Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

FineLinen

Well-known member
Hi FineLinen,
I read some of your references. I can see some merit in some of their points. But since several talk about mercy, and how a merciful God would not consciously torment anyone forever, what length of conscious torment would you consider to be merciful? An hour? A day? A year?, A hundred years?

Dear Derf: It is clear the identical polus "made sinners" is the polus "made righteous". The process is not of concern to me or the length of time required.

Christ Holds It All Together

"We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God’s original purpose in everything created. For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels— everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him. He was there before any of it came into existence and holds it all together right up to this moment. And when it comes to the church, he organizes and holds it together, like a head does a body.

He was supreme in the beginning and—leading the resurrection parade—he is supreme in the end. From beginning to end he’s there, towering far above everything, everyone. So spacious is he, so roomy, that everything of God finds its proper place in him without crowding. Not only that, but all the broken and dislocated pieces of the universe—people and things, animals and atoms—get properly fixed and fit together in vibrant harmonies, all because of his death, his blood that poured down from the cross." -The Message-

Restoration= Apokatastasis=

From koine apo.

Apo = back again.

AND

Kathistemi

Kathistemi= to set in order.

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance–the forgiveness of our offences–so abundant was God’s grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it–the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you…"
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Perhaps we should review the entire context of St. Matthew 25. Please show me where faith is mentioned.

And the qualifications for both aionios life, and aionios punishment are what?

oh I got it now , faith in Jesus or no faith in Jesus .
 

FineLinen

Well-known member
Dear way 2 go: attempt to focus on the text before us. And while you focus on St. Matthew 25 the rest of us will consider>>>>

Questions

Here are a few questions about the common Orthodoxy of Eternal Damnation.

• If some people will end up in eternal torment, is God unable or unwilling to save them? Logically, it must be one or the other. No tricky appeal to free-will can alleviate the tension of the question.

• If we determine our destiny by our free will, then is not our will stronger than God’s will? How do we deal with passages as in Romans 9 that says we cannot resist His will?

• If some people will be tortured eternally, which is apparently the will of Satan, how is Satan a defeated foe? Doesn’t eternal torment make Satan a partial victor?

• How can there be “no more tears” if some people will be tormented forever?

• How can we say that “His mercy endures forever!” if His mercy for us, in the most practical and real terms, ends if we do not choose to follow Christ before we die?

• Given the Bible’s revealed standards of righteous and justice (which are clear and not mysterious at all), how is unending punishment just reward for temporary sin? Again, the Bible is clear on standards so saying “God’s ways are not our ways” or “It’s a mystery with God” is only an avoidance of a hard question. The question must be Biblically answered with justification from Scripture.

• If God “gives up” on those who do not choose Jesus before death, how does the parable of the 100 Sheep, with 99 found and the master leaving the 99 to find the one lost one, make any sense?

• Why does God give up on people after death?

• If eternal Hell is the price for disobeying God and living in Sin, why did God hide that from Adam and Eve and promise a different penalty? Why did God hide the most horrific fate possible, torture in Hell forever, from mankind for entire Old Testament period (probably 4,000 years)?

• How does the idea of Col 1:15-20 “restore All Things” (Ta Panta - The universal All in Greek) make any sense if some things are permanently and irrevocably isolated from and unrestored to God forever?

• Why must an omnipotent, omniscient God, who describes Himself as “Love”, settle for not having everything that has ever been made love and worship Him? Why must He settle for a divided creation in which some live in abundant joy and others live in mind-numbing torture? Is God really that weak or does He want that kind of reality?

• Why do we think that our “will” is so absolutely free, when it is affected by every little thing around us and we rarely respond from thought alone, but often from instinct built in us from birth?

• How can God be “All in All” as Revelation states He will be in the end if All is not in complete harmony with Him and His character of love, joy, peace, etc.?

• Why did God create a place of unending torture in the first place?

• How is God glorified in unending pain that does not lead to being restored to righteousness and a loving relationship to Christ?

God is the Source, the Guide, the Goal of ta panta
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Dear way 2 go: attempt to focus on the text before us. And while you focus on St. Matthew 25 the rest of us will consider>>>>

Questions

Here are a few questions about the common Orthodoxy of Eternal Damnation.

