Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Adam did die eventually in that day.
If he died a death spiritually, that is a separation from the Lord, then notice that his fellowship with the Lord was restored as he was clothed by the Lord.
However Adam lost something of his creation which is only restored by Christ and not fully until his resurrection, though somewhat greater than at the first.
Think on that.
LA
If he died a death spiritually, that is a separation from the Lord, then notice that his fellowship with the Lord was restored as he was clothed by the Lord.
However Adam lost something of his creation which is only restored by Christ and not fully until his resurrection, though somewhat greater than at the first.
Think on that.
LA
* I don't believe in eternal torture, I didn't believe it before I didn't believe in Santa Clause. Never have. Its obvious, there is the potential for life eternal or death, cessation of existence, name erased, as if we never existed.
* The problem is that people who believe in hell fire aren't getting their ideas from apocrypha, they get them from the same Bible.
* You would be preaching to the choir. Once salvation is fully rejected there would be no further need for punishment or correction.
From my holy book:
"The affectionate heavenly Father, whose spirit indwells his children on earth, is not a divided personality—one of justice and one of mercy—neither does it require a mediator to secure the Father's favor or forgiveness. Divine righteousness is not dominated by strict retributive justice; God as a father transcends God as a judge.
2:6.7 God is never wrathful, vengeful, or angry. It is true that wisdom does often restrain his love, while justice conditions his rejected mercy. His love of righteousness cannot help being exhibited as equal hatred for sin. The Father is not an inconsistent personality; the divine unity is perfect. In the Paradise Trinity there is absolute unity despite the eternal identities of the co-ordinates of God.
2:6.8 God loves the sinner and hates the sin: such a statement is true philosophically, but God is a transcendent personality, and persons can only love and hate other persons. Sin is not a person. God loves the sinner because he is a personality reality (potentially eternal), while towards sin God strikes no personal attitude, for sin is not a spiritual reality; it is not personal; therefore does only the justice of God take cognizance of its existence. The love of God saves the sinner; the law of God destroys the sin. This attitude of the divine nature would apparently change if the sinner finally identified himself wholly with sin just as the same mortal mind may also fully identify itself with the indwelling spirit Adjuster. Such a sin-identified mortal would then become wholly unspiritual in nature (and therefore personally unreal) and would experience eventual extinction of being. Unreality, even incompleteness of creature nature, cannot exist forever in a progressingly real and increasingly spiritual universe.
2:6.9 Facing the world of personality, God is discovered to be a loving person; facing the spiritual world, he is a personal love; in religious experience he is both. Love identifies the volitional will of God. The goodness of God rests at the bottom of the divine free- willness—the universal tendency to love, show mercy, manifest patience, and minister forgiveness."UB 1955
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Zeke
Well-known member
He's At Home... In our Heart and EVERYWHERE... All... At... Once...
As the Bible plainly teaches.
Now... the topic is ECT and the bible is the recommended reference...
Okay?
Romans seven tells you what part of our nature is in hell while in the flesh, same with the Lazarus parable and Paul's teaching Galatians 4:20-28 taught as two distinct siblings instead of two natures by traditionalist like you who think its about history (not Okay) when its about divine seeds being sent here to learn about good and evil through actually going through it all, and yes its about the bible and how one receives it, by experience or through the superficial religious indoctrination that thinks they have grasp Divine thought through reading letters without revelation Galatians 1:12, Romans 11:32-35, and yes the micro is in the macro Luke 17:20-21, Acts 17:24, 1Cor 3:16, that is where Divine revelations happens not searching outside that kingdom and Temple. Okay
Lon
Well-known member
This is why I know it isn't from God. It is a man, sometimes a group, of Seventh Day Adventists rationalizing and writing about it.
Why do I know this? Because this particular is trying to understand something beyond them. You CANNOT have God's attributes divided.
