Which is why it's such a terrible and stupid tragedy for people to choose ECT instead of receiving God's gift of salvation from it by believing His Gospel. Romans 10:9 (KJV)
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Arthur Brain
Well-known member
What's stupid is to believe that people consciously choose 'ECT' as if people somehow "know" that it's a fate, not to mention how callous such a view is.
Wrongdoing and the penalty for it are inherently integrated, and they cannot be separated. Just laws reflect this integration, they don't create it.
I don't see the callousness. It's either true or false, nonfiction or fictional. I don't think that callousness enters into it.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Rather, it may be your idea of 'justice' for people to suffer interminably if they don't "choose" right in life but it isn't for most people and common sense dictates that people wouldn't consciously "choose" such a thing regardless.
It doesn't matter what my idea of justice is. Wrongdoing itself inexorably determines its own penalty for the wrongdoer, with only one exception; the Church will avoid its eternal penalty, in believing the Gospel. Romans 10:9 (KJV) Because of what the Lord has done (1Co15:3KJV) for His Body the Church (Eph5:25KJV).
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
You're right, it doesn't matter and nor do your doctrinal beliefs where it comes to the very same thing. You're just another parrot in effect.
How much time do you think you'll need to divide any number by zero?
That's how long you'll need to reconcile doing wrong, with you not being a wrongdoer.
Trying to reconcile your wrongdoing with you not being a wrongdoer.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Love's will
Love's will
We may assume a human personality or individual soul could reject God to such completion or totality, that he is no longer conscious of God, but metaphysically we see this may be impossible...since 'God' ALONE is the one universal, infinite, absolute REALITY. This is why I've noted the philosophical problems with ECT, which brings up so many other moral/ethical issues....besides what a soul is actually capable of doing as affecting its own condition or destiny.
Now if u as a spirit, look out from the Heart of Love itself,....you may have a better insight into how Love looks upon every living soul, knowing what each soul is capable of, and what it can choose for itself,...but that LOVE is still ever being LOVE. This love is absolute in its nature, it is unconditional and unqualified. - our debate or speculation is on the soul's capacity (response-ability) and its power of choice to actually seperate itself from the very source of its own existence! - and endure an imagined eternity in hellfire, which again, on many levels is horrendous, if not insane.
I choose to consider love in its own pure reality of being, and let it be what it is, to be and act of its own WILL. - in this total surrender to love, I wholly trust it to keep me....and to guide me according to its will, which by nature MUST be eternal and infinite. - and this mind you, doesnt even REQUIRE a belief in your particular religion, dogma or creed! - because Love is Love. And that is that.
Love's will
We may assume a human personality or individual soul could reject God to such completion or totality, that he is no longer conscious of God, but metaphysically we see this may be impossible...since 'God' ALONE is the one universal, infinite, absolute REALITY. This is why I've noted the philosophical problems with ECT, which brings up so many other moral/ethical issues....besides what a soul is actually capable of doing as affecting its own condition or destiny.
Now if u as a spirit, look out from the Heart of Love itself,....you may have a better insight into how Love looks upon every living soul, knowing what each soul is capable of, and what it can choose for itself,...but that LOVE is still ever being LOVE. This love is absolute in its nature, it is unconditional and unqualified. - our debate or speculation is on the soul's capacity (response-ability) and its power of choice to actually seperate itself from the very source of its own existence! - and endure an imagined eternity in hellfire, which again, on many levels is horrendous, if not insane.
I choose to consider love in its own pure reality of being, and let it be what it is, to be and act of its own WILL. - in this total surrender to love, I wholly trust it to keep me....and to guide me according to its will, which by nature MUST be eternal and infinite. - and this mind you, doesnt even REQUIRE a belief in your particular religion, dogma or creed! - because Love is Love. And that is that.
