 2 go,

we are talking about Samuel and his form , that's it .
we are talking about Samuel and his form , that's it .
it was Samuel's spirit.
1Sa 28:14[/URL] He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up,

Even though you want to avoid the question, does a witch have power over the spirits of the faithful. Can they actually communicate with them and bring them up from Abraham’s bosom (in OT times) or bring them back from hell or heaven in NT times? If this event regarding Samuel is the first and only ever occurrence, then how can you prove that Samuel here was only a spirit? Why not a resurrection, and we know that God can raise the dead, even for a short time in OT times, and we know that God can move people by His Spirit, through locked doors and other obstructions.

Moses was a spirit and still is til the resurrection.

Again this is your claim, but consider the following:
Luke 9:27–31 (KJV): 27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. 28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
2 Peter 1:16–18 (KJV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
I suggest from the above that Peter, James and John witnessed by an enacted vision the glory of Jesus in the Kingdom, and with him two men, not spirits, in glory. To enact this, either Peter, James and John were actually projected into the future, or Moses was temporarily raised from the dead and transformed into glory, as Jesus was also transformed into glory in His Transfiguration.

you said : "Spiritual death is figurative language not a real death." and Spiritual death is living a life now that will result in actual death,
Spiritual death is real death and it happened the day Adam & Eve ate from the tree .

My understanding of death is the death that a human or animal suffers when they breathe their last. Once they had sinned, Adam and Eve came under the sentence of this type of death, in that they were sentenced to return to the dust Genesis 3:19. It does not say that their bodies would return to the dust and that they had an immortal soul or spirit that would go to Abraham’s bosom. After their sin they had reached a stage of spiritual death, but they could pass from this state to spiritual life if they understood the covering that had been provided, and believed in the promise to Eve that her future seed would overcome sin in all its forms and possibly other teaching related to the cherubim and the way to the tree of life in the midst of the garden.

Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
except in your view they are dead now. giphy.gif

Peter died, possibly by crucifixion, but he was not spiritually dead, and will be raised when Christ returns.
Colossians 3:1–4 (KJV): 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Lon]

Greetings again way 2 go, Even though you want to avoid the question, does a witch have power over the spirits of the faithful.

Nope, even she was surprised and terrified when it happened. In all her days of being a charlatan, she hadn't expected that.

There was a lot more to this post, but does this answer the question? As to whether he was resurrected, an apparition (transparent but visible), or a disenbodied voice :idunno: I Samuel 28 suggests the witch saw someone but I'm not sure how it proceeded from there.

Help: How does this tie into eternal torment?

 

[way 2 go]

Nope, even she was surprised and terrified when it happened. In all her days of being a charlatan, she hadn't expected that.

There was a lot more to this post, but does this answer the question? As to whether he was resurrected, an apparition (transparent but visible), or a disenbodied voice :idunno: I Samuel 28 suggests the witch saw someone but I'm not sure how it proceeded from there.

Help: How does this tie into eternal torment?

the tie in would be
is existence after death possible

another example is

Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

 

[way 2 go]

Greetings again way 2 go, Even though you want to avoid the question, does a witch have power over the spirits of the faithful. Can they actually communicate with them and bring them up from Abraham’s bosom (in OT times) or bring them back from hell or heaven in NT times? If this event regarding Samuel is the first and only ever occurrence, then how can you prove that Samuel here was only a spirit? Why not a resurrection, and we know that God can raise the dead, even for a short time in OT times, and we know that God can move people by His Spirit, through locked doors and other obstructions.

no, the witch had no power in this situation.
could the witch talk to demons yes , Samuel was a surprise because he was not a demon.

Act 16:16 As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling.

Again this is your claim, but consider the following:
Luke 9:27–31 (KJV): 27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. 28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
2 Peter 1:16–18 (KJV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
I suggest from the above that Peter, James and John witnessed by an enacted vision the glory of Jesus in the Kingdom, and with him two men, not spirits, in glory.
To enact this, either Peter, James and John were actually projected into the future, or Moses was temporarily raised from the dead and transformed into glory, as Jesus was also transformed into glory in His Transfiguration.

resurrected Moses then murdered him ?

it was Moses spirit just like the criminal went ,by spirit only, to paradise
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

My understanding of death is the death that a human or animal suffers when they breathe their last. Once they had sinned, Adam and Eve came under the sentence of this type of death, in that they were sentenced to return to the dust Genesis 3:19.

the curses came after the separation
the separation death happened the day they ate of the tree , which you continue to deny.

It does not say that their bodies would return to the dust and that they had an immortal soul or spirit that would go to Abraham’s bosom. After their sin they had reached a stage of spiritual death,

spiritual death came when they ate from the tree

but they could pass from this state to spiritual life if they understood the covering that had been provided, and believed in the promise to Eve that her future seed would overcome sin in all its forms and possibly other teaching related to the cherubim and the way to the tree of life in the midst of the garden.

you make it sound like they had to believe some magic formula .

Peter died, possibly by crucifixion, but he was not spiritually dead, and will be raised when Christ returns.
Colossians 3:1–4 (KJV): 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Kind regards
Trevor

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ,

raised spiritually alive

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again way 2 go,

no, the witch had no power in this situation.
could the witch talk to demons yes , Samuel was a surprise because he was not a demon.
Act 16:16 As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling.