It is a 'logical' impossibility. Why? Because Love DEMANDS justice. Why? Because when Love comes against unlove, that which is right MUST prevail or non-love would be 1) A co-equal and eternal with God :nono: 2) Non-love (evil, sin, hate, wickedness) would continue to exist when/where it competes with love all our days. In order to rid us of anything, it MUST first be judged and Love must be the One that does it. Some disagree, but also because God is immutable. His nature is perfection such that His expressions are consistent and measured. He neither overtly loves nor overtly judges. That means, whatever Hell is, for justice, it is indeed just, regardless of overtly sensitive creatures emoting over it. Whatever the end, it will be just, right, loving, and all the rest that God is, simply because God cannot cease to be any of these, nor does He have any one of them out of balance including Love. He 'is' Love. He also 'is' Justice, in the sense that everything you and I can possibly know about Justice with our limited capacity, comes from Him. The UB just doesn't express clear logic much of the time.
As to needing a Mediator, wholly against biblical conveyance.
Incorrect. Again, nonsense because it CANNOT be true. You 'should' be angry at atrocity. Love IS angry at atrocity.
Sometimes, these Seventh Day Adventists show they were paying attention in Sunday School, but they were trying to rewrite all of it. It is true no attribute of God is above another, but it is untrue that God is blasé about atrocity.
He hates it. Proverbs 6:16
Both of these, awkwardly written paragraphs and non-matured thought processing, not ready for expression. "Facing a world of personality..." Awkward. "God is 'discovered' to be?" :think: "Persons can only love an hate other persons..." Should be "People can..." but the statement isn't true. I can be indifferent to another person, which is neither hate nor love. I can be happy with a person, which may like something they said, but it isn't an expression of love, but an expression of reciprocation..... etc. etc. etc.
Rosenritter
New member
Lon? You are being hyper-sensitive.
When someone says "you are wrong, I will demonstrate" that is not a personal attack, and that is entirely within the normally accepted bounds of a normal healthy proper discussion. Maybe you are used to an environment where you were revered or everyone walked on eggshells, maybe you are of a tradition that would never ever come out and say "the emperor has no clothes" but this isn't that type of place.
I'll take the first example in point from your reply:
1) If you berate someone for using an authority other than scripture,
2) but then attack them when they correctly speak when their words are practically a scripture quote from the accepted Canon
3) that action is hypocritical. Your action is not consistent with your words. That is what the word "hypocritical" entails.
Notice I did not say "You are a Hypocrite" because whether you are or are not is really up to you. Someone that recognizes an action as being non-desirable and changes is not a hypocrite. Someone that refuses to change and owns the behavior becomes the hypocrite.
By the way, my example had no dependence on "innocent lives" - they were merely lives. And if you will call those conditions "atrocious" but not that which is extended by infinite duration and/or degree and/or amounts, then that does seem hypocritical...
When someone says "you are wrong, I will demonstrate" that is not a personal attack, and that is entirely within the normally accepted bounds of a normal healthy proper discussion. Maybe you are used to an environment where you were revered or everyone walked on eggshells, maybe you are of a tradition that would never ever come out and say "the emperor has no clothes" but this isn't that type of place.
I'll take the first example in point from your reply:
1) If you berate someone for using an authority other than scripture,
2) but then attack them when they correctly speak when their words are practically a scripture quote from the accepted Canon
3) that action is hypocritical. Your action is not consistent with your words. That is what the word "hypocritical" entails.
Notice I did not say "You are a Hypocrite" because whether you are or are not is really up to you. Someone that recognizes an action as being non-desirable and changes is not a hypocrite. Someone that refuses to change and owns the behavior becomes the hypocrite.
By the way, my example had no dependence on "innocent lives" - they were merely lives. And if you will call those conditions "atrocious" but not that which is extended by infinite duration and/or degree and/or amounts, then that does seem hypocritical...
Rosenritter
New member
Lazy Afternoon, did you realize that you just equated "punishment" with "day of judgment?" Those aren't the same things. The day of judgment may invoke punishments but these aren't interchangeable concepts. This is significant. All face the judgment. Not all receive eternal punishment.
If someone faced judgment, but did not receive eternal punishment, I would dare say the judgment was "more tolerable" for them.
If someone faced judgment, but did not receive eternal punishment, I would dare say the judgment was "more tolerable" for them.