Veritas veritate
New member
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
ETC is inconsistent with Scripture and contradicts the very nature, character, and attributes of God. For any doctrine to be true it must be consistent throughout the Bible, and, most importantly, never contradict the nature, character, or any attribute of God. It is a false doctrine based on the postulation of another false doctrine; namely, the immortality of the human soul.
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ETC is inconsistent with Scripture and contradicts the very nature, character, and attributes of God. For any doctrine to be true it must be consistent throughout the Bible, and, most importantly, never contradict the nature, character, or any attribute of God. It is a false doctrine based on the postulation of another false doctrine; namely, the immortality of the human soul.
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way 2 go
Well-known member
eternal conscious punishment is biblical
Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Veritas veritate
New member
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
Actually, the Hebrew word that is translated as eternal means no such thing. It literally means “time out of mind” we would say unthinkable or unimaginable.
The root for the Greek Word is aion, which literally means an age. Aionios, is the adjective form which cannot have more force than its root. It’s like elder and elderly, elderly cannot have a greater force than the root elder. Again the context is time out of mind, which again would be unthinkable or unimaginable in today’s language. As I said, the very notion of ETC rejects the nature, character, and attributes of God and is based on the postulation of the false doctrine of the immortality of the human soul.
Furthermore, if you wish to claim that ETC is Biblical you can go ahead and believe that, but the fact that it contradicts the very being of God shows that it is false even if you think it is in the Bible. God is the final authority, not the Bible.
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Actually, the Hebrew word that is translated as eternal means no such thing. It literally means “time out of mind” we would say unthinkable or unimaginable.
The root for the Greek Word is aion, which literally means an age. Aionios, is the adjective form which cannot have more force than its root. It’s like elder and elderly, elderly cannot have a greater force than the root elder. Again the context is time out of mind, which again would be unthinkable or unimaginable in today’s language. As I said, the very notion of ETC rejects the nature, character, and attributes of God and is based on the postulation of the false doctrine of the immortality of the human soul.
Furthermore, if you wish to claim that ETC is Biblical you can go ahead and believe that, but the fact that it contradicts the very being of God shows that it is false even if you think it is in the Bible. God is the final authority, not the Bible.
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lifeisgood
New member
So, Daniel 12:2 should be translated?
Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to [time out of mind] life, and some to shame and [time out of mind] contempt.
Or
Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to [unthinkable or unimaginable] life, and some to shame and [unthinkable or unimaginable] contempt.
And Matthew 25:46 should be translated?
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into [time out of mind] punishment, but the righteous into [time out of mind] life.
Or
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into [unthinkable or unimaginable] punishment, but the righteous into [unthinkable or unimaginable] life.
Trying to make changes to my Bible so that I have it translated correctly. Thank you.
Why would you believe life is eternal then, same word used. If punishment isnt eternal, neither is life.
Veritas veritate
New member
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
I do not, you are correct, it is the same word used and it means the same thing, that is the whole point. Jesus even tells us what aonios life is, and it is not what the church teaches.
We see in John 17:3 what aonios life is, and it is then confirmed in 1 John 5:20.
It is knowing God the father through Jesus Christ.
Only God is eternal, anything that has a beginning can never be eternal. If ETC were true all those who reject Christ would have been tormented from before the beginning of the universe, would be tormented now as we speak, and forever after be tormented. That is completely ridiculous.
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I do not, you are correct, it is the same word used and it means the same thing, that is the whole point. Jesus even tells us what aonios life is, and it is not what the church teaches.
We see in John 17:3 what aonios life is, and it is then confirmed in 1 John 5:20.
It is knowing God the father through Jesus Christ.
Only God is eternal, anything that has a beginning can never be eternal. If ETC were true all those who reject Christ would have been tormented from before the beginning of the universe, would be tormented now as we speak, and forever after be tormented. That is completely ridiculous.
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Then you believe Christ wrong to state those who believe go on to everlasting life then?
What do you think happens after this life? What is your faith?
Veritas veritate
New member
I am currently at work. I cannot respond in depth now, but I will respond.
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