• If some people will end up in eternal torment, is God unable or unwilling to save them? Logically, it must be one or the other. No tricky appeal to free-will can alleviate the tension of the question.
neither
Heb_9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,


• If some people will be tortured eternally, which is apparently the will of Satan
where dose it say that satan's will is that himself and others be "tortured eternally "

, how is Satan a defeated foe?
we Christians can go to heaven now when we die , we couldn't before Luk 16:22-23

Doesn’t eternal torment make Satan a partial victor?
now it's torment :think:
and no Rev 20:10

• How can there be “no more tears” if some people will be tormented forever?
the people with no more tears will not be suffering

• How can we say that “His mercy endures forever!” if His mercy for us, in the most practical and real terms, ends if we do not choose to follow Christ before we die?
to those who receive his mercy

• Given the Bible’s revealed standards of righteous and justice (which are clear and not mysterious at all), how is unending punishment just reward for temporary sin? Again, the Bible is clear on standards so saying “God’s ways are not our ways” or “It’s a mystery with God” is only an avoidance of a hard question. The question must be Biblically answered with justification from Scripture.
temporary sin ? no such thing, the consequences of sin are eternal .


• If God “gives up” on those who do not choose Jesus before death, how does the parable of the 100 Sheep, with 99 found and the master leaving the 99 to find the one lost one, make any sense?
not all are his sheep

• Why does God give up on people after death?

not by faith anymore , after death you will know , no redemption for satan

• If eternal Hell is the price for disobeying God and living in Sin, why did God hide that from Adam and Eve and promise a different penalty? Why did God hide the most horrific fate possible, torture in Hell forever, from mankind for entire Old Testament period (probably 4,000 years)?
not hidden
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'
Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

• How does the idea of Col 1:15-20 “restore All Things” (Ta Panta - The universal All in Greek) make any sense if some things are permanently and irrevocably isolated from and unrestored to God forever?
all does not always mean all

all cites in the world ? no
Mat_9:35 And Jesus went throughout all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction.


• Why must an omnipotent, omniscient God, who describes Himself as “Love”, settle for not having everything that has ever been made love and worship Him? Why must He settle for a divided creation in which some live in abundant joy and others live in mind-numbing torture? Is God really that weak or does He want that kind of reality?
mind-numbing torture now .

God wants people of faith


• Why did God create a place of unending torture in the first place?
torture now. you do know the bible never says that.
• How is God glorified in unending pain that does not lead to being restored to righteousness and a loving relationship to Christ?

Psa_37:28 For the LORD loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Here are a few questions about the common Orthodoxy of Eternal Damnation.

If some people will end up in eternal torment, is God unable or unwilling to save them? Logically, it must be one or the other. No tricky appeal to free-will can alleviate the tension of the question.
He would that all men would be saved. Many think of themselves as more important or even more logical or wiser than God; yourself would be a prime example, since many Scriptures clearly state that the fate of many will be eternal conscious torment. God is just. He is love, but He is also just. Those who violate His Laws must be punished, unless they believe upon His salvation, only available through Jesus.
If we determine our destiny by our free will, then is not our will stronger than God’s will? How do we deal with passages as in Romans 9 that says we cannot resist His will?
Essentially, in Romans 9:19, Paul asks, "Who has resisted His Will?" but in Romans 9:18, he stated what God said in The Old Testament:

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Obviously, God hardens the will of those who are lost for His Purposes.
If some people will be tortured eternally, which is apparently the will of Satan, how is Satan a defeated foe? Doesn’t eternal torment make Satan a partial victor?
You don't read your Bible much, do you? Satan wanted to be like The Most High. He thought he could effect a coup of Heaven. :duh:
How can there be “no more tears” if some people will be tormented forever?
Because those who cry in hell will have all their moisture consumed by fire. Another no-brainer.
How can we say that “His mercy endures forever!” if His mercy for us, in the most practical and real terms, ends if we do not choose to follow Christ before we die?
If you reject Him too many times, eventually His Patience with you will wear out. Everyone is given chances to be saved. No one will have ANYTHING to accuse God of on the day of judgment. Every lip will be completely silent. His Judgment is perfect.
Given the Bible’s revealed standards of righteous and justice (which are clear and not mysterious at all), how is unending punishment just reward for temporary sin? Again, the Bible is clear on standards so saying “God’s ways are not our ways” or “It’s a mystery with God” is only an avoidance of a hard question. The question must be Biblically answered with justification from Scripture.
I'd have to use the chapter you pointed out above, Romans 9...