I'm relieved you maintain a separation of the "hell-fire" from the disembodied mystery that awaits those that die the death in this life of these... (Jude 1:12)
As far as Hell being the final stop for the "wicked"... I disagree that these people "don't have a king"... if you go back... you will note I linked the word "king" to "self-appointed".
The Pit... or "Sheol" indeed has a "self-proclaimed" king... and even in revelation... a kingdom recognition is given.
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
This binds to Ezekiel...
Ezekiel 28 6 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God:
“Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.
8 They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.
9 “Will you still say before him who slays you,
‘I am a god’?
But you shall be a man, and not a god,
In the hand of him who slays you.
10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of aliens;
For I have spoken,” says the Lord God.’”
“Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.
8 They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.
9 “Will you still say before him who slays you,
‘I am a god’?
But you shall be a man, and not a god,
In the hand of him who slays you.
10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of aliens;
For I have spoken,” says the Lord God.’”
[/indent]Ezekiel 27 “O Tyre, you have said,
‘I am perfect in beauty.’
4 Your borders are in the midst of the seas.
Your builders have perfected your beauty.
The issue with most doctrine is that it lacks scriptural binding to exactly "who the serpent is".
You know the origin of these writings, but they indeed bind to "Beelzibul". (Lord of the Flies... or the lord of ruin)
Sea is a word that is highly overlooked in scripture. It has many various meanings... but lets go a little deeper.
Job 41 “Can you draw out Leviathan with a hook,
Or snare his tongue with a line which you lower?
2 Can you put a reed through his nose,
Or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3 Will he make many supplications to you?
Will he speak softly to you?
4 Will he make a covenant with you?
Will you take him as a servant forever?
5 Will you play with him as with a bird,
Or will you leash him for your maidens?
6 Will your companions make a banquet of him?
Will they apportion him among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his skin with harpoons,
Or his head with fishing spears?
8 Lay your hand on him;
Remember the battle—
Never do it again!
9 Indeed, any hope of overcoming him is false;
Shall one not be overwhelmed at the sight of him?
10 No one is so fierce that he would dare stir him up.
Who then is able to stand against Me?
11 Who has preceded Me, that I should pay him?
Everything under heaven is Mine.
12 “I will not conceal[c] his limbs,
His mighty power, or his graceful proportions.
13 Who can remove his outer coat?
Who can approach him with a double bridle?
14 Who can open the doors of his face,
With his terrible teeth all around?
15 His rows of scales are his pride,
Shut up tightly as with a seal;
16 One is so near another
That no air can come between them;
17 They are joined one to another,
They stick together and cannot be parted.
18 His sneezings flash forth light,
And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 Out of his mouth go burning lights;
Sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke goes out of his nostrils,
As from a boiling pot and burning rushes.
21 His breath kindles coals,
And a flame goes out of his mouth.
22 Strength dwells in his neck,
And sorrow dances before him.
23 The folds of his flesh are joined together;
They are firm on him and cannot be moved.
24 His heart is as hard as stone,
Even as hard as the lower millstone.
25 When he raises himself up, the mighty are afraid;
Because of his crashings they are beside[d] themselves.
26 Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail;
Nor does spear, dart, or javelin.
27 He regards iron as straw,
And bronze as rotten wood.
28 The arrow cannot make him flee;
Slingstones become like stubble to him.
29 Darts are regarded as straw;
He laughs at the threat of javelins.
30 His undersides are like sharp potsherds;
He spreads pointed marks in the mire.
31 He makes the deep boil like a pot;
He makes the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 He leaves a shining wake behind him;
One would think the deep had white hair.
33 On earth there is nothing like him,
Which is made without fear.
34 He beholds every high thing;
He is king over all the children of pride.”
Or snare his tongue with a line which you lower?
2 Can you put a reed through his nose,
Or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3 Will he make many supplications to you?
Will he speak softly to you?
4 Will he make a covenant with you?
Will you take him as a servant forever?
5 Will you play with him as with a bird,
Or will you leash him for your maidens?
6 Will your companions make a banquet of him?
Will they apportion him among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his skin with harpoons,
Or his head with fishing spears?
8 Lay your hand on him;
Remember the battle—
Never do it again!