The appearance of Samuel then was God’s intervention, and I believe that Samuel was dead, and God temporarily raised him.

resurrected Moses then murdered him ?

Samuel is similar to what happened with Moses. When Moses is raised at the return of Jesus he will remember his last days at the age of 120, and the discussion on the Mount of Transfiguration. While he is dead then he will have no consciousness Psalm 6:5. When God told Moses that he would die when he was 120, was this murder? Our lives are in God's hand.

it was Moses spirit just like the criminal went ,by spirit only, to paradise
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Jesus was in the tomb for three days. I prefer the translation “I say unto you this day, you will be with me in Paradise.” This is a direct answer to the thief’s question, not the introduction of a new concept. The thief will be in Paradise, the restoration of the Garden of Eden, the Kingdom of God on earth, when Jesus returns to establish His Kingdom.

you make it sound like they had to believe some magic formula .

They had to believe the Gospel, and the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation Romans 1:16-17.

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ,
raised spiritually alive

Yes, but those that are spiritually alive still die, and sleep in the dust of the earth until the return of Jesus and the resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Aimiel]

Samuel is similar to what happened with Moses. When Moses is raised at the return of Jesus he will remember his last days at the age of 120, and the discussion on the Mount of Transfiguration. While he is dead then he will have no consciousness Psalm 6:5.

Moses is not dead. He is alive in Paradise.

When God told Moses that he would die when he was 120, was this murder?

Did God kill him?

Jesus was in the tomb for three days. I prefer the translation “I say unto you this day, you will be with me in Paradise.” This is a direct answer to the thief’s question, not the introduction of a new concept. The thief will be in Paradise, the restoration of the Garden of Eden, the Kingdom of God on earth, when Jesus returns to establish His Kingdom.

No, the Paradise He was speaking of is where believers are, awaiting Jesus' intervention to remove all believers away to the Marriage Supper of The Lamb, some call: The Rapture.

Yes, but those that are spiritually alive still die, and sleep in the dust of the earth until the return of Jesus and the resurrection.

God isn't subject to time as we are and the resurrection of the dead will take place and it will be on the day of Judgement, when all who've ever lived will face either judgement or be allowed into Heaven on account of Jesus' Blood having blotted out all of their sin.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Aimiel ,

Moses is not dead. He is alive in Paradise. Did God kill him? No, the Paradise He was speaking of is where believers are, awaiting Jesus' intervention to remove all believers away to the Marriage Supper of The Lamb, some call: The Rapture.God isn't subject to time as we are and the resurrection of the dead will take place and it will be on the day of Judgement, when all who've ever lived will face either judgement or be allowed into Heaven on account of Jesus' Blood having blotted out all of their sin.

In your understanding, is Paradise another name for Heaven? Or is it Abraham’s bosom?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Aimiel]

Greetings Aimiel ,In your understanding, is Paradise another name for Heaven? Or is it Abraham’s bosom?

I'd say it's a holding place, although those who have passed over, time isn't the same for them. Remember how Scripture says a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years? In the spirit realm, time is not linear as we observe it here in the temporal realm. Our 'version' of time is only temporary.

 

[way 2 go]

Greetings again way 2 go, The appearance of Samuel then was God’s intervention, and I believe that Samuel was dead, and God temporarily raised him.

you do realize the medium saw Samuel coming up before Saul did

God did not kill Samuel after and leave his body to be buried by the witch & Saul

Samuel's spirit ,not body

1Sa 28:14He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up,

Samuel is similar to what happened with Moses.

yes , it was Moses spirit , Jesus didn't kill Moses and leave his body there for Peter to bury

When Moses is raised at the return of Jesus he will remember his last days at the age of 120, and the discussion on the Mount of Transfiguration. While he is dead then he will have no consciousness Psalm 6:5. When God told Moses that he would die when he was 120, was this murder? Our lives are in God's hand.

Moses is with God now

Jesus was in the tomb for three days. I prefer the translation “I say unto you this day, you will be with me in Paradise.”

you prefer your own translation , I will stick with the truth
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

This is a direct answer to the thief’s question, not the introduction of a new concept. The thief will be in Paradise, the restoration of the Garden of Eden, the Kingdom of God on earth, when Jesus returns to establish His Kingdom.

the criminal went to paradise that day

Yes, but those that are spiritually alive still die, and sleep in the dust of the earth until the return of Jesus and the resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

:nono:


Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Aimiel,

I'd say it's a holding place, although those who have passed over, time isn't the same for them. Remember how Scripture says a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years? In the spirit realm, time is not linear as we observe it here in the temporal realm. Our 'version' of time is only temporary.

So Jesus went to Paradise with the thief on that day and three days later he left him until the Second Coming. Are the good and bad in Paradise or only the good and the wicked are being burnt in hell like the Rich Man in the Parable. And when is the judgement seat to determine the fate of the good and bad, at death or the Second Coming 2 Timothy 4:1? But Acts 2:31 says that the soul of Jesus was in "hell" or as I believe that this is teaching that his soul was in the grave. I do not accept your concepts of time.

Kind regards
Trevor