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
If God “gives up” on those who do not choose Jesus before death, how does the parable of the 100 Sheep, with 99 found and the master leaving the 99 to find the one lost one, make any sense?
He was talking about a Rabbi (Pastor) leaving his flock to bring in the one who wandered away from Truth. The folks who are genuine Christians here on TOL aren't here mostly to study theology (IMHO) but to snatch folks like yourself out of the fire of heresy into the Light of His Glorious Truth.
Why does God give up on people after death?
I don't believe that He does. Jesus went and preached to those who were asleep. I think that pretty much proves He doesn't.
If eternal Hell is the price for disobeying God and living in Sin, why did God hide that from Adam and Eve and promise a different penalty? Why did God hide the most horrific fate possible, torture in Hell forever, from mankind for entire Old Testament period (probably 4,000 years)?
Who knows. Probably because there was no salvation ready yet?
How does the idea of Col 1:15-20 “restore All Things” (Ta Panta - The universal All in Greek) make any sense if some things are permanently and irrevocably isolated from and unrestored to God forever?
Sorry, but triumphing over evil and punishing evil-doers forever is complete and utter reconciliation. He said that He will cause us to dance in the blood of our enemies.
Why must an omnipotent, omniscient God, who describes Himself as “Love”, settle for not having everything that has ever been made love and worship Him? Why must He settle for a divided creation in which some live in abundant joy and others live in mind-numbing torture? Is God really that weak or does He want that kind of reality?
He chose to create us, in spite of those who reject Him.
Why do we think that our “will” is so absolutely free, when it is affected by every little thing around us and we rarely respond from thought alone, but often from instinct built in us from birth?
No one has a gun to your head. In this country (I presume that you're a United States citizen) we are truly free. If you were Christian, I'd say you were TRULY free. You're a Universalist, which excludes you from orthodoxy. Universalism is clearly heresy.
How can God be “All in All” as Revelation states He will be in the end if All is not in complete harmony with Him and His character of love, joy, peace, etc.?
Answered above. Completely resolved because God is triumphant.
Why did God create a place of unending torture in the first place?
Scripture says that He created it for Satan and his angels (those whom he deceived).
How is God glorified in unending pain that does not lead to being restored to righteousness and a loving relationship to Christ?
How is He not? They're no longer in our way or of any threat to anyone. They're getting what they deserve. God makes an open show of them. He puts His Foot on their neck. Selah.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Where’s the comparison of aidios and aionios, which an explication of how they are related?

Where’s the comparison of eternity and aeviternity (and temporality)?

And why does everyone presume they know what death (thantos) means, both physical and spiritual? How about a concise definition?

(Hint: Thanatos is NEVER annihilation, eradication, or elimination in any sense or with finality of existence. It’s cessation of communion with environment or source of origin. Physical life from the dust of the ground; spiritual life from the breath of God. Cessation of communion, remember.)
:)
 

clefty

New member
Where’s the comparison of aidios and aionios, which an explication of how they are related?

Where’s the comparison of eternity and aeviternity (and temporality)?

And why does everyone presume they know what death (thantos) means, both physical and spiritual? How about a concise definition?

(Hint: Thanatos is NEVER annihilation, eradication, or elimination in any sense or with finality of existence. It’s cessation of communion with environment or source of origin. Physical life from the dust of the ground; spiritual life from the breath of God. Cessation of communion, remember.)
:)

Yup...here we see that Greek myth still corrupts biblical understanding...
 

rstrats

Active member
way 2 go,
re: "are you arguing against everlasting life ?"

No. I'm simply asking why the punishment mentioned in Matthew 25:46 has to be everlasting torture in the lake of fire? Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death, so why can't the punishment be everlasting death? So far there has not been a single scripture shown which specifically says - with the exception of the devil as the KJV has it - that the fate of the unsaved is to be tortured 24/7 forever.
 

rstrats

Active member
Aimiel,
re: "Then it's possible you're being facetious, because I underlined it. If you missed it, you can scroll up."


OK, I scrolled up and I can't find where you underlined a scriptural passage which says that folks are going to be tortured 24/7 for time everlasting. How about identifying the post number where you have done that?
 

clefty

New member
What an interesting way to demonstrate ignorance that English translations came from Greek texts.

What did Homer contribute to the canon?

That jews wrote in greek does not mean they included greek myth or understanding...perhaps later false shepherds did...as you wish to do now
 

Derf

Well-known member
Where’s the comparison of aidios and aionios, which an explication of how they are related?

Where’s the comparison of eternity and aeviternity (and temporality)?

And why does everyone presume they know what death (thantos) means, both physical and spiritual? How about a concise definition?

(Hint: Thanatos is NEVER annihilation, eradication, or elimination in any sense or with finality of existence. It’s cessation of communion with environment or source of origin. Physical life from the dust of the ground; spiritual life from the breath of God. Cessation of communion, remember.)
:)

I'm not quite to the point where I've considered your aidios and aionios comparison, though I appreciate the question and will consider it.

But I have considered the thanatos question some. Do you have specific verses where "thanatos" can't mean the loss of physical life (and the breath of life, as these two concepts seem to be one) and requires "cessation of communion"?

I've looked, at least a little, and almost all the verses that use "thanatos" could be talking about loss of physical life.