9 Indeed, any hope of overcoming him is false;
Shall one not be overwhelmed at the sight of him?
10 No one is so fierce that he would dare stir him up.
Who then is able to stand against Me?
11 Who has preceded Me, that I should pay him?
Everything under heaven is Mine.
12 “I will not conceal[c] his limbs,
His mighty power, or his graceful proportions.
13 Who can remove his outer coat?
Who can approach him with a double bridle?
14 Who can open the doors of his face,
With his terrible teeth all around?
15 His rows of scales are his pride,
Shut up tightly as with a seal;
16 One is so near another
That no air can come between them;
17 They are joined one to another,
They stick together and cannot be parted.
18 His sneezings flash forth light,
And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 Out of his mouth go burning lights;
Sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke goes out of his nostrils,
As from a boiling pot and burning rushes.
21 His breath kindles coals,
And a flame goes out of his mouth.
22 Strength dwells in his neck,
And sorrow dances before him.
23 The folds of his flesh are joined together;
They are firm on him and cannot be moved.
24 His heart is as hard as stone,
Even as hard as the lower millstone.
25 When he raises himself up, the mighty are afraid;
Because of his crashings they are beside[d] themselves.
26 Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail;
Nor does spear, dart, or javelin.
27 He regards iron as straw,
And bronze as rotten wood.
28 The arrow cannot make him flee;
Slingstones become like stubble to him.
29 Darts are regarded as straw;
He laughs at the threat of javelins.
30 His undersides are like sharp potsherds;
He spreads pointed marks in the mire.
31 He makes the deep boil like a pot;
He makes the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 He leaves a shining wake behind him;
One would think the deep had white hair.
33 On earth there is nothing like him,
Which is made without fear.
34 He beholds every high thing;
He is king over all the children of pride.”
Leviathan is another name for Hades... or "Death"... or Satan... or the "false morning star"... and as you can see... he is the king over all the children of PRIDE!
Ezekiel 28 “You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”’”
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”’”
And... if you don't believe me yet... perhaps Jesus will assist in your understanding.
Luke 11 14Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15But some of them said, “He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons,” 16while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven. 17But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and a divided household falls. 18And if Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. 19And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 20But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 21When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe; 22but when one stronger than he attacks him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoil. 23Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
Here... we see the "kingdom" of Satan... (the children of pride) ... being acknowledged by Jesus.
As for the "Sea" references... lets go to a "prophetic" scripture towards final judgment involving Jesus Himself...
Luke 8:30 Jesus asked him, saying, “What is your name?”
And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered him. 31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.
32 Now a herd of many swine was feeding there on the mountain. So they begged Him that He would permit them to enter them. And He permitted them. 33 Then the demons went out of the man and entered the swine, and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the lake and drowned.
And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered him. 31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.
32 Now a herd of many swine was feeding there on the mountain. So they begged Him that He would permit them to enter them. And He permitted them. 33 Then the demons went out of the man and entered the swine, and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the lake and drowned.
Lake/Sea ... "Swine" ... "Pride" ... "Wickedness judged" ... this is a binding scripture to show the second "death".
I could go on with scripture... but this is a book... already.
I don't think you understand. You keep insisting that spiritual death is the "death" spoken of in the Gen. 2 account... When God says you shall surely die. Yet... carnal death is prescribed by God in immediate answer to the Gen. 3 account and in Gen. 5... we see that Adam... indeed died.
It is you who are adding to scripture here to assert that Hell is eternal torment. I acknowledge that this is a possibility... but... I'm armed with so much more scripture on Satan through typification and spiritual, scriptural prophecy that is "typified"... that I can assert that there is a complete extinguishing of the evil one.
The rich man is "Jewish" and "Proud". He represents Pride and simultaneously the Jews that rejected Jesus.
Indeed
This is where you begin to blur matters... this is dispensationally taking place during the "age of grace".
I, too, believe that the soul goes on after death... "in this age". So we are in agreement. But I believe that you are subscribing to a form of Preterism by not seeing the "burning jealousy" of the "rich man"... who needs "water".
How does one get water [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION]?
John 14:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
See... Lazarus was likened unto this...
Luke 16:20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
This binds immediately to "this".
Matthew 18:25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
Does this not bind to this?
Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”
I believe you are so adamant in defending eternal torture that you are missing the mark of what is being said here. I indeed see this as very important... but you are so desperate to bind this to "HELL"... that you are trashing the dispensational value of it. Are you a dispensationalist?
Do you understand the difference between Will/Desire and Permission?
It is very dangerous to misinterpret events as God being "willingly deceitful". There is much more to this story than you are bringing in and for that matter... you are blurring the line of Permissive events with God's will.
This is a very bad idea. It leads to placing wickedness square on the shoulders of Jesus. Shall we now become accusers of God?
You are making it as if God is puppeting Satan and you are missing that God does not force any creation to act in any manner. God allows Creation to impact creation... but God can use what bad is done to bring about good.
Are you a free will theist?
In this Age... but there are much more matters in scripture that you are missing, before drawing your conclusion as to what will and will not be when day and night is no more... and all is One in Jesus. "The New Heaven and New Earth"
For someone that is "tormented" in the flame... they are speaking pretty calmly. I'm not sure if you are prepared to delve deeper into this. This is a core pinion to your doctrine and it isn't dispensationally accurate to strike "Hellfire" in "this dispensational age". This is not a post "grace age" story. It is in reference to what happens "after" Jesus' DBR.
Me too... but you are missing so much in this story... that I'm wondering how much of this you realize is taken from many other events that occur in the Gospels.
This is irrelevant because you are using a verse about "spiritual death, while alive now". You are bending the intent of this verse.
Yes and No... He became spiritually blind and carnally skewed in sight. This is not the "Death" that Gen. 2 refers to. You are, again, trying to force scripture to back your doctrine. You can say that Adam "spiritually died" that day... but He could still "Hear the voice of God". So... you are squeezing this too hard and forcing too many interjections into the natural flow of scripture here.
You are showing a state of being "alive in the flesh"... while... "blind/spiritually dead". This does not help your argument in the least.
Again... you are avoiding the fact that Adam "died" in Gen. 5. I agree that his soul went to Sheol... or the Bosom of Abraham... but I don't know the full of it... because I'm not God and scripture doesn't say.
I agree with you to a degree... but I can't help but note that you keep overlooking the actual flesh death of Adam in Gen. 5. This is a Death that is initiated by "Satan"... and quite frankly... Jesus says He can do the same thing to the Soul.
The Body Decays and scripture speaks of this. Heck... we know this as a medical fact. The body ceases. Are you denying that there is a "possibility" that Jesus could "cease a soul"?
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I'll be back on in an hour to catch up.... All respect.
- EE
- EE
Rosenritter
New member
I would be happy for a moderator, even a couple people to say "point was supported" or "point was not sufficiently supported" with "here is what you would need for support" would be helpful. OR "these points were brought up, please answer before continuing." People get frustrated quickly when there seems to be a lack of rules and "victory" becomes something that can be achieved by simply deadlocking the conversation.
I apologize if my animation has become too extreme from time to time, and will try to improve.
I apologize if my animation has become too extreme from time to time, and will try to improve.
Rosenritter
New member
Caino, if you only care what you believe, then entering a discussion of this sort is pointless. We are here because we do care what others believe. I continue to stand by that there is no conflicting teaching in the Bible, that it is by the same author, and I am willing to address any alleged contradictions. Calmly, without accusation or belittling for bringing it up. You can use private message if you like: at least give me a chance to answer (Daniel made the same request of Nebuchadnezzar.)
Rosenritter
New member
I know of one passage that does convince some honest people of never-ending torture in hell fire. It's based on reading a single passage in the New Testament with ignorance of the Old Testament that it's based on, but they're not being dishonest about it. It looks confusing without the proper context.