Some exceptions I've found:
[Rev 20:6 YLT] Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[Rev 20:14 YLT] and the death [thanatos] and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death [thanatos];

This connection between lake of fire and second death is reiterated in Rev 21:
[Rev 21:8 YLT] and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part [is] in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death [thanatos].'

I'm curious about why a second death is needed, and why is it important to define it so well, if it's really just another instance of death. Wasn't the first death good enough? Didn't it provide the punishment God warned of for sin?
 

Derf

Well-known member
Dear Derf: It is clear the identical polus "made sinners" is the polus "made righteous". The process is not of concern to me or the length of time required.

Christ Holds It All Together

"We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God’s original purpose in everything created. For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels— everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him. He was there before any of it came into existence and holds it all together right up to this moment. And when it comes to the church, he organizes and holds it together, like a head does a body.

He was supreme in the beginning and—leading the resurrection parade—he is supreme in the end. From beginning to end he’s there, towering far above everything, everyone. So spacious is he, so roomy, that everything of God finds its proper place in him without crowding. Not only that, but all the broken and dislocated pieces of the universe—people and things, animals and atoms—get properly fixed and fit together in vibrant harmonies, all because of his death, his blood that poured down from the cross." -The Message-

Restoration= Apokatastasis=

From koine apo.

Apo = back again.

AND

Kathistemi

Kathistemi= to set in order.

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance–the forgiveness of our offences–so abundant was God’s grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it–the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you…"
Dear FineLinen,

I appreciate the passages you cited, but I'm having some trouble understanding what point you're making from them. I'll give it a try, however. I think you are saying that because Christ came to restore all of creation, and unrepentant sinners are part of that creation, then you think the punishment in the lake of fire is not a permanent thing, but lasts only long enough, perhaps for each individual in it, to bring that person to reconciliation with Him. Do I have that right?
 

Derf

Well-known member
way 2 go,
re: "are you arguing against everlasting life ?"

No. I'm simply asking why the punishment mentioned in Matthew 25:46 has to be everlasting torture in the lake of fire? Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death, so why can't the punishment be everlasting death? So far there has not been a single scripture shown which specifically says - with the exception of the devil as the KJV has it - that the fate of the unsaved is to be tortured 24/7 forever.

Maybe more than a single verse is needed. How about these:
[Rev 19:20 KJV] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
[Rev 20:10 KJV] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[Rev 20:15 KJV] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There might be some differences as to whether the translation is correct, but the verses appear to say:
1. The devil is tortured for ever and ever (24/7, as you pointed out)
2. The beast and false prophet were cast alive into the same fire.
3. The beast and false prophet were still there 1000 years later.
4. The unsaved (everybody not in the book of life) is thrown in, too.
What would you expect to happen to all those unsaved people that would cause their torment to cease, if the beast and false prophet were still alive after 1000 years?
 

Derf

Well-known member
Where’s the comparison of aidios and aionios, which an explication of how they are related?

Where’s the comparison of eternity and aeviternity (and temporality)?

Hate to miss out on a challenge. :)

First, Since you pointed out that aidios is only used in two places, it seems like the better place to start. Here are the two verses:

[Rom 1:20 YLT] for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead -- to their being inexcusable;
[Jude 1:6 YLT] messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,

I like the Young's Literal Translation, sometimes at least. In this case, it uses both "eternal" and "everlasting" in place of aidios. But the connotation of both is limited. Start with the second one--"everlasting" is definitely NOT everlasting, because it is only "to judgment of a great day".

The first, albeit less obvious, is also not "eternal", because Paul demands that the reader understand that the observer should understand God's eternity (no small task in itself) by looking at the visible world.

I would propose, then, that "aidios" gives us a different meaning than "everlasting" or "eternal" in time, but more "everlasting" and "eternal" in POWER, as is actually written in Rom 1:20, and implied in Jude 6 (because the chains/bonds are unbreakable). Other suggestions for comparable English words might be "unconquerable", "unbreakable", "outlasting" (instead of everlasting).

So it seems to me that the uses for "aidios" don't really mean "eternal" or "everlasting", and if they don't, nor aionios, is there anything at all that the authors could have used to mean "eternal" and "everlasting"? Was even Greek lacking such a concept? I doubt that, which leads me to think that aionios is available for the concept, even if it isn't always used in such a way.

A final thought. The best way I can think of to look for aionios meaning forever is to find passages where it is compared directly with an opposing concept. John 3:16 comes to mind: "shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Is there a way to take "aionios" life as something other than "everlasting" life, since it is contrasted with "perish" (i.e., "being destroyed").

How about [Mar 3:29] But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation? Can it really mean that if one blasphemes the Holy Ghost, he is under judgment just for some period of time (and then would be forgiven??), especially when Jesus had just said that other blasphemies were forgivable?
 
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