Rosenritter
New member
Hell is not misused in the King James. It's likely derived from the Hebrew sheol, and like the word "Hades" it also is used in relation to a god of a mythological underworld. In English the word comes from "hel" meaning "hidden" like as in the word "helmet." It's the hidden realm of death, it's where things are cast out for destruction
sheol - what we speak of holding the dead
hades - the Greek equivalent of sheol
Hades - the Greek mythological underworld
tartarus - used as a verb once in an analogy to the Titans, but for the angels that sinned
gehenna - where you cast the dead (or about to be dead) to be destroyed by fire
All very similar concepts, matched by the word "hell'
sheol - what we speak of holding the dead
hades - the Greek equivalent of sheol
Hades - the Greek mythological underworld
tartarus - used as a verb once in an analogy to the Titans, but for the angels that sinned
gehenna - where you cast the dead (or about to be dead) to be destroyed by fire
All very similar concepts, matched by the word "hell'
Lon
Well-known member
1) You cannot tell the whole church it is wrong. You can 'try.' When you get my views, they are not, after all, just my views. I tend to tote the orthodox line on most issues. Therefore "you are wrong" is a bit audacious.
2) I 'can' be wrong at times, but my theology is well-gelled AND yours isn't. You need to look to home, more often than you do.
3) Hyper-sensitive? :think: Perhaps, at times. Rather, I think you offend, perhaps without purpose, but it is clearly implied.
Such always comes from arrogance. I too, am arrogant, but I've spent a lot of years coming to my conclusions AND most of them, though well-thought out myself, are from the orthodox (right theology) position of the church. Annihilation is within my acceptance, but you are not going to talk me out of ECT nor are you correct 'we' are wrong. That is simply childish thinking. There are WAY too many of us and in many different denominations for you to have that kind of prowess OR authority. Because of that, presumptuous statements of feigned superiority must-necessarily have to be your problem and your problem projected upon others. Has to be.
And I showed you 'why' it wasn't true. You are attempting to make 'your' thinking the 'only' thinking in a pool of thoughts. Within the realm of Christian discussion, such as on TOL, there are orthodox (right theology) expressed, heterodox (perhaps acceptable by the church such as "annihilation" and heresy (completely rejected by the church militant). This topic, as mentioned, delves more into heterodoxy but those espousing heresy are expressing here as well. When in a conversation, the context will always be concerned with one or more of these contexts. If you miss the context, you would assume 'hypocrisy' without realizing you are incorrect.
"Implied" and strongly. Nice try, no distance. We are absolutely back to square one and you have fouled on this attempt, in shot-put terms.
Much better. "Seems" allows another to respond to you and it invite input for what 'seems' hypocritical. "This is hypocritical" is a declarative and is rather accusatory that does not invite dialogue and in this case, it was incorrect. Example: Mormons and Urantians will tell you that Jesus Christ is Lord and our Savior. Neither of them mean what you might think they mean. You and I likely fully agree that by Savior, we mean He is the substitutionary atonement for our sins. Neither Mormon nor Urantian do. They also do not see the Lord Jesus Christ as being God so their idea of 'Lord' is something they can attain to themselves. He is not 'much' different to them, than you and I. Therefore, you are not at all hypocritical, because the language may be the same, but the expression is heresy. "Agreeing" and you give assent to those heresies, probably through ignorance. The bad part of this is, by example, you calling a Christian 'hypocritical' when he/she is not at all, and you've made a serious blunder. This is the context of your accusation here is well. Just because words may be similar, you are not showing comprehension of the greater concern.
Rosenritter
New member
W2G, I've unblocked you, but you still sound the same. "illegitimate totality transfer of death" is not only without normal meaning, but an "because I declare so" isn't solid support.
Derf
Well-known member
Looking forward to it.
I'm not sure I can keep up with all the extra chatter going on, but I'll try.
Lon
Well-known member
:think: W2G is saying that if you disallow the idea that death can only mean one thing, then you've committed the illegitimate totality transfer fallacy regarding death. This is regarding Greek, but by it, it deals with translations as well:
See here for other problems with biblical understanding/interpretation as well.
You are granted your rebuttal towards me. I take it in stride. I'm still happy you defended atonement. I've also noticed a sincere heart that is seeking lately and I have seen progression in your understanding of scripture. This is all I'll say about the matter for now.
All respect,
- EE
I am no longer concerned with your assertion of what you "think" I believe. I again am at a measure of peace with you for now.
All respect,
